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Marantz AV7005 - Page 279

post #8341 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

I wouldn't hesitate to buy and use the AK4358 for the rest of my life. Good DACs have been transparent to human perception, in typical living room use, for a looooong time, despite what much of the audiophile press would have us believe.
With a SNR of 112 dB, and a THD+N of -94 dB, there's no problem with using this same design (for our application) for the rest of lives. [Although there will undoubtedly be smaller, more efficient, higher number of channel versions down the road that we will most likely switch to, but not because we need "better" sound.]

There's more to the sound than just the DACs, don't you think? The DACs are one part of the circuit. My uncle had my XO-3 (he helped design and produced it) apart and was picking up 60Hz (scoped) on the outputs because the chassis was apart and a power supply shield was removed. There's a lot more to a unit than the DACs.

HDMI seems particularly sensitive to ground loop occurrences. It must have something to do with their design.

My uncle also made some changes in one of my Van Alstine Model 3s (he helped design and produced them). It involved wire pathways and proximity (inductance) issues if I recall. It is the quieter of my Model 3s.

I’m not sure how sensitive the digital realm is, but HDMI can be finicky. I have to believe that design and quality of parts play a factor in transparency.
post #8342 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

"smiley face" EQ curve!

How many of you are old enough to remember the "Loudness button"? Do you really think most folk only engaged it when listening at quiet background levels? No way. 9 out of 10 left it on 24/7 and if asked who Fletcher and Munson were would probably respond, "Fletcher who?"

Too funny, In my car stereo days when I was younger I was guilty of both especially the smiley face EQ curve.
post #8343 of 9615
Pwz414, you need to ignore the Audyssey setup guidelines, (since they are based on typical scenarios), and instead follow the "How to best place the microphone when using very large line-array loudspeakers, in abnormally small rooms and at abnormally close listening distances" guide. Unfortunately I can't find such a guide (and I looked for you).smile.gif

You've probably already noticed how drastically different your speakers sound simply from standing up, instead of sitting, while listening, right? [Try listening to the sound of audience applause, for example] Your problem is your kind of speaker has an extremely small "sweet spot" which is not conducive to use for more than one listener, especially when used as close as you use them, which is not ideal (although it may very well sound spectacular in that one, perfect spot for that one listener).

Audyssey is not really geared for your situation and the closest thing I can find to them admitting it is this [Note: a planar design has a similar, although not identical, radiation pattern to your line array design]:

"Planar speakers can be a little tricky to measure because of the horizontal radiation pattern. I suggest playing with the mic height."

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/21033262-audyssey-processing-of-main-pre-out-vs-lfe

I would replace "tricky" with "close to impossible" for typical living room situations with more than one listening position, and this is especially true for your abnormally close listening distance (these sorts of speakers aren't really designed for).

If I were in your shoes, I'd devote the large array speakers to single person listening, sitting in the perfect center sweet spot, and buy and use a secondary set of speakers for when you have more than one listener in the room. Since the AV7005 can't easily store more than one speaker configuration, I'd either buy a second one for the alternate setup or forgo using Audyssey at all for one of the two setups.

If I were to use Audyssey for the line array speakers, I'd take all 8 measurenents from the exact same listening position, at exactly the same ear height I sit at, which I would measure very carefully with a tape measure [this isn't so critical for other speakers] in a straight line between the left and right ear, a roughly six inch line. I also would accept that this would be for single person use only.

My 2 cents.
Edited by m. zillch - 7/6/12 at 10:41am
post #8344 of 9615
FWIW, about eighteen years ago, I had the privilege of being able to wander the Center for the Performing Arts concert hall in San Jose, CA with a sound pressure meter during a orchestral dress rehearsal. Two notes came of the listening experience, SPL was in the 70-78 range and second, there was no sweet spot.

When sitting and mentally analyzing perceived sound characteristics at varying venue seating locations, I noted there was an airy quality to the sound as opposed to a focused sweet spot. Due to this listen experience, I now toe main speakers out an inch or two, to replicate the airy quality of the venue which more accurately replicates the live listening experience of this concert hall. Noted, yes, this is in conflict with creating the sweet spot, listening experience which I was taught as a lad.

