Marantz AV7005 - Page 70

possibly?

"[C]ontingent of people," in this case, is a euphemism for lunatic fringe.

Non oversampling, resistor ladder multi bit DACs measure woefully (high THD, poor low level linearity, weak alias rejection or smeared time domain performance). That sort of reproduction may "sound better" to some people, but it is hardly accurate.

AJ

Yeah, we all know that absolute specs always tell us how good something sounds.

Well, if nearly the entire Denon AVR line for 2011 from the A100 ($2500) down to the 591 ($350) -- including the 3311CI on which the SR7005 is based -- were to use the same inexpensive AKM AK4358 DAC, would you think that decision the harmonious result of listening tests or the cold consequence of cost cutting measures?

No one outside of Denon knows the answer, but it does not look good in comparison to Onkyo/Integra, Yamaha, and Pioneer, all of which are using higher spec'd premium parts in their top of the line units.

AJ

Frankly, I don't care too much what the guts are as long as they're reliable, do what they're supposed to do, and sound OK to me.

"[H]ow good something sounds" is subject to all sorts of human biases that have nothing to do w/ accurate reproduction. Measurements are infinitely more reliable. To paraphrase John Dunlavy, no component can be more accurate than it measures.

AJ

I don't need a lecture about the potential difference between preference and accuracy. I'm well onto the fact that they may not be the same, and I'm OK with that.

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter what the numbers say, what the reviews say, or what an ABX test might reveal. What I care about is if I'm pleased with the sound...if I think it's better or worse than what else I have or had.

Let's drop this crap from this thread and concentrate on making use of what features it has, what tips and tricks others may offer, etc. I appologize for starting the crap by implying specs may not be the end-all.

That description is closer to the THX Loudness Plus mode.


It does.


Since Audyssey knows and calibrates the loudness of your system at its microphone, all the efficiency/gain issues are neutralized.

And yes it is doing more than looking at the position of the volume control--it is analyzing the audio signal continuously. However, the reason it still needs the offset controls you described in post 2049 is because the Dynamic Loudness circuit assumes the average level of the program is like a movie, typically -27dBFS. Music is often 10 dB higher than that, and depending on how you get your TV, could be anywhere. So if you reduce the volume control to maintain the same playback level as a movie (on average), the system thinks you are playing the program at lower level, so it the correction applied by DV is increased unnecessarily.

So in the end you are still "tuning by ear" to find the optimal DV reference offset for your senses. I found 0dB was fine for movies, but needed 5dB for music. Otherwise not only too much boomy bass, but too much surround boost.

If your AVR can normalize all the source gains, then you would be able to use the same DV offset all the time.

And I am not arguing that the AK4358 DAC is audibly inferior to any other. Measurably inferior, yes. Audibly inferior, no. Certain agenda driven posters in the Denon 4311CI/A100 thread could never appreciate that. I just think it shoddy that D&M Holdings chose a DAC seemingly because it would be inexpensive enough to include up & down the line. Call me impractical, but I respect an over engineered component that measures exceedingly well on the test bench.

AJ

thanks for posting that report (in the A100 thread), a lot of great info

Oh that's good to know, thanks. Think I will give it a test spin then.

Good explanation. I will go back and increase offsets where I feel appropriate, instead of turning it off altogether. Thanks!

thanks for sticking your head in and posting that roger... i too have had the same issues (overboosted surrounds, primarily) that others noted... i'll give it a bit more "play time" now and see what i get...

mz, post back results too... now i'm curious...

^^^

same for me - I'm going to rewatch Inception @ 5db offset. 0db offset delivered a bit too much umph from both my 18" Velo and dipole surrounds. I kept turning down the volume to keep my ears from bleeding! BTW, I've found listening to rock music @ 15db offset was much impoved (to my hairy ears).

As someone else has stated: I don't really care about these details; as long as it sounds good. I want to bet you that the Marantz outperforms the Integra 80.2, even though the 80.2 has 'better' DACs

Come again? Are you trying to say that the AV7005 outperforms the 80.2? If so, how? Magic? Groupthink? What is special about the AV7005 other than its price point and, seemingly, that it is not an Onkyo/Integra?

AJ

I have been reading through the forum but have not yet taken the time to post. I have owned the 8003 for about a year and have had the 7005 for about 2 weeks, so I thought I would give my 2 cents on the sound of the units and how they compare, at least to my ears in my system. My first concern is sound quality, and I have been using the 8003 with my Squeezebox Touch as my primary source for music, with an Oppo BDP-83 as the source for all other types of media (recently upgraded to the BDP-93).

When I bought the 8003, I was coming from a Bryston SP2, which was the best sounding pre/pro I had heard when I bought it (for music and basic surround -- other units were superior in the flexibility and surround capabilities). I had real reservations when I bought the 8003, but was pleasantly surprised when I learned that for my 2 channel music setup, it was easily 80-85% of the Bryston in sound quality, and vastly superior in its ability to decode the latest surround codecs. I have a fairly revealing system, and though the 8003 lacked the last bit of air and spacial queues the SP2 had, it was very musical.

On to the 7005. When I first hooked it up, it was apparent it was 'different' sounding than the 8003. It seemed a little bright at first, so I let it run 24/7 for about a week before I really tried to dial things in. Here are my impressions of the 2 units (2 channel music, using the internal DACs of the Marantz units):

1. Highs - more air with the 7005. I am happy to report that the initial brightness of the 7005 has disappeared. It is strange in that the 7005 definitely has more prominence in the highs, yet it is not bright or irritating. I have listened to it for hours at a time, sometimes at volumes much higher than necessary, and never did I tire of the sound. By comparison, the 8003 is a little softer in the highs, yet it does retain the openness of sound. Usually I associate more air with larger soundstage, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. I still give a slight edge to the 7005 here.

