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Marantz AV7005 - Page 312

post #9331 of 9615
Your neighbor's assessment, "It's just the low bass that's the problem" is incorrect. They can't identify a 98 Hz tone from a 122 Hz tone any more than you or I could, [by ear alone that is, and without any reference tones to go by]. It is the low and mid bass that travels through walls, and short of you turning down the overall bass in general, making your music thin and tinny, you can't fix the problem by EQ.
post #9332 of 9615
Quit judging me and actually help me. Yes, I agree that mid bass can travel through walls, but not as much as low bass. The lower you go, the worse it is. There is no cut/dry frequency. It's a gradual progression that gets worse as the frequency gets lower. There are no problems with them hearing the music. It's just the shaking from the lowest frequencies. They don't complain about hearing any notes - it's just the shaking. This probably has to do with the fact that the sub is sitting on the floor. I never had any complaints before the sub.
post #9333 of 9615
^^
Ensure that Audyssey Dyn EQ is set to OFF as that will boost the bass at lower master volume levels. You could then try adjusting the Tone Control "Bass" setting (p. 73 OM). And lastly, if you want to consider an upgrade to your 7005, the new Denon X4000 (replaces 3313CI) comes with both Audyssey MultEQ XT32 as well as Audyssey LFC.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/audyssey-lfc
post #9334 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by xirtam2005 View Post

Quit judging me and actually help me. .
I'm not judging you, I'm judging how sound propagates from one room to another. I already gave you a link to the true ways of how to deal with it, but I guess they didn't fit your preconceived notions as to how it should be addressed, if you even read it.
Quote:
There are no problems with them hearing the music. It's just the shaking from the lowest frequencies. They don't complain about hearing any notes - it's just the shaking.

I know what is causing the problem. It is called "the bass". I'm sorry you have it locked in your mind that it is exclusively due to the subwoofer. You are wrong, but obviously there is no way to convince you. They only started to complain once you exacerbated the problem by adding a sub, sure, but if you instead bought very large front speakers (that didn't need a sub), you'd still get the same complaints from them.
Quote:
This probably has to do with the fact that the sub is sitting on the floor.

For the most part, this is false. [Do we not hear our neighbors' coughs if they jump into the air before they cough?!] It has to do with the sound waves in the air in your room, specifically the bass, exciting the walls, ceilings, and/or floor. If you somehow built a magnetic suspension for your sub to levitate, float, above the ground, so it had no physical coupling to any room surface, you'd still have the same problem.
Edited by m. zillch - 4/29/13 at 7:20am
post #9335 of 9615
Regarding Audyssey LFC.

I'd like to learn more about LFC from a person who has critically and objectively measured what it does exactly, rather than just reading the typical marketing fluff from the manufacturer, but until I read otherwise, I'm personally of the mind that it does one of two things:

A) Helps reduce noise to the neighbors at the expense of audibly degrading the music in an unacceptable way.

or

B) Has little effect in reducing noise to the neighbors, while maintaining reasonable fidelity.

If anyone here has any links to people who have measured what it does, including the amount of noise reduction in the neighbor's room, please speak up.
Edited by m. zillch - 4/30/13 at 8:33am
post #9336 of 9615
^^
Sure ... just ask in either the Denon 4520CI or Marantz 8801 Owners threads as both models feature it and at least one owner in the 4520CI thread has commented on its effectiveness as working as advertised ..... wink.gif
post #9337 of 9615
^How accomodating of their neighbor to allow some mic'd test runs using an RTA, or perhaps just an SPL meter, to determine the effectiveness of the circuit in reducing noise. [Not that I've actually been able to find this post you speak of.]
Edited by m. zillch - 4/30/13 at 8:31am
post #9338 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

lfc "works"... however, it also "works" in the room...

Chris is one of the few people here I pay any attention to regarding subjective evaluations. Looks like my suspicions mentioned earlier, regarding LFC, have some support.
Edited by m. zillch - 4/30/13 at 8:35am
post #9339 of 9615
Just bought a used AV7005 and hook up with Oppo 95. Using the 7.1 bypass mode of AV7005 . Is there anyway to control the volume with AV7005 when using 7.1 bypass? Any inputs and advice is welcomed!
post #9340 of 9615
You want advice? Don't use the multi channel analog in on the AV7005, use HDMI. [At least I think that's what you are talking about.]

Oh, and those reviews which mentioned the DACs in the Oppo are fantastic? What they failed to tell you is the DACs in the AV7005 are indistinguishably just as good to the human ear, and by using them instead, you can also use important processing within the AV7005 such as Audyssey auto calibration and room correction, which you will be locked out of by using the multi Ch analog ins.

