Onkyo SC5508 Surround processor [No Price Talk] - Page 77

Double-check the cables/connections. Something has changed.

I'm sorry I can't help more, but I've never used this feature. So my suggestions are all basic stuff.

Jeff

You can conjure :-), and even fast ;-) :-)

I love Jeff's photoshop pic!
You have a nice place there. Proper surrounds add immensely to the enjoyment of movies and MC music. Did you do the original work? If so, I'm sure you can handle a redo of the install and it should be well worth it.

Can you access above the ceiling at all, or somehow grab the current wires close to the repositioned spot? If not perhaps you could get some version of "invisible" wire (thin clear/flat/white/paintable, whatever suits you) and run it direct from the AVR, along baseboards to the corners where Jeff suggested re-placement. You should be able to "fish" it up within the wall from the baseboard to where the surround will mount on the wall near the ceiling. The speaker will hide the hole and you just repair the one near the baseboard. If it is far easier logistically you could even splice the new wire where the current wires come out of the wall and run it from there.

I work with Photoshop all the time, Jan. Did you notice ... I even hid the wires inside your walls.

Just in case surface mount is necessary ...

http://www.cabletiesandmore.com/corner-raceway.php

runnernorth,

Very tastefully decorated room

Jeff (pepar) has the right idea in regard to the placement of your surrounds. Since they are already installed and wired you should leave the rear speakers in place and employ them as back surrounds for 7.1. You'll be able to realize some benefit from those back channels in your particular layout.

Cheers,
SB

Wow, now there's a thought! Good one!

His post: 9:12AM
Your post: 9:47AM

Time required to drill, run wires through that brick wall, drill some more, mount speaker, cleaning up = 9:47-9:12 = 35 minutes

wow

EDIT: I see the other guys have come up with some great ideas similar to my own below. I've been out for lunch with my No 1 daughter so came to your post a little late.


I love that Scandinavian décor!

Other than the fact that you will have some sort of difficulty in concealing the cables, I'd suggest that you could fairly easily place the surrounds in more or less the right places. I can see the problem with concealing the cables - might it be possible to run the cables *outside* the house, in suitable conduit, and then bring them back in? What is above the room? Would it be possible to run cables in the ceiling, maybe with access from above? I have successfully run cables in ceilings before by making a small hole at one end, a small hole in the middle, a small hole at the other end and then 'fishing' the cables through using some long thin rods designed for the purpose. You have to know which way the joists run of course and they have to be the right way for your purpose! It's a fiddly job but it can be done with time and patience. Afterwards it's fairly easy to 'invisibly' repair the ceiling.

Jeff has cleverly Photoshopped one of your images to show a possible placement for one speaker - you have other similar options on the side walls I think.

Jan, although I really do love that room design, it is very 'lively' looking with the wooden floor and the hard walls and the lack of drapes (or curtains as we call them in the UK ). I wonder if it would be possible to hang something soft and absorbent on at least one of the walls, or to add a large rug in front of the couch. Also, that big reflective surface that is the coffee table is likely to cause some reflections that may muddy the sound from your centre speaker. Talking of the centre speaker, it's a good idea, if you can, to pull it clear of any shelf so that the front edge of the speaker is clear of the shelf itself, and to angle the speaker up slightly to face you when you are in the listening position.

Jeff, SoM and spotcheckbilly, thx for your kindness, I'm impressed by your photoshop job Jeff, I like it, but I'll have to go slowly now, need to convince my wife that it's better moving the surrounds.... Hmmmm
Yes I did all the work myself, and you're right, it's not THAT big a job, and I'm sure I can grab the tube with the wires inside the wall. Unfortunately I can't grab the wires on the ceiling, we have a 2 store house.... The worst thing is to accept that I need to do it, hate "double job".thx all of you, I better close this subject for now in this thread.
Kindly
Jan:-)
Jeff, stop laughing at me, it's not nice you know :-) :-) :-) ;-)

Jan - you won't get the benefit of your investment in your other gear if you leave the surrounds as they are. I'm sure you would be able to persuade your wife (I find new shoes usually works ) and once the work was done, there would be no evidence that it had ever been done so for just a little disruption now you would be able to perfect your sound for ever. It would definitely be worth it.

