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"Official" Yamaha RX-A1000/RX-A2000/RX-A3000 thread - Page 210

post #6271 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetmeat View Post

What's the benefit of changing the filter slope? How would someone know if they should do that? Is it clearly documented in the manual on how to do this on the A3000? Sorry - I don't have an OM in front of me right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

The filter slope is fixed on all models. I dont think that's really a limitation (I wouldn't know what to do with a variable slope anyway ).

The slope is pretty standard. Changing it (correctly) would entail some pretty thorough work with PEQ and spectrum analysis to find the best slope for your specific system and room. IOW it's dependent on the speakers in use and their unique response curves.
post #6272 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Ridge View Post

You have similar setup to what the previous poster had, so the same solutions. One option is to hook up all three sets of speakers through a impedance matching speaker selector to either the EXTRA SP1 or EXTRA SP2 jacks, and get 5.1 surround in the main room when using the speakers in the other room. The other is to hook up one set of speakers directly to the receiver and the other two through a speaker selector. You'd need to use both of the EXTRA SP jacks, and you'ld only get 3.1 in the main room when both zone 2 and 3 are active.

You can play the same source in all the zones using party mode. You can also play different sources in different zones (the main zone, zone 2, zone 3). In the later case any source you want to hear in zone 2 or zone 3 needs to be hooked (also) with analogue cables.

You don't need an external amplifier unless you either want 5.1 surround with both zones active or if you can't get enough volume out of your speakers when using a speaker selector.

So I hooked up the 5.1 with the Rears in the Surround Jack, 2 speakers in Kitchen in Extra SP1 and 2 speakers in Dining Room in Extra SP2. I only tested with Pandora and when I enabled Zone 2 and 3 it shut off the Rears in the Surround Jack. Will party mode play through the rears? I would have thought since I am not truly using the full 7.1+zone2+zone3 amp configuration and only plugged in 5.1 - I would be able to power the rears.
post #6273 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post


The slope is pretty standard. Changing it (correctly) would entail some pretty thorough work with PEQ and spectrum analysis to find the best slope for your specific system and room. IOW it's dependent on the speakers in use and their unique response curves.

Thanks.

I would have NO idea where to even begin this process. If I hired someone to calibrate my system, is determining the correct slope usually a part of that? I'm considering having someone manually calibrate my system which is the reason fit the question.
post #6274 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDKing2 View Post

This may be an obvious suggestion but have you checked the speaker settings on the tv? Are they muted or set to external? Do you get sound when directly connected to the tv bypassing the receiver?

I did try that but no joy. Finally reset the HDTV to factory settings and started over...then it worked. It ended up being a rather obscure TV setting I had tried at some point...operator error Not the A1000 at all!
post #6275 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetmeat View Post

Thanks.

I would have NO idea where to even begin this process. If I hired someone to calibrate my system, is determining the correct slope usually a part of that? I'm considering having someone manually calibrate my system which is the reason fit the question.

Ummmm. No offense, but I get the impression that you are an enthusiastic audiophile, without an engineering background and with limited or no speaker/crossover design experience, yes? And you are asking questions and some folks are responding with some pretty highfalootin' technical answers.

Start with what a crossover does: it separates high an low frequency power signals and sends the appropriate signal along to the appropriate (woofer, mid, or tweeter) speaker. What most crossovers consist of are passive high- and low-pass filters. These are combinations of capacitors (which allow higher frequency signals, but block low frequency and DC) and inductors (or coils, which block high frequencies but let low frequencies and DC pass). It may be a little more sophisticated than this: the filters may have multiple capacitors, inductors, and resistors to achieve design goals.

Two goals which come to mind are phasing, and proper roll-off (or slope). One often graphs the percent of incoming signal to the speaker terminals that gets transmitted to the specific driver. These graphs are often done using log scales for frequency and percent transmitted. That is, there is no "Zero" frequency on the graph, and the distance between 1 Hz and 10 Hz is the same as that between 10 Hz and 100 Hz. Each of these distances is a called a decade. Likewise, instead of graphing 0 to 100 % transmitted, that percentage is translated to dB, which is a log unit describing the ratio of input to output. In this case, 0 dB means no attenuation of power (100% transmitted). -3dB is 50% power transmitted, -10dB is 10%, and -20dB is 1% of power transmitted.