(Note; I was the only one dressed up at the dress rehearsal.)
post #8345 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Pwz414, you need to ignore the Audyssey setup guidelines, based on typical scenarios, and instead follow the "How to best place the microphone when using very large line-array loudspeakers, in abnormally small rooms and at abnormally close listening distances" guide. Unfortunately I can't find such a guide (and I looked for you).smile.gif
You've probably already noticed how drastically different your speakers sound simply from standing up, instead of sitting, while listening, right? [Try listening to the sound of audience applause, for example] Your problem is your kind of speaker has an extremely small "sweet spot" which is not conducive to use for more than one listener, especially when used as close as you use them, which is not ideal (although it may very well sound spectacular in that one, perfect spot for that one listener).
Audyssey is not really geared for your situation and the closest thing I can find to them admitting it is this [Note: a planar design has a similar, although not identical, radiation pattern to your line array design]:
"Planar speakers can be a little tricky to measure because of the horizontal radiation pattern. I suggest playing with the mic height."

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/21033262-audyssey-processing-of-main-pre-out-vs-lfe
I would replace "tricky" with "close to impossible" for typical living room situations with more than one listening position, and this is especially true for your abnormally close listening distance (these sorts of speakers aren't really designed for).
If I were in your shoes, I'd devote the large array speakers to single person listening, sitting in the perfect center sweet spot, and buy and use a secondary set of speakers for when you have more than one listener in the room. Since the AV7005 can't easily store more than one speaker configuration, I'd either buy a second one for the alternate setup or forgo using Audyssey at all for one of the two setups.
If I were to use Audyssey for the line array speakers, I'd take all 8 measurenents from the exact same listening position, at exactly the same ear height I sit at, which I would measure very carefully with a tape measure [this isn't so critical for other speakers] in a straight line between the left and right ear, a roughly six inch line. I also would accept that this would be for single person use only.
My 2 cents.

Thanks for the advice, Zillch. I will give it a shot with all measurements in the same place, but will that not be a bit redundant? Since the listening position is already so small I've not measured more than 3 feet in any direction from it. It only made sense to try and correct for the area where listeners will be. My initial results were actually quite good for HT. I'm going to cut the XO-3 out of the loop tonight and give Audyssey a clean look at the subs in .1 format. I foresee good results.

I disagree that the lines have a small sweet spot, they sound good on either side of the love seat... Best dead center, of course. Also, the sound changes minimally based on seated or standing. For me it's a bit more evident when I stand because my ears start to reach the end of the tweeter array, but if I move up and down the image just copies itself over and over until I reach the end of the line. The closer to the speaker the more it stays the same. If I do that in the back of the room reflections are more apparent and change based on head level is greater. I would like to be in a bigger room and farther from the lines, but that will have to wait. I have heard three systems in my time that I flat out thought sounded better than mine. The room was always a huge factor in my estimation. I had a chance to get my old three way system out of that room and set up in a proper room and the improvement was incredible. One day I’ll get the lines in a nice space. I just hope I’m strong willed enough to keep my hearing that long. I have a tough time keeping the volume down.

Thanks again for the feed-back smile.gif
-Pat
post #8346 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

FWIW, about eighteen years ago, I had the privilege of being able to wander the Center for the Performing Arts concert hall in San Jose, CA with a sound pressure meter during a orchestral dress rehearsal. Two notes came of the listening experience, SPL was in the 70-78 range and second, there was no sweet spot.
When sitting and mentally analyzing perceived sound characteristics at varying venue seating locations, I noted there was an airy quality to the sound as opposed to a focused sweet spot. Due to this listen experience, I now toe main speakers out an inch or two, to replicate the airy quality of the venue which more accurately replicates the live listening experience of this concert hall. Noted, yes, this is in conflict with creating the sweet spot, listening experience which I was taught as a lad.
(Note; I was the only one dressed up at the dress rehearsal.)

That's where my preconceived notions WOULD hurt my objectivity. Just seeing the speakers toed out would hurt my brain. It’s doing what you like though, so good for you smile.gif
post #8347 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwz414 View Post

Just seeing the speakers toed out would hurt my brain.

Since it's toed out only an inch or two, maybe it won't hurt.......much. tongue.gif

It's really weird, you lose the sweet spot, but due to the airy quality gained, I find myself pawing the air because it's such a neutral sound.

(Currently I have a pair of Sennheiser HD650's clamped to my ears; Van Halen: "Drop Dead Legs")
post #8348 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by pwz414 View Post

Aside from all this bickering I’ve tried to view your build thread. No photos, is the problem on my end?

Uh yeh Chris ... your build photos aren't displaying for me either. confused.gif

dadgum apple... mad.gif when they killed mobileme, it killed my gallery.... teach me to be an apple wonk.... redface.gif

they'll be back soon... smile.gif might take me a bit to re-upload everything to a new site (and figure out which pics go where) but they'll get there... ugh... that's gonna be a lot of work... frown.gif

if anyone still cares, pictures are fixed in my build thread....

took awhile, but it was fun to relive the journey... smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by patgilm View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

"smiley face" EQ curve!