Reviews of DAC's, including the vast majority published in almost all audio magazines, are completely worthless and without any scientific validity, because besides being "sighted" [ meaning not blind/ double blind, so they take no steps to preclude expectation bias] they pretty much never take into account that the "fixed" output level of various designs often varies*, and humans are incapable of not being swayed by that, often at a subconscious level, misconstruing it as "quality" not "quantity", especially when the difference is small, say on the order of 1 dB or less.

All scientific literature published in scholarly journals, on the other hand, such as the AES, do take these things into consideration, so if you want to learn more, read them instead.


*Don't trust manufacturers' specs regarding output level. Even though you may find, for example, two CD players or DAC's claiming "2.0 V output for a 0 dBFS signal", in truth they often are higher or lower than the stated value. by a significant amount which is most definitely audible and prone to tripping up any casual attempts to compare the two fairly, without some means of level matching them beforehand, using instrumentation.
Edited by m. zillch - 5/2/13 at 12:53am
post #9341 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

You want advice? Don't use the multi channel analog in on the AV7005, use HDMI. [At least I think that's what you are talking about.]

Oh, and those reviews which mentioned the DACs in the Oppo are fantastic? What they failed to tell you is the DACs in the AV7005 are indistinguishably just as good to the human ear, and by using them instead, you can also use important processing within the AV7005 such as Audyssey auto calibration and room correction, which you will be locked out of by using the multi Ch analog ins.

Reviews of DAC's, including the vast majority published in almost all audio magazines, are completely worthless and without any scientific validity, because besides being "sighted" [ meaning not blind/ double blind, so they take no steps to preclude expectation bias] they pretty much never take into account that the "fixed" output level of various designs often varies*, and humans are incapable of not being swayed by that, often at a subconscious level, misconstruing it as "quality" not "quantity", especially when the difference is small, say on the order of 1 dB or less.

All scientific literature published in scholarly journals, on the other hand, such as the AES, do take these things into consideration, so if you want to learn more, read them instead.


*Don't trust manufacturers' specs regarding output level. Even though you may find, for example, two CD players or DAC's claiming "2.0 V output for a 0 dBFS signal", in truth they often are higher or lower than the stated value. by a significant amount which is most definitely audible and prone to tripping up any casual attempts to compare the two fairly, without some means of level matching them beforehand, using instrumentation.

Thanks for your opinion on the matter. What I don't understand is when I use auto setup, it gave me some far out results like my subwoofer dis. is 25ft as the real dis. is only 14ft. away! Since I am REALLY new to Audyssey auto calibration, do I measure it with my Oppo 95 HDMI plug in? Or does it make any different? Please advice!

Alex:)
post #9342 of 9615
Thanks for your opinion on the matter. What I don't understand is when I use auto setup, it gave me some far out results like my subwoofer dis. is 25ft as the real dis. is only 14ft. away! Since I am REALLY new to Audyssey auto calibration, do I measure it with my Oppo 95 HDMI plug in? Or does it make any different? Please advice!

Alex:)[/quote] lots of info here on AVS with regards to audessey and calibration etc. My recommendation is do like i did and read as much as you can. This is probably my 3rd post on this site lol but tons of stickies that ive lurked and read and explains so much and will answer questions you don't even have yet. Just quickly though, due to low frequency propagation etc etc, measuring 25ft on a sub vice 14ft is completely normal (your AVR is automatically compensating for time delays.
post #9343 of 9615
It is not uncommon for Audyssey's reported distance to the sub to be greater than the actual measured distance, mostly due to electrical delays in the sub signal, which are, and should, be taken into account. Do not override Audyssey's "distance" findings, which more properly should be called "delay".
post #9344 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by richmond5 View Post

Thanks for your opinion on the matter. What I don't understand is when I use auto setup, it gave me some far out results like my subwoofer dis. is 25ft as the real dis. is only 14ft. away! Since I am REALLY new to Audyssey auto calibration, do I measure it with my Oppo 95 HDMI plug in? Or does it make any different? Please advice!

Alex:)

Doesn't make any difference.
post #9345 of 9615
Anyone thinking of replacing their AV7005 with one of the new Denon X4000's? Someone please talk me out of it. I'd love to have XT32, I've heard it's amazing.
post #9346 of 9615
There are a few 4311CI owners who made that upgrade a couple of years ago and glad they did for the improved audio fidelity offered by XT32 and in at least one case, the owner was able to get rid of his external amp to power his 4-ohm speakers, although the 4311CI and 4520CI are designed to power 4-ohm speakers while the X4000 is not.
post #9347 of 9615
Is anyone experiencing new handchake problems with your SR7005 and FIOS? i had about a two month run with no problems until Sunday (twice) and yesterday (once). Had to unplug the FIOS STB and let it rest.
post #9348 of 9615
HDMI sux.

The main reason I bought the AV7005 is because it has four component video ins, that's a lot (more than the AV8801, which costs about twice as much, for example) so in a pinch I can always use component if HDMI handshake problems come up, and with every new firmware and every new device added, including what cable box I'm issued, that becomes a new possible threat each time.