2. Mids - The 7005 is very open and clear. I would say the 7005 leans toward the cooler side of neutral, the 8003 to the warmer side. Difficult to say which is better. On some material, I preferred the 7005 (female vocals and acoustic guitar), and on other I preferred the 8003 (male vocals, 'dirty, grunge' guitar sounds). I would call this area a draw, and more personal preference than anything.

3. Lows - I have large tower main speakers (Tyler Acoustics D1s) that are pretty flat in my room down to about 30 Hz) but like to run them with a subwoofer (Chase CS 18.2). Running without the subwoofer engaged, it seemed to me the bass from the 7005 was slightly more articulate, slightly more defined. I would give a slight (very slight) edge to the 7005 here.

I don't consider the Squeezebox Touch a very good test for 2 channel analog listening (and I don't use it that way -- I always use the digital out) but I did try some comparisons for 2 channel analog music. Running in this setup, I would say I give a slight edge to the 8003. It lacks the last bit of air that the 7005 has, but it seems to give more body and 'oomph' to the music. The 7005 comes across as slightly thin in comparison. Again, these are not huge differences, and it would be nice to have a really good 2 channel analog input to use as a test, but hopefully this gives a little insight. Again, it seems to me the 8003 is a little warmer sounding.

One last item of note. With the 8003, I did not like Audyssey engaged when listening to music - it seems like it compressed things too much. However, with the 7005, I actually prefer listening to 2 channel music with Audyssey on. I'm not really sure why, though it seems like with Audyssey engaged, the music seems to have more 'body' to it (slightly warmer). I would definitely give the 7005 the edge with Audyssey engaged. Also, with movies, I again give a slight edge to the 7005 with its more open sound -- comes across as more dynamic on movies.

I could easily live with either unit. The 8003 has been a workhorse, and I have never had any problems -- it has performed flawlessly from day 1. The 7005 has been great so far, and I would expect nothing less from Marantz. Personally, I think I will keep the 7005 and sell the 8003 to a friend of mine -- he is really impressed with it. I think ultimately it comes down to personal preference. In a broad stroke, those who prefer air and detail, the 7005 would seem to be the choice. For those who prefer a warmer, full-bodied sound, the 8003 might be the better choice.

The DAC issue is of interest to me.

I almost decided not to get a Denon or Marantz unit this time because I wanted DAC's from Woflson or Burr Brown. But then I did some thinking.

I know how vital a good DAC is (and how it's implemented). I believe this unit uses a newer version of the Analog Devices DAC in my Denon avr from 2001. I always found the built-in DAC in that Denon avr3801 to sound very good, though it has been bested by the Burr Brown's used in my Denon dvd3910. However, I also had a Denon cd player with BurrBrown chips that did not sound as good as the avr's. So, I assume the DAC in this avp will be well-implemented by Marantz and sound great.

To the original post (anyone remember that in this long-winded thread?):
I too am replacing an Anthem AVM20 with a Marantz AV7005. That is, if I ever get it. I've been waiting nearly three weeks for one from an authorized dealer who claims his Marantz rep is still waiting for "it" to be shipped. A Marantz rep cannot get this unit? Is there a backorder problem or something? I can't get a straight answer from the local dealer (who happens to be an authorized Marantz dealer but doesn't stock Marantz products ).

I don't know for a fact, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Great review, thanks!

Don't forget that the AV7005 has a few other specific benefits that may or may not be important:
- More HDMI ports (and a front HDMI connector, that I really want)
- Dynamic Volume
- Capability of running overlaying Audessey and DPLIIx over Dolby TrueHD/DTS Master HD
- HDMI 1.4
- (Much) better networking options using DLNA
- Firmware updates via ethernet

At least... Those are why I decided to go for the AV7005

There could be. The place I bought mine from said his sold like hotcakes. I got one of the last ones from his first or second shipment..don't recall exactly. I think he said when those were gone it might be mid/late January until the next batch hits the streets. Quite literally on the slow boat from somewhere far away.

re read the thread and unless I missed it I want to ask a network question.

has anyone hooked up their 7005 to their network via a wireless connection? I cant get a cat-5 cable to it. i believe there is a wireless receiver that can pug into the back network port or can I use a wireless USB receiver?

any feedback would be great.

I have a marantz sr8001 that I am using as a preamp. Not considering 3d may be for another year or two. Would I gain anything to buy the av7005 now as far as sound quality goes? or would i be better off to upgrade my projector / processor at the same time in the future?
I have it connected to an emo xpa2 (fronts), xpa5(center/surr).
My speakers are 2xpolk rti a9, 4x rti a5 +csi a6.

I believe they are in short supply. I purchased mine from a dealer who gets 40 per shipment, and he was out. He's waiting for the next shipment which could be January.

The AV7005 seems to be the hot and hard to get product right now. That's why most sources seem to be charging full MSRP.

i have not (mine is connected to a hardwired switch), but there shouldn't be any reason why a wireless bridge would not work...

they are currently in stock at the big river... at a whole 99 cents off of msrp...

that's where i bought mine awhile ago...

unless the av7005 has a feature that you "need" or "want", imo, there's no real pressing reason to "upgrade" right now...

edit: or unless you are like me and you just want a new toy... nothing wrong with that either...

my gut tells me (not to mention a bunch of 'sperience), that in a properly controlled test, they'd be indistinguishable...

until the integra clicked, anyway...

So, basically, you are primitive man praying to the audio gods for good sound.

Outperform how?

In measured performance? Sure, I will take that bet.

In that nebulous characteristic otherwise known as "sound quality"? Surely, you jest. That would be like betting that vanilla is better than chocolate.

AJ