"Official" Yamaha RX-A1000/RX-A2000/RX-A3000 thread - Page 11

Lol yeah it's been down all morning for me too...

OK SO INITIAL REVIEW!!!

I got home around 8pm last night with my new baby riding shotgun with me and eagerly tore into the box.

One thing I have to say is I definitely forgot just how much Yamaha lets you tweak just about everything. Time limiting me I got the unit installed and everything hooked up. The initial sound test was fairly accurate and there UI for setup and use of the AVR blows away the older HK 745's.

Comparing the actual sound quality differs as the HK 745 was mainly based on their Logic 7 sound and Yammy swears by their Cinema DSP. (And not to mention the HK was a $3500 dollar unit a few years back) however with that said I hardly noticed much of a difference between listening to Pandora via my 3d blu ray player then I put in Iron Man and cranked the unit With the unit set to spectacular I was quite impressed (huge explosions).

So overall I'm quite impressed by this new unit so far I'm printing out the entire manual now so I can read up about all the 1,000 settings that you get to mess with and change.

Once I really get into this unit I'll post further updates and pictures but to sum it up so far:

Awesome UI / Tons of options to play with / Cinema DSP so far has been fun to mess with.

Rivals the sound of the HK AVR 745 (however they are different sounds all together imo)

I'm going to start on the networking part of the unit tonight and also start to dial in the setup, currently I just have a basic 7.2 setup and I want to mess with the Cinema 3d options which require presence.

More to come so far - no issues to report.

I don't have the time to re-load and review the manual (but I probably will anyway ), but IIRC, there's no way of configuring this unit (the 3000) so the at least your L, C, and R would be powered EXternally.

I'd be happy/satisfied powering any of the remaining S's, BS's, FP's, or RP's either internally or externally, but it seems (according to another thread) that the pre-outs are NOT live on these models when you select an output mode that designates the internal amps for powering the respective speakers.

See the Denon 4311 works very similarly and does share some limited flexibility, but the pre's stay "hot", so you can still output those channels intended for internal amplification to an external amp, which is the difference maker.

If someone tells me otherwise, I'd happily re-investigate this model!

James

OK, so I of course DID d-load the manual again, and, upon further investigation, simply cannot discover a way to internally power the presence speakers.

Again.

The problem comes in with what happens in the 11.1 configs offered. It appears that there is NO config that will keep will power (internally) ALL of the presence speakers, nor an option that let you power at least one pair of P's internally and then output all the others to an amp.

The overall problem is of course that you HAVE to select an 11 channel config to process 11 channel sound, and neither of the 11CH (2) options will allow you to stretch the options to you need to execute.

IF the pre's are all live though, you COULD have the external amp power the F anf R presence speakers and let the 3000 handle the surrounds and surround rears, I guess.

Again that's assuming the PREs are "live" when you select that 11 CH config.

James

I don't see why the pre-outs wouldn't be hot regardless of which setup you choose save for one (bi-amp). My old HTR-5860 has the front L/R going out via pre-out, and the rest are on internal power (though that will soon change for the center - the amp somehow can't power the center speaker - a CSiA6 - worth a damn).

The only time I assume certain pre-outs aren't hot, at least not in the manner I might need, is in bi-amp mode, where the surround back internal amps are crossed over for bi-amping, but nowhere does it state that the pre-outs are also crossed over and hot. If they ARE crossed over and hot in bi-amp mode, then I just found myself a good holdover until I can get a real prepro.

So you cannot power everything from the yammy (only 7 amps in the unit) all the setup pictures in the manual show the ex amp setups that you must have to power everything... comparing this model to the Denon 4311 it's sorta unfair imo... that's a $2,000 unit.. the A2000 I got for 1200 - so I have plenty left for the Ex Amp purchase and i'll still be under the Denon's price.

Just how I looked at it ... if it helps with anyones decisions... if your looking at the A2000 and you want to run more than a 7.1 setup or a mix 5.1 w/zone 2 then you'll pretty much need a ex amp. but then again... it's a cheaper unit than some competitors...

just sayin...

however if you did want to avoid ex amps you could setup: (page 18 in the usa manual for rx-a2000) 7.1 w/ Zone 2... however when you turn on the Zone 2 the unit will take the amp power going to the surround backs and redirect it to the Zone 2 for Fronts.

Pages 24 - 26 in the manual illustrate the setups that require ex amplification.