I wont consider upgrading to the X4000, or any other unit, unless I can get (keep) 4 component ins.
post #9349 of 9615
post #9350 of 9615
^Thanks. I lived with a hodge-podge of kludgey boxes as work arounds, which included a unit analogous to that Monoprice device, for a long time, but the thing is, even if you program it all into your master remote so it seems to switch seamlessly between sources, as I had, you still don't get on screen display confirmation prompts when you switch between inputs, like you do with a receiver or prepro with OSD overlay. That's important to me since I can't see my electronic stack's front panel displays in my projection theater room.
Edited by m. zillch - 5/8/13 at 7:18am
post #9351 of 9615
Well, I am feeling much better today. I have finally laid to rest all my aspirations to "upgrade'" from the AV 7005 to the 8801. I made a whole bunch of phone calls yesterday on my day off. I called Marantz authorized dealers all over the country, and anybody else I thought might possibly have some input on the matter. The last phone call I made this morning..... was the one I should have made in the first place. Hint ! Hint !

Due to the fact that I don't use any networking features, don't have two subwoofers, have only a 5.1 system, just bought a new Panny that is NOT 4K compatible, I will continue to enjoy my AV 7005.

Yes, the "better" DAC's and the Audyssey X 32 or whatever it is, would have made the audio some better. But for at least a couple more years, I will continue to enjoy the 7005. The only fault I do have with it is that at higher SPL's, the highs can be a little fatiguing. But alot of that is my Sierra One bookshelfs, and also my Halo amp. I love em both to death, but they are both very neutral.
post #9352 of 9615
Hi I have 7005 with a Rotel RMB 1095 powering my monitor audio silvers. I am planning to buy the 803diamonds for my main speakers. Has anyone used the 7005 with 803s ? I f so could you pl provide me your input.
post #9353 of 9615
Here's some input. If you find a person who says a particular preamp (or prepro) will pair well, or poorly, with a given set of speakers, then you have found a person who has a poor understanding of what is and isn't important in audio reproduction and you should dismiss them immediately. Also, if you have found an audio magazine or reviewer which makes similar claims, then you should dismiss them too, for the same reason.

The room correction software inside the preamp (Audyssey XT) may (or may not) be good for a particular room, but what speakers you mate with it hardly matters, compared to the room itself.

One might also have concerns about the audibility of the inherent electronic hiss, if one had exceptionally efficient speakers, but the 90 dB SPL 1m/1W spec of the 803's shouldn't be a problem with the AV7005's fairly low noise level..

One may also not like the target frequency response curve XT shoots for (although there is some degree of tweaking it), but that should be fairly close, XT prepro to XT prepro, regardless of prepro brand. When people do claim to hear differences, it is most likely due to differences in their exact microphone positioning when they were calibrating the system, and possibly some other settings [e.g. "HT EQ"}, but not so much "Denon sounds bright/Marantz sounds dull", or whatever they'll claim. The frequency response (tonal balance) of the AV7005 preamp circuit itself is perfectly flat (neutral) as one would expect of any good preamp.
Edited by m. zillch - 5/11/13 at 10:23am
post #9354 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by rthotapalli View Post

Hi I have 7005 with a Rotel RMB 1095 powering my monitor audio silvers. I am planning to buy the 803diamonds for my main speakers. Has anyone used the 7005 with 803s ? I f so could you pl provide me your input.

You'd be better off asking this in a Rotel thread. smile.gif Speakers and amps interact. Speakers and SSPs don't.
post #9355 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by globalgreg View Post

Anyone thinking of replacing their AV7005 with one of the new Denon X4000's? Someone please talk me out of it. I'd love to have XT32, I've heard it's amazing.

If you have a difficult room, I would not even try talking you out of it. XT32 did manage to get rid of a few bass dips that the XT equipped AV7005 could not do for me.
post #9356 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

^How accomodating of their neighbor to allow some mic'd test runs using an RTA, or perhaps just an SPL meter, to determine the effectiveness of the circuit in reducing noise. [Not that I've actually been able to find this post you speak of.]

I only have a RS digital SPL meter. What measurements would you need for your evaluation? So far I have only tried it on and off and in the room it does not seem to sound different. I have not crank it up above the default containment setting of 4, maximum is 7.
post #9357 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by avman09 View Post

If you have a difficult room, I would not even try talking you out of it. XT32 did manage to get rid of a few bass dips that the XT equipped AV7005 could not do for me.

I have a very difficult room. I know I need to do some room treatments but the room is so small that it's not that easy. I've got a DSPeaker Anti-Mode for my sub but my sub (Epik Empire) just doesn't hit like it should. I wonder if I replaced the Anti-Mode with XT32 I'd get better results.
post #9358 of 9615
AVman09, here's what I'd do:

Place the RS SPL meter on a rigid surface, ideally a tripod aiming straight up at about ear height from a seated position. Mark the tripod feet positions on the floor with tape so you can move the setup to another room yet replicate this exact location, if need be, later.