Here is an example showing attenuation through the woofer, mid, and tweeter channels:


Filters aren't sharp. If you have a low pass filter that is nominally 100Hz, that means that 100Hz signals are 50% attenuated, lower frequencies are less so, and higher frequencies are more so. Different crossover designs are sharper (attenuation increases faster with changing frequency) or less sharp (the opposite). Filter slope (or rolloff) is the slope of the lines shown on the graph, above. It might be -10dB/decade, meaning every time I increase the frequency be a factor of 10 (the "decade" part), I drop the power transmission by the same factor (that is, 10% transmission, from the -10dB part).

In general, you want the signal to go smoothly from one speaker to the other as frequency changes. So the filter slope that decreases the woofer signal as frequency increases must increase the signal that the tweeter sees in a precisely coupled way. And changing the slope of either the low pass or high pass sections in the crossover also would require adjustment of the nominal frequency of those filters.

Crossovers also affects the phase of the signal. For a signal right in the "notch" between speakers (when both tweeter and woofer get 50% of the input signal), you want both drivers pushing out and pulling in at the same time. Otherwise, they kind of cancel, and you don't hear that frequency as loudly as intended. So this is a design consideration, and speaker designers take into account the electrical and physical characteristics of their drivers, the box the drivers are in, porting, fill, and other factors when designing their crossovers. It's pretty complex. Or at least, there are a lot of factors to consider.

Confused? Well, if you study this intently (or find better explanations) you won't be. But (IMHO) to get to the point where you are changing crossover filter slope productively will require a lot of effort. Either studying the engineering of the matter, or careful listening. Until you put in a lot of effort, listen carefully to your system as it is, and identify specific problems that suggest this type of action, I'd relax and not worry about changing filter slope. The default value is probably set to a very good level for almost all setups.

In sum, I would suggest your position is like that of a guy who buys a very nice Corvette, and dives in discussing his new car with a bunch of really experienced, sharp, well-healed Vette gearheads and experts. He hears about aftermarket steering mods, transmission replacements, engine rebuilds, modified hoods with air scoops, replacement suspension systems "for improved handling at 186mph!", and... Well, you get the drift. The optimal first step might not be to bore our the engine and replace the pistons and camshaft. He should gas up the Vette, and enjoy driving it for heaven's sake!

I'd hook your system up, see if you like the sound, and enjoy it a bit. If you hear things you don't like, or if you have friends whose systems sound better to you, ask questions. Start playing around. Try different speakers. Try biamping (in fact, that's one easy change you could make to see if you hear any difference at all when tweaking this stuff - if you don't hear any difference with biamping, filter slope shouldn't never trouble you ever again!).

Paraphrasing a political/religious commentator: Don't Immanentize the Eschaton! (roughly, but not exactly, don't expect that you need to get everything perfect right away).

Plug the thing in, hook it it, and enjoy some music. Good luck.
post #6276 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by rismoney View Post

Will party mode play through the rears? I would have thought since I am not truly using the full 7.1+zone2+zone3 amp configuration and only plugged in 5.1 - I would be able to power the rears.

There are only 7 amplifers, so with two zones active you only have 3 left to power the main zone. That means the receiver isn't capable of powering two zones and your rear speakers at the same time and it doesn't matter if you're using party mode or not.
post #6277 of 8518
If I have large front speakers, should I configure it with large or small front speakers? The fronts are B&W CM9's.

Thanks in advance.
post #6278 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post

What most crossovers consist of are passive high- and low-pass filters. These are combinations of capacitors (which allow higher frequency signals, but block low frequency and DC) and inductors (or coils, which block high frequencies but let low frequencies and DC pass). It may be a little more sophisticated than this: the filters may have multiple capacitors, inductors, and resistors to achieve design goals.

Nice overview. But the above hardware is to filter analog, right? Since just about everything is digital these days, why not filter in Fourier space with software (well, firmware for speed). Couldn't you get much better filters that way?
post #6279 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Ridge View Post

There are only 7 amplifers, so with two zones active you only have 3 left to power the main zone. That means the receiver isn't capable of powering two zones and your rear speakers at the same time and it doesn't matter if you're using party mode or not.