I am really not comparing per se on a "level playing field" sense, just comparing as to what I need. And, I'm doing it with the 3000, not the 2000.

Even if the pre-outs are always live on all of the channels, that still doesn't help one navigate the reality that you lose Zone 3 becuase of their pre-out pairing with the R-presence outputs.

IT comes down to this: you'll never have an 11 channel main room array, and be able to operate zones 2 and 3.

You'll never be able to have the 3000 amp the F and R presence channels, BUT, you can output those and have the 3000 push the sides and rear surrounds which is fine.

I truly do hope somone can tell me I'm wrong/missing something here.

And I also hope all of the pre's are indeed live here, otherwise all of this is pointless...which I'm sure it is anyways to most users. lol

James

The big question for me, and now that Yamaha's site is completely down I can't ask it to them - if you activate bi-amp mode, and use the pre-outs for external amplification, are the front L/R crossed over as the bass array at the pre-out, and are the surround back channels crossed over as the mid/high array at the pre-out. If they are, great, then that means I'll have a real bonafied bi-amp and be able to get a lot more power out of my amps than I can now in the current bi-amp setup I have.

If I'm lucky and the pre-outs are simply line level splits from the speaker outs (before the amplification stage obviously), then they'll be crossed over. Otherwise, I may as well go for the Integra 80.2 and an emotiva XPA-3 for my center/rears.

Pretty sure the fastest way is to just call (it's direct - hit option 7)

1 714 522 9105

I got someone right away earlier this morning... best part... american guy from California... we talked about PS3 3D games... HAH... HK was always some annoying call center that didn't know @#$^@#.

+10 points for yamaha customer service.

So you think the RX-A3000 performs high-pass and low-pass filtering for bi-amping? I can't find that in the manual.

I just sold my ext 7-ch NAD amp and am selling my current Yammy Rec. (V-663) which I was using until something better came out. And now its hear (pun). I had a RX-V2700 a few years ago that I really loved but ended up selling and the sound on my 663 just isn't quite the same imo.
So I'm ready to order the A-3000, I want maximum amp and about the only difference between the 2000 to 3000 is the presence outputs and the amp - 2.2lbs and $400 so it will be worth it to me.
My previous 2700 has the same power specs as the current RX-V3900, but the A-3000 specs show more dynamic power than those units. I think these are entirely new amps in these receivers, more efficient power.

I'd bet money it's a simple split of the signal. There's no way they apply an internal crossover in bi-amp mode. All previous Yamaha's have been a simple split. Even if they wanted to apply a crossover, how would they possibly know what frequency to use to match your speaker's crossover?

Guys, Yes to be clear about the 3d problem wit the yamaha line and onkyo as well.. It applies to directv 3d not to blue ray 3d..

The way directv implemented their 3d it works different and for some reason yamaha cant pass the 3d correctly.. Well not yet at least.. They say they are aware and will fix it with software..

Its so weird because the RXA series can even switch hdmi inputs when its turned off so you would think it actually is just passing signal but its not. All hdmi switchers have to apparently deal with the EDID which is driving them a little nuts and us as well..

I have a stack of RXA receivers here I need to install for customers for football season along with their new pana 3d tvs and i cant because of this bug.. Its a real downer and I am hoping yamaha fixes this sooner than later.

More to come

Thanks

If you read the manual, it states to connect the woofers (bass array) to the Front L/R terminals, and the tweeters (mid/high array) to the surround back. This pretty well implies that they are fed filtered signals. If so, I'm hoping that their pre-out counterparts are also crossover filtered. It'd mean that any external amps I use work smarter, not harder, as it were (no power lost due to thermal inversion at the crossover network in the speaker).

Does anyone have the 1000 manual handy and can post a link to it, preferably not to rapidshare or a torrent due to me being behind a firewall right now. I would like to print it off so i can read it on paper and the Yamaha site is down, as many others have posted.

Want to figure out if there is something i can do about the really poor HD Radio reception without buying something else. The coat hanger, while producing an intriguing effect (think being on acid on a roller coaster), isnt really working.

It could also mean that the Front L/R amps have better heat sinking than the surround back amps and can therefore better handle the higher sustained power levels required for low frequencies.