Show her the picture! (Don't mention drilling.)

J

Hey Keith, I overlooked your reply, sorry! Hope it was a pleasant lunch you and your daughter had there :-)
I'm gonna do it as you say, even the same way, as I did when I ran the tubes/wires for my speakers first time, pull some bricks out of the wall, fish the old tubes/wires, and install the new ones, not a big job, I know, but a bit dirty....
Yes I know the "decor/interior- style" we have here in eg. Denmark, it isn't the best for music, it's rather bad acoustic, but that's the way we like it/want it
Maybe I'll have to do some modifications to our living room, but again, I'm married ;-)
Better have it done soon, so I can do some real listenings, after all, that's what I like :-) :-)
Do you think the height of the speaker Jeff showed on the pic is okay/correct?
Should I mount the other one at the same width, or should I pull it a bit closer to the center of the room, to avoid the chimney..... the sound isn't affected by the chimney really, is it?
Hope you understand me right:-)

Thanks, Jan. Yes it was very good - always nice to see her. She is my oldest daughter (by 5 minutes - they are twins).


It will be worth it.


Are your rear speakers monopoles or dipoles? I use dipoles and they are mounted at 90 degrees to the MLP about 2 feet above ear height. When I used monopoles I had them mounted higher than that and toed in so they faced the MLP, but they also sounded good mounted higher and firing directly into the room towards each other. I would give yourself plenty of cable so you can move them around a little without drilling (don't mention drilling!) new holes and see which orientation sounds best. There are also speaker placement guides on the Dolby and Audyssey websites. Good luck! And don't spend too much on new shoes!

EDIT: I looked at your photos again. I think I would go for a position in front of the fireplace on the side wall and then on the opposite wall for the other speaker. That may place them slightly in front of the MLP but that is OK, especially if you are going to hook up those on the rear wall as rear surrounds, which will be awesome (and makes me very envious as I have no room for rear surrounds.

Another thought - before you drill any holes etc, it may be a good idea to get some long lengths of speaker cable and position the speakers with the cables running free in your room, temporarily. That way you will be able to experiment with speaker positioning/Audyssey etc before you make any permanent changes and drill any holes in your walls.

In my experience, it is best to give your wife the money for the new shoes, and some extra for lunch with a friend, and send her shopping for the day while you have your home festooned with cables and microphones and thwop-thwop noises

Laughing :-) :-) I'll give her money to some new shoes, great idea;-) AND lunch laughing :-)
My surround speakers are monopole, and will place them according to that
I've read both Dolby and Audyssey sites, regarding surround sound, I stay a little bit wiser every time:-) , just a bit ;-)
You're probably right, it's easier to make a temporarily setup, and then try different positions.
Would have loved to invite you guys for a cup of coffee some day, ;-)
I'll report back when I've made some changes regarding my speaker placement
BTW, there's a LOT to learn about the amazingly Onkyo 5509, more questions to come. :-)
Thx
Jan :-)

Finally got the net streaming from PC to 5508 working again. It took some experimenting with the router's settings. Just took a couple of weeks of thought and tinkering.

What were the settings? You had this working at one time - what changed? Inquiring minds want to know!

Jeff

Happy it's going fairly well for you so far. Next time I'm in Denmark, put the coffee on!

To get "net access" to work I had to uncheck "enable spi" in my dlink router on the firewall page.

That is stateful packet inspection having to do with security. Wonder why your streaming worked before and then stopped? Oh well, you're running now.

Who knows? Might just be my router being flaky, something I didn't expect given its hardwired (not wireless).