My understanding was that only Zone 2 could use any of the built in amps, and the zone 3 was only available from an optical out.
post #6280 of 8518
No, zone 2/3 available from speaker terminals powered by receiver internal amps and zone 4 from pre amp outputs powered by external amp. That's with the 3000.
post #6281 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by buggsy2 View Post

Nice overview. But the above hardware is to filter analog, right? Since just about everything is digital these days, why not filter in Fourier space with software (well, firmware for speed). Couldn't you get much better filters that way?

This is a good question, beyond my experience. For the record, I'm a real dinosaur: I used to build things called Heathkits that had things called thermionic tubes. I own a Vacuum Tube Voltmeter that I built. The young' uns here will be wondering "whaaa?". Sorry, young 'uns.

I'm sure you could digitize the sound, do a Fourier transform to get frequency content, divvy it up into high- and low-frequency (or high, low, and mid) and anti-transform the three components back into time-domain. If that is easier, has better characteristics (e.g. better bandwidth and side-lobe control, etc), or is more flexible (if you can control the filter slope more easily) then that's what should be done. In fact, it IS done in many systems. High def video is digital, and look at all the DSP stuff done on video. Makes sense to do stuff digitally.

One factor bearing upon whether that view is worth the climb, though, is that the the time-domain power signals input into analog speakers. For high end systems you could put a boatload of digital features in, and have enormous range of control of how the sound is processed, and could really adjust the system to get a very linear input-output including speakers. DSP is obviously here to stay! That said, the McIntosh I listened to as a kid had one digital component: the on-off switch. And it sounded pretty good!



PS upon review, there were several switches on the front. In defense of what I wrote above, a lot of them were switching analog circuits in or out, or modifying characteristics of those analog circuits.

BTW, I write math models of disease for a living. Mostly differential equation models that are solved for time-domain output using simulation programs. I was speaking with the author of one of those programs (formerly a Professor at CalTech - a real bright guy) and mentioned that I had used analog computers as an undergrad. He got real excited. "I have a Comdyna G6 at home!". Viva la analog!
post #6282 of 8518
Newegg this weekend has a deeper discount on the a3000 (<$930) than I've seen over the past year. As always, need to register as a customer
post #6283 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by danjw1 View Post

My understanding was that only Zone 2 could use any of the built in amps, and the zone 3 was only available from an optical out.

Both Zone 2 and Zone 3 are analogue zones and both can be assigned to either the EXTRA SP1 and EXTRA SP2 speaker terminals. Zone 4, only available on the RX-A3000, is the SPDIF in/out only zone you're thinking of.

There's a only a very simple "network" of relays that controls the assignment of amplifiers to speaker terminals. Mostly the relays control whether the terminal is connected to a specific amplifier or no amplifier. In the case of the EXTRA SP1 terminals they control whether they're connected to either front amps, the surround back amps or nothing at all. For EXTRA SP2 its either the surround amps or the surround back amps or nothing at all.
post #6284 of 8518
Little off topic but:

Would surround polk fxia4 dipole/tripole work for presence speakers?
post #6285 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Ridge View Post


Both Zone 2 and Zone 3 are analogue zones and both can be assigned to either the EXTRA SP1 and EXTRA SP2 speaker terminals. Zone 4, only available on the RX-A3000, is the SPDIF in/out only zone you're thinking of.

There's a only a very simple "network" of relays that controls the assignment of amplifiers to speaker terminals. Mostly the relays control whether the terminal is connected to a specific amplifier or no amplifier. In the case of the EXTRA SP1 terminals they control whether they're connected to either front amps, the surround back amps or nothing at all. For EXTRA SP2 its either the surround amps or the surround back amps or nothing at all.