Having different heat sinking for different channels makes a lot of sense for several reasons.
1) No ordinary source material taxes the surround speakers as heavily as the fronts.
2) Nobody will ever use only the surround speakers without also using the fronts. This means that even in a case where all channels are driven equally, the total power available from the power supply is less than the rated power for each individual channel. In contrast, somebody might use only the front channels for a stereo source and actually wind up using those channels at their full rated power.
3) If the only difference is heat sinking, the surround channels can still achieve the same transient power levels (and possibly even the same sustained levels, at the cost of longevity) as the fronts so they probably don't have to be rated differently on the spec sheet.
4) Skimping on heat sinking where possible saves $$$

This was touched on earlier in the thread, but I believe this comment in the manual:



(ie. "Each amplifier works over a restricted frequency range") implies that there is low pass/high pass filtering going on before the amps. There would have to be some overlap in these filtered frequency bands so that they dont have to match your speakers (in fact you dont want them to be that close otherwise the rolloff of the filters in the amp would affect the overall rolloff of the system).

It is a little troubling that this is not made more explicit in the documentation, particularly what frequency choices were made. It is also possible we are just reading it wrong and its a simple split.

Thanks for posting that, i was just searching for some more info on a bi-amp setup for my CF3's. lol I think i will try that tonight and see if i can hear a difference.

Not really. Any speaker with dual inputs is generally designed with it's own separate crossover elements. The effect is the same though since the channel that's driving that speaker input is still only powering a limited freq range. (if the speaker is not reproducing a freq range, the amp is not powering that range). It's pretty important to thoroughly understand your speaker's wiring and setup, since not all speakers with dual inputs are correctly configured for true bi-amping. Some speakers are meant for simple bi-wiring, some can handle a bi-amp setup but don't have correct high/low pass function on the 2 inputs. (they effectively sum the 2 inputs). Others are truly bi-amp capable speakers where the LF and HF inputs are separate once the shorting bars are removed.

I'd be surprised if these AVRs have hi/low pass filters in place in bi-amp mode. Not only would that be unique, but it could conceivably create issues when combined with the speakers internal crossover.

You mean the picture on page 21? It does not say anything about tweeters or woofers. Note that not all speakers have the woofer at the bottom. There is no setting for a crossover frequency + cutoff documented.

I believe you're all reading the manual incorrectly.

*Each amplifier works over a restricted frequency range") implies that there is low pass/high pass filtering going on before the amps.

What it means is...when bi-amping the amplifier is working within a restricted frequency range as the speaker has an internal crossover which limits or restricts the power needed from the amplifier. There are no internal crossover settings I'm aware of in ANY amplifier, if there were it would be a horrible design as adding another stage to any analog signal is usually met with poor results.

Thanks for your reply. The problem is the hassle of routing the cable, not the cost.

Looks like I'll have to do a little more study on bridges, and networking in general.

I'm not sure how horrible it is compared to adding an external XO (line level) at the preamp stage outputs to an amplifier. It's doing the exact same thing. I'd think what matters is that the frequency range be controllable, slightly larger for each section than that respective section can play back (to avoid double dipping on the crossover rolloff or creating in inverted phase signal due to identical crossover settings), and slightly overlapping.

Now in my case, it'd be hard to find the perfect match for that because the way the RTi-A9s are configured internally, there are two crossovers. One at the upper array for the mids/tweeter, and one at the lower array. And they're cut off rather oddly:

1.8kHz, 12dB/octave low and high pass (mid/high array). 120Hz 12dB/octave high pass (bass array).

The woofers, almost able to be classified as subs (you could, technically if you lobbed these woofers in with the rest of the subs that bottom out at about 30 Hz, but this is just saying so for the sake of argument), are crossed over at an unbelievably low 120 Hz. And the mid/high array is crossed over at exactly 1.8 KHz (lowpass for the tweeter, highpass for the mids, with the mids not being rolled off below 120 Hz).

That 120 Hz crossover poses a problem on the A9. Most AVRs' internal crossover when the speakers are set to Small is....drumroll...120 Hz. You get a HUGE double dip there, which would explain why there's no highpass filter for the mids at 120 Hz (to compensate for extra loss in bass at that range).

So in my case, at least for the upper array, I need a full range signal anyway. I could benefit from a ≤200 Hz crossover for the woofers, but fat chance of that happening, so I end up feeding it too a full range signal, letting the internal crossover do its job. Believe me, if I could have the AVR cut off the freq at 200 Hz for the front lows and then an unfiltered signal for the front highs, I would.

It's kinda funny. These things are crossed over so low I may as well be feeding them an LFE signal.