;-)

Oh, man, just another brick in the wall.

I hope she likes the shoes

Here's my subjective evaluation of going from an Onkyo 5507 with MultEQ XT and an SVS AS-EQ1 to the Onkyo 5509 pre-pro with XT32. Nothing else in the system has been changed. I would make the immediate point that my HT system is used almost exclusively for movies, so my comments apply solely to movie listening, not to music.

As you know, the AS-EQ1 provides the equivalent of XT32 for the bass frequencies only.

I have removed the EQ1 from the system and my SVS sub is now connected to SW1 output on the 5509 as you would expect. When using the EQ1 I used to do 12 mic positions, even though my HT is small, as I found that gave me the smoothest 'after' graph. I wondered when doing the XT32 calibration if I would find any difference due to being able to make only 8 mod positions.

It has been one week since I installed the 5509. Auditory memory being what it is, I no longer have any real idea of what the former setup sounded like but I did make notes as I went along. After running all 8 mic positions for Audyssey MultEQ XT32, using the 'standard' mic positions I have evolved over time, I started my listening sessions without making any changes at all to the Audyssey recommended settings. This entailed leaving the crossovers set at 50Hz for the mains and 70Hz for the surround and height channels, even though I usually use 80Hz all round.

My first impression was that the bass was very little different - this was to be expected as the EQ1 in the system was giving me the equivalent of XT32 correction for the bass region anyway. Also on the first impressions was a feeling that the system sounded more 'refined' somehow. I also noticed an obvious improvement in voice quality - note I say quality and not clarity. I never had a problem with dialogue clarity but now the voices seemed a little for 'real' or 'lifelike'. Overall clarity, especially in the mid range also seemed to be slightly better.

You will get the impression that these differences were subtle, and you’d be right.

Over more prolonged listening to some of my favourite movie tracks I have come to the conclusion that the system does indeed sound a little more refined. There is a feeling of effortlessness that was always there but now it is even more so. The system never sounds loud or fatiguing - it never did anyway but now the feeling is 'more so' if you can understand what I mean by that. The sound is more 'relaxed' in some way, and possibly slightly more 'laid back' than it was before. I think that this points to somewhat overall higher quality, possibly from the advantages of a pre-pro over an AVR used as a pre-pro or possibly from higher grade components (if any) in the 5509 as compared with the 5007.

I am also now noticing slight changes in the bass. I can't say that it is any better or worse than before but it is slightly 'different'. It seems to have a little less 'punch' but it is still satisfactory. To this end, I have raised my XOs back to 80Hz all round and I have upped the bass trim by 2dB. This has restored the bass to something more like it was before. I am unsure if the 12 positions made possible by the EQ1 are making any difference compared with the 8 max positions offered by XT32. I would have thought that 12 positions would make a difference, or why offer more than 8 in the first place, but I am not sure if this translates into audible differences or not.

So… you will have gathered that I am finding any differences subtle. I would definitely say to anyone who has an AVR or pr-pro that has XT, and is used in combination with the AS-EQ1, that you do not need to rush to upgrade. You will not hear a night and day difference. I am sure that this would not be the case for someone using XT alone - the benefits of XT32, especially in the bass regions, make a staggering difference in performance. But once that has been afforded by the combination of XT and the EQ1, moving up to XT32 confers only small benefits. Whether that is worth the cost of the upgrade only the individual can say. If you already have something like the 5007 then you might find you get most of the benefits of the 5509 simply by adding an AS-EQ1 to your system.

So am I happy with the cost of the upgrade? It's hard to say. Other than XT32, there is nothing in the 5509 that wasn’t present in the 5007, for me. There are some small differences in the setup options and a little more flexibility but they are nothing to write home about. DTS Neo:X seems to do very little that PLIIz and/or Audyssey DSX already offer. I am seeing no difference in the video side from the new chip they now use, but then I run all HD sources other than for my HTPC which goes through a separate VP anyway, so maybe others would see some differences there. The differences in SQ afforded by XT32 are subtle, but worthwhile.