How many of you are old enough to remember the "Loudness button"? Do you really think most folk only engaged it when listening at quiet background levels? No way. 9 out of 10 left it on 24/7 and if asked who Fletcher and Munson were would probably respond, "Fletcher who?"

Too funny, In my car stereo days when I was younger I was guilty of both especially the smiley face EQ curve.

weren't we all... smile.gif

and darn right i left that loudness button on all the time... biggrin.gif
post #8349 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

FWIW, about eighteen years ago, I had the privilege of being able to wander the Center for the Performing Arts concert hall in San Jose, CA with a sound pressure meter during a orchestral dress rehearsal. Two notes came of the listening experience, SPL was in the 70-78 range and second, there was no sweet spot.

When sitting and mentally analyzing perceived sound characteristics at varying venue seating locations, I noted there was an airy quality to the sound as opposed to a focused sweet spot. Due to this listen experience, I now toe main speakers out an inch or two, to replicate the airy quality of the venue which more accurately replicates the live listening experience of this concert hall. Noted, yes, this is in conflict with creating the sweet spot, listening experience which I was taught as a lad.

(Note; I was the only one dressed up at the dress rehearsal.)

i like this post... smile.gif thinking outside of the box never hurts, and it's not like trying different positions/toe-in with your speakers costs money... tongue.gif

my mains are toed in hard... they cross in front of the "dead center sweet spot"... this actually results (in my room, with my speakers, etc.) in a "wider sweet spot" (making both listeners happy wink.gif ), with very little (if any) "bad effect"... but i only know this cuz i tried it...

y'never know until you try... worst thing that happens is that you move them back to where they were...
post #8350 of 9615
I generally use toe-in that crosses slightly in front of the MLP, as well. As many of you might already know, it provides a principal called "time / intensity trading". As people sitting to the left of center are therefor closer to the left speaker, it becomes louder due to its closer range, however this is compensated for because they are also now more on-axis to the right speakers output and are farther off axis to the left speaker's output.
---

It's funny how speaker placement, (including tiny changes in toe in and width) causes profound changes to the sound, yet people are often more obsessive about the speaker placement's looks and rather unimportant differences like what amplifiers, wires, and DACs to use, often being gladly willing to pay big money to address those trivial areas yet the one that actually counts is totally free . Go figure.
post #8351 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

...and rather unimportant differences like what amplifiers, wires, and DACs to use, often being gladly willing to pay big money to address those trivial areas yet the one that actually counts is totally free . Go figure.

After suffering from a serious bout of audio nervosa, I cured myself by asking the question: In real terms, how will I be using the system; half blasted on white wine while on the carpeted floor with a loved one and a Yahtzee cup in hand or on the sofa, by myself, constipated looking with the amp turned up too loud, trying to find ethereal sonic reflections in the venue of an orchestral recording that I had never been to? And when I realized that the former won out over the latter, I was cured.

The good news, I still have my twenty year old, overpriced speaker cables (peace of mind), so in essence, being that they're fully amortized, they're now free and major zip cord providers around the world can eat their hearts out cause you can't beat free and zip cord or over priced speakers cables, neither go out of style.

biggrin.gif
post #8352 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The AV7005 successor will be the AV7007 and just as was the case with the 7005/3311CI similarity, so to will the 7007 be similar to the 3313CI. AFAIK, it's not expected to be released until early fall.

Am I missing something on the Denon site? The 3313CI doesn't have XT32? Interesting. So one of the main features that we wanted to see in a replacement for the 7005, XT32, may not actually be present in the 7007, which is the replacement for the 7005.

That's annoying --- or I guess maybe now I don't feel bad about not upgrading -- not sure...
post #8353 of 9615
It seems that XT32 is a pro-installer thingy or you have to pay big bucks for the privilege of self-installing and the best one can expect to come with the receiver is the XT version.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/avr-audio

"--- or I guess maybe now I don't feel bad about not upgrading -- not sure..."