BTW, you might want to be clearer regarding this line: "There are no internal crossover settings I'm aware of in ANY amplifier, if there were it would be a horrible design as adding another stage to any analog signal is usually met with poor results." All AVRs have a crossover when the speakers are set to Small. I've yet to hear it do any harm to the audio signal. ;

I've read the entire thread and can't determine what practical difference there is between the A2000 and A3000. Apparently the A3000 has a zone 4 output (optical) and the HDMI Video Adjustments are adjustable (as opposed to on/off).

I have a pretty basic setup (so the power differences don't matter), but do plan to use 3 zones. Should I care about the HDMI Video Adjustment difference or the fact that there is a zone 4? Also, does the zone 4 "optical" output provide any real advantage?

I'm willing to spend up if it makes sense, but I don't want to just throw money away.

Thanks!

I agree that what's really going on is most likely that the crossover in the speakers is what's restricting the frequency range for which the amps have to produce power. That said, it would be possible to design a receiver with an internal digital crossover specific to bi-amping similar to what most AVRs currently have for subwoofer/satellite arrangements.

If the RX-A series did have internal crossovers specifically for bi-amping, the manual would have to discuss how to configure them (especially because you would probably want to disable the crossovers in your speakers completely if you were doing the filtering in your AVR).

Last I checked, most decent AVRs had adjustable internal crossovers for small speakers. What AVR are you thinking of that has a fixed 120Hz crossover?

So I got my RX-A700 installed and am just going to make some obvious observations...

I have a very budget speaker setup. For now I will just make remarks about how it powers Energy C-500 towers in 2 channel mode.

Good:
- Bi-amp the front speakers kicks ass. This is why I got this receiver.
- Pure Direct mode on the remote eliminates any processing of music and that sounds more clear to me. Especially streaming FLAC files through the PS3.
- YPAO found my Take 5.1 classic center channel was out of phase. Not the wiring..the actual speaker!? Hmmmm...Anyway, this mode will only be used for movies/tv.
- Option for two 'zone 2' speakers

Quirks:
- Confused me trying to make the sub work with the C-500s when set to "large speaker". If the speakers are set to "large", the sub doesn't play! If the speakers are set to small, the sub plays!? Apparently in order for the sub to work with the C-500 in "large speaker" setting, you have to select "extra bass" in speaker setup. That doesn't seem very intuitive...but I found it in the manual.

-Also, the "bass cross-over" in the speaker setup is actually the HPF for any speakers set to "small" size. OOoooooookay.

- Logitech Harmony remote likes the RX-V667 codes.

Bad:
- Tried turning off the TV when listening to music...the receiver completely shuts off. Durrrrr...I'll work on this one and let you know if I find a solution.

Other than that...I'm looking at trying the lil' 700 out with a bluray movie!

Ciao for now.

Nate

i have just had a response from yamaha about the pre-outs. Below is the main part of my email with a reply from yamaha customer service (U.S.A.)

.....please can you confirm (or not) if the pre-outs are active at all times, my ideal situation i would like to achieve is to power my 7 main channels in the theater with my external power amp, use the rxa3000 to power front presence and zone 3 and have zone 2 pre-outs sending signal to another area of the house that has a stereo amplifier....?


The main pre outs are always active with any source. The record outs will output when a analog source is selected. Zone 2 will send out analog sources that are selected.


Best Regards,
The Yamaha Customer Support Team


doesnt completely answer my question but i am sure others want this info, what is good for me is that it appears zone 2 pre-out is always zone 2, therefore some of the setups that utilise zone 3 powered will still have zone 2 ability.

i think that the 7CH + Front on page 24 will allow external amplification of the main channels, internal amplifier for presence (extra spkr 1 jacks), zone 2 pre-out for zone 2 and hopefully extra speaker 2 jacks for zone 3! or pre out to another slave amp for zone 3.

the only issue i see with the above is zone 3 which relies on the amp assignability being more versatile than the manual would lead me to believe, possibly with the zone configuration it could be.

Wouldn't that require a 13 channel volume control mechanism...? (7 + 2 + 2 + 2)

no- 9 channels in the theater using a 7 channel power amp (including a3000 powering presence channels)

2 channels for zone 2 (has its own volume controls)

2 channels for zone 3 (has its own volume control)

then of course you can still use the zone 4 (digital out from digital sources zone out component for video) to run into another theater amp (bedroom) in which case the slave (bedroom) theater amp controls volume.