Of course, one big difference between the 5007 and the 5509 is that the latter is Pro ready. Or will be in January when Onkyo release their new FW which will make it possible. That will be my nest step forward and it will be interesting to see if Audyssey Pro makes a bigger difference for me.

EDIT: I forgot to mention something which is quite important. When first listening to the 5509 with XT32, I immediately noticed that the integration between the surrounds and the mains was much better. The 'bubble' was much more of a bubble, so to speak. This was especially noticeable on one of my favourite movies and one that has a superlative sound design: Yimou Zhang's 'Hero'. This movie has numerous effects where the sound is panned from the front to back or back to front, as well as diagonally. I have never heard this as well as I did with the 5509. I have no idea why this should be the case but I assume it is something to do with the superior filter resolution of XT32 compared with XT. This entire movie is a sonic delight - there are several scenes set in the Emperor's Great Hall and the subtle ambience effects were revealed more clearly than I am used to hearing with the 5007. Similarly, near the beginning of the movie there is a scene set outdoors in heavy rain - it is not the rain I am referring to here but droplets of water falling from various roofs and so on. Again I have not heard these reproduced with such clarity and delicacy before. I can place each and every droplet in the soundstage with amazing precision. The movie also features a hauntingly beautiful original score and this is also portrayed to perfection through the 5509.

If you think you don't like Chinese martial arts movies, then Hero is the one that will change your mind. The sound design is among the best in my 1100+ collection and the photography is also superb, as are the beautiful locations used throughout the film. If you het the chance to see it, then do so - it will work out your system like almost nothing else - try the battle scene where the protagonists are holed up in a calligraphy school while an army of 10,000 men fires arrows into it - the front to back effects are unbelievable and the sound of the arrows finding their targets will make the hairs on your neck stand on end. Also listen to the effects swirling around your room, from back to front, side to side, front to back and diagonally in the 'library scene' where the scrolls end up crashing to the floor. Amazing. You will note that in this section of my report I have not once mentioned bass - all the stuff I have just written about is mid and treble - precisely where my 5509 with XT32 scores over my 5507 + EQ1.

The above remarks relate to the Dolby Digital 5.1 mix. I found the DTS-HD MA (English dub) mix to be less compelling for some reason - not just the dub, the SQ in general).

Thanks, Keith, for your usual thoroughness in approaching this. I think you have experienced what the conventional wisdom expected.

Don't know about the less punch thing, maybe the result of sampling 8 positions and not 12. Which positions were dropped?

Jeff

Yes, it's more or less what I expected. I have my OmniMic and would like to have taken measurements to back up the subjective findings, but I am not confident enough yet in the proper use of the OmniMic so I erred on the side of caution there.


I seem to have restored it by a) raising the XOs back to 80Hz from the 50Hz suggested for the mains and b) upping the trim by 2dB. The positions I had to sacrifice were an extra row of four spots in front of the row in front of the seats. TBH, the room is probably too small to need 12 positions, but it did seem to give me the best result overall with the EQ1. When I get the Pro kit after Xmas, I will be able to restore those mic spots of course. If you recall, it was really the lure of Pro, more than XT32, that prompted me to buy the 5509 in the first place.

You could shake up positions 2 through 8 by a few inches to-and-fro to check if it makes any difference. But it sounds like it is a non-issue after your tweaks.

Jeff

Yes, so far I have only done the one calibration run. I usually try a few when I get a new component in the system, so probably this weekend, during horse riding <<img src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smilie" class="inlineimg" />>, I will experiment a bit with a few more mic placements.

Very nice work, thnx for the report.


Good move. As you know, as XT32 does not rank crossovers, so there's no good reason not to raise them to 80 (and good reasons to raise them).


I'll be very interested in that report! Of course, we'll want xposts to the Pro thread.