Set it to its most sensitive range (I've only worked with their analog meter, but I assume the digital one works similarly) and turn on A-weighting or C-weighting and leave it set that way for the duration of the test.

Play a steady state tone, a sine wave, of say 120Hz [intentionally a little above the subwoofer's range] in the main room, loudly enough such that the SPL in the adjacent room reads it easily well above the ambient room noise by at least 10 dB, or preferably even more. [The "neighbors" room, or it could simply be your own adjacent room with the door shut, which I assume would be easier to pull off, although it's not as ideal]. Record the level by writing it down. [Turn off any extraneous noise generators like AC/furnace/refrigerator, fans, DVR hard drives, etc. and shut the windows, obviously.]

Turn on the LFC circuit and record the amount of sound reduction, in dB, as you switch between its (7, did you say?) levels in the far room, while playing the steady tone in the main listening room.

Now without changing the master volume control on the receiver [did you get the x4000, or some other?] measure what amount of sound reduction occurs in the main listening room, also for the 7 setting levels. You will of course need to reset the scale you are working with on the SPL meter, since now being in the the main room it will probably be off scale otherwise. Mark the tripod feet with tape marks on the floor here too.

You might want to also repeat the entire test but instead using a frequency in the sub's range, say 70 Hz or so, so we can see what it does there too.

This test will show us how much the LFC circuit reduces the level to our neighbors, at its various settings, and how it might be different from us simply lowering the master volume level ourselves, or at least that of the sub signal, if that's what it mostly does.

Thanks for your effort.

P.S. There are various sources online to download sine wave test tones at any frequency you choose, if you don't have them already at hand. Here's an example:
http://www.audiocheck.net/audiofrequencysignalgenerator_sinetone.php
Edited by m. zillch - 5/16/13 at 9:13am
post #9359 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

AVman09, here's what I'd do:

Place the RS SPL meter on a rigid surface, ideally a tripod aiming straight up at about ear height from a seated position. Mark the tripod feet positions on the floor with tape so you can move the setup to another room yet replicate this exact location, if need be, later.

Set it to its most sensitive range (I've only worked with their analog meter, but I assume the digital one works similarly) and turn on A-weighting or C-weighting and leave it set that way for the duration of the test.

Play a steady state tone, a sine wave, of say 120Hz [intentionally a little above the subwoofer's range] in the main room, loudly enough such that the SPL in the adjacent room reads it easily well above the ambient room noise by at least 10 dB, or preferably even more. [The "neighbors" room, or it could simply be your own adjacent room with the door shut, which I assume would be easier to pull off, although it's not as ideal]. Record the level by writing it down. [Turn off any extraneous noise generators like AC/furnace/refrigerator, fans, DVR hard drives, etc. and shut the windows, obviously.]

Turn on the LFC circuit and record the amount of sound reduction, in dB, as you switch between its (7, did you say?) levels in the far room, while playing the steady tone in the main listening room.

Now without changing the master volume control on the receiver [did you get the x4000, or some other?] measure what amount of sound reduction occurs in the main listening room, also for the 7 setting levels. You will of course need to reset the scale you are working with on the SPL meter, since now being in the the main room it will probably be off scale otherwise. Mark the tripod feet with tape marks on the floor here too.

You might want to also repeat the entire test but instead using a frequency in the sub's range, say 70 Hz or so, so we can see what it does there too.

This test will show us how much the LFC circuit reduces the level to our neighbors, at its various settings, and how it might be different from us simply lowering the master volume level ourselves, or at least that of the sub signal, if that's what it mostly does.

Thanks for your effort.

P.S. There are various sources online to download sine wave test tones at any frequency you choose, if you don't have them already at hand. Here's an example:
http://www.audiocheck.net/audiofrequencysignalgenerator_sinetone.php

I already have the sine wave test tones from 16 to over 100 Hz. My digital RS has the same features as the analog, I typically use C fast. Your instructions are quite clear so I should be able to follow that but won't be doing until Sat or Sun. The containment setting (it's the AV8801) has a max of 7 and default is 4 so I will try both. Will let you know in a couple of days.
post #9360 of 9615
Quote:
Originally Posted by globalgreg View Post

I have a very difficult room. I know I need to do some room treatments but the room is so small that it's not that easy. I've got a DSPeaker Anti-Mode for my sub but my sub (Epik Empire) just doesn't hit like it should. I wonder if I replaced the Anti-Mode with XT32 I'd get better results.

Well it did what XT could not do for me so I think if you have a difficult room you may want to go for it. I would still suggest you email Chris at Audyssey and let him response to your question.
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