You're on your own with that worry. tongue.gif
post #8354 of 9615
The XT32 and Pro versions of Audyssey are completely separate. XT32 is available in some Denon receivers, including their top-of-the-line 4311, which is currently available at substantial discounts in anticipation of it being replaced by a new model later this year.
post #8355 of 9615
^^^

From my reading, for lesser models that come with XT, one needs a professional installer if they want XT32 installed or pay Audyssey a boatload of cash to obtain a license and do a self-install. Additionally, from the Audyssy site, only a few, higher end units come with XT32.

confused.gif

http://www.audyssey.com/products/?f=all-installer-ready

http://www.audyssey.com/products?field_multeq_flavor_value[]=MultEQ+XT32&tid[]=28&installable[]=1&pid=44&ptype=5

What would you suggest if one wanted to have XT32 installed on their receiver?
Edited by BeeMan458 - 7/7/12 at 7:54pm
post #8356 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

What would you suggest if one wanted to have XT32 installed on their receiver?
I think the simplest method would be to place one of these on top of the receiver.smile.gif
post #8357 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

What would you suggest if one wanted to have XT32 installed on their receiver?

Buy an AVR with MultEQ XT32 installed.

AJ
post #8358 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

^^^
From my reading, for lesser models that come with XT, one needs a professional installer if they want XT32 installed or pay Audyssey a boatload of cash to obtain a license and do a self-install. Additionally, from the Audyssy site, only a few, higher end units come with XT32.
confused.gif
http://www.audyssey.com/products/?f=all-installer-ready
http://www.audyssey.com/products?field_multeq_flavor_value[]=MultEQ+XT32&tid[]=28&installable[]=1&pid=44&ptype=5
What would you suggest if one wanted to have XT32 installed on their receiver?

You're confusing XT, XT32, and the Pro Kit. XT and XT32 only come installed on various AVRs (ie. you cannot upgrade an AVR to XT32) so if you want XT32 you have to buy an AVR with it installed. While the Pro Kit can be used on those XT and XT32 AVRs that are Pro Installer capable; however, it uses whatever version is on that particular Pro Installer ready AVR (ie. XT or XT32) as it simply provides a means of "tweaking" the on board Audyssey version, rather than providing it's own separate "Pro" version of Audyssey.
post #8359 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwz414 View Post

There's more to the sound than just the DACs, don't you think? The DACs are one part of the circuit. My uncle had my XO-3 (he helped design and produced it) apart and was picking up 60Hz (scoped) on the outputs because the chassis was apart and a power supply shield was removed. There's a lot more to a unit than the DACs.
HDMI seems particularly sensitive to ground loop occurrences. It must have something to do with their design.
My uncle also made some changes in one of my Van Alstine Model 3s (he helped design and produced them). It involved wire pathways and proximity (inductance) issues if I recall. It is the quieter of my Model 3s.
I’m not sure how sensitive the digital realm is, but HDMI can be finicky. I have to believe that design and quality of parts play a factor in transparency.[/quote

When you measured the 60hz on the output, are you sure you weren't introducing the 60hz with the scope probe? Best to use a differential probe in this case. Remember every time you measure something you will introduce an unintended load/coupling to the circuit being measured.
post #8360 of 9615
I didn't measure it. My uncle did. He moved his hand over the power supply and the 60Hz dropped out.
post #8361 of 9615
Hi All,

Love my new AV7005 which is replacing an Anthem D2 (which was upgraded from a D1)

I'm having problems getting AirPlay going. Menu says my firmware is up to date and there are no additional features listed so I assume I should be good to go. (???)

But I look on my iTunes on my PC (Win7/64) and iTunes on my iPhone 4s and I don't see any AirPlay icon. (box with intruding triangle)

I've updated everything and I've looked arounds settings and preferences but I'm missing something.

Should I see any reference to AirPlay in the AV7005's menu? Or does it just show up when you activate AP from iTunes?

Also, I've googled AirPlay but all they say is to click the AP icon which I don't see.

Can anyone give me a hand? Thanks! Ken
post #8362 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenLand View Post

Hi All,
Love my new AV7005 which is replacing an Anthem D2 (which was upgraded from a D1)
I'm having problems getting AirPlay going. Menu says my firmware is up to date and there are no additional features listed so I assume I should be good to go. (???)
But I look on my iTunes on my PC (Win7/64) and iTunes on my iPhone 4s and I don't see any AirPlay icon. (box with intruding triangle)
I've updated everything and I've looked arounds settings and preferences but I'm missing something.
Should I see any reference to AirPlay in the AV7005's menu? Or does it just show up when you activate AP from iTunes?
Also, I've googled AirPlay but all they say is to click the AP icon which I don't see.
Can anyone give me a hand? Thanks! Ken

I had to add the feature manually on mine. The instructions were on a piece of paper inside the box. I think it was entering the serial and code in the right menu.
The firmware and enable feature menus are different options if I recall correctly.
Once you have the feature enabled, you may have to check the firmware and see if there is a requires update afterwards; on mine, I remember there was, bu it may have a coicedence.
To use it, all I had to is conect an Ethernet cable and nothing more. The unit has DHCP enabled by default, so it should grab an IP address automatically.
Depending on the iOS device, you should see the Marantz on the airplay list when you double press on the home button and go the volume section.
The Marantz should switch automatically to Network and should see the GUI on your display.

Good luck
post #8363 of 9615
@kenland -

Unlike the X006 and newer models, Airplay does not come preinstalled on the 7005 so you must do a firmware "upgrade" (vice "update").

http://shop.marantz.com/Air-Play-Upgrade-W1.aspx
post #8364 of 9615
Thanks guys, mine says it has the latest firmwae but when I chooes ADD NEW FEATURE it says:
"There is no feature that can be added now."
[Upgrade Status] ID :

So the ID: is blank. If I click on [Upgrade Status] the screen switches to:

-AirPlay

But I can't select it and it doesn't show up on any iTunes device. I guess I'll call support when I get a chance.

Thanks,
Ken
post #8365 of 9615
post #8366 of 9615
Does anyone know if it's possible to disable UPnP/DLNA media rendering in the AV-7005, and if so, how?

Here's why I'm asking:

My AV7005 is connected via Ethernet to my LAN. I also have a NAS drive made by Synology (DS212j), which hosts my iTunes library. I put the library on the NAS drive so I could access it when my computer is off or asleep.

Synology has an iPad app called DS Audio for viewing the music library and controlling playback (this is necessary because iTunes on iOS devices can't recognize libraries on NAS drives).

In DS Audio, I select the AV7005 as the output for AirPlay streaming.

It works, but with two really annoying issues:

1) You're supposed to be able to move to a new location in a song by dragging the playback head, but this doesn't work with AAC files, only mp3. Synology's documentation says AAC is supported, but when I contacted tech support, they responded with an infuriating 'at least mp3’s work which we think is okay and it’s something we are improving.'

2) Sometimes DS Audio loses control of playback, so when you hit 'pause', nothing happens. To stop playback, I have to hit the 'stop' button on the AV-7005 remote, and this breaks the network connection with the iPad (which then pops up a menu asking you to select an output). Also, at this point the Air Play icon in DS Audio disappears.

Synology tech support told me that issue #2 is caused by a conflict between Air Play and the AV-7005's UPnP/DLNA rendering (which also results in the AV7005 being listed twice in the output lists on the iPad). They said the solution is to disable UPnP/DLNA rendering in the AV-7005.

I searched the Marantz manual, the Outlaw Audio manual, and the web, and haven't found out if this is possible, much less how to do it.

(Synology also recommended streaming using their own media renderer to send audio to the AV-7005, but that was even buggier than Air Play.)

I don't know if this is relevant to the issue at hand, but here's some info about my network:

In my [hardware] router, I reserved IP addresses for the devices in my LAN, including the AV-7005. If I understood the router instructions correctly, even with reserved addresses it's still functioning as a DHCP server, and therefore I should leave the AV-7005 set to DHCP. Is this correct, or should I turn off DHCP in the AV-7005 and set it up manually?

Thanks in advance!
post #8367 of 9615
UpNP is enabled on the AVR and AFAIK, there is no way to disable it. If the "reserved" address assigned in the router is actually getting assigned to the AVR, you can leave DHCP set to the default of ON (although you should be able to confirm this using Manual Setup --> Network Setup ---> Network Connecting).
Edited by jdsmoothie - 7/17/12 at 4:27am
post #8368 of 9615
I Think that for installing airplay you first have to register for airplay on the marantz site.
post #8369 of 9615
When will Marantz upgrade their Pre/Pro it has been three years and they are getting long in the tooth especialy when compared with Integra DHC 80.3

Here is what they need

THX® Ultra2 Plus™

11.4-channel pre-outs with DTS Neo:X™ 11-channel

Cisco Linksys' SimpleTap technology

Audyssey MultEQ® XT32 room equalization with multi-channel upmixing from DTS Neo:X™, Audyssey DSX®, and Dolby® Pro Logic® IIz

An additional HDMI® output to enable 1080p playback in a second zone

InstaPrevue™ picture-in-picture video input preview and selection technology

Extra HDMI inputs to support 3D Video plus Dolby® TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio™ (8+1 inputs on all three models)

Bluetooth 3.0 and aptX® wireless audio streaming via optional adapter

Dual Core Video Engine with HQV Vida (1080p) and Marvell Qdeo™ (4K) Processing

ISF (Imaging Science Foundation) Video Calibration for Optimal Video Performance
post #8370 of 9615
New higher end AVRs and pre-pros due out later this fall. smile.gif
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