If I were to bi-amp my bi-wireable speakers, would the following be an appropriate setup for the A3000:
1). Attach a regular speaker wire (not bi-wire) from the front left speaker's negative post to the negative bottom post of the left speaker
2). Attach a regular speaker wire (not bi-wire) from the front right speaker's negative post to the negative bottom post of the right speaker
3). Repeat 1-2 above for the positive posts
4). Repeat 1-2 above, but substitute front left with extra sp1.
5). Repeat 4 for the positive posts
post #6286 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetmeat View Post

If I were to bi-amp my bi-wireable speakers, would the following be an appropriate setup for the A3000:
1). Attach a regular speaker wire (not bi-wire) from the front left speaker's negative post to the negative bottom post of the left speaker
2). Attach a regular speaker wire (not bi-wire) from the front right speaker's negative post to the negative bottom post of the right speaker
3). Repeat 1-2 above for the positive posts
4). Repeat 1-2 above, but substitute front left with extra sp1.
5). Repeat 4 for the positive posts

No, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here, but that's not at all an appropriate setup.

If you want to bi-amp your speakers then you need to use bi-ampable speakers, set the Power Amp Assign setting to "5ch BI-AMP", remove any bridge connecting the speaker terminals of your bi-ampable speakers, and use the "FRONT" and "SURROUND BACK/BI-AMP" terminals.

If you want bi-wire your speakers then just run two sets of cables for each speaker to the "FRONT" terminals. Connect black to black and red to red.

Really I wouldn't bother with any of this. Bi-wiring is dumb, and bi-amping is of dubious value without an active crossover.

I should've mentioned in my previous post that while the relays allow for a number of different ways for the speaker terminals to be assigned to amplifiers, the firmware limits the possibilities to just those that make sense. In particular it won't connect two speaker terminals to the same amplifier at the same time.
post #6287 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Ridge View Post


No, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here, but that's not at all an appropriate setup.

If you want to bi-amp your speakers then you need to use bi-ampable speakers, set the Power Amp Assign setting to "5ch BI-AMP", remove any bridge connecting the speaker terminals of your bi-ampable speakers, and use the "FRONT" and "SURROUND BACK/BI-AMP" terminals.

If you want bi-wire your speakers then just run two sets of cables for each speaker to the "FRONT" terminals. Connect black to black and red to red.

Really I wouldn't bother with any of this. Bi-wiring is dumb, and bi-amping is of dubious value without an active crossover.

I should've mentioned in my previous post that while the relays allow for a number of different ways for the speaker terminals to be assigned to amplifiers, the firmware limits the possibilities to just those that make sense. In particular it won't connect two speaker terminals to the same amplifier at the same time.

Ross,

I thought the reason for bi-amping AND bi-wiring was to improve the clarity. Is my understanding wrong?

I've read somewhere that you don't really gain much clarity, if any at all, by bi-wiring or bi-amping. I thought if I could combine them, then maybe I would hear a noticeable difference.

Is it possible to bi-amp and bi-wire? That's what I was trying to do. My speakers are bi-wireable.

I re-read my previous post and found a mistake in my description of what I was planning to do. I'll repost with the edit.
post #6288 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetmeat View Post


If I were to bi-amp my bi-wireable speakers, would the following be an appropriate setup for the A3000:
1). Attach a regular speaker wire (not bi-wire) from the front left speaker's negative post to the negative bottom post of the left speaker
2). Attach a regular speaker wire (not bi-wire) from the front right speaker's negative post to the negative bottom post of the right speaker
3). Repeat 1-2 above for the positive posts
4). Repeat 1-2 above, but substitute front left with extra sp1.
5). Repeat 4 for the positive posts

Basically what I'm trying to do is bi-wire and bi-amp at the same time.

Instead of having 4 separate wires from each speaker combined into pairs which would be attached to the positive and negative front speaker post, I planned to connect just 2 of those wires to the front speaker post (positive and negative attached to the bottom post on the speaker). The other 2 wires (positive and negative) attached to the top posts on the speaker would be attached to the surround back posts.

This would be done for each speaker. Make any sense, or am I smoking crack?
post #6289 of 8518
hey everyone

Did anyone here try to connect height presence speakers and width presence speakers
to their RX-A3000 at the same time ?
If yes, please explain it to me how you did it, because the owner's manual is not very clear (at least for me) about it (it only shows the height presence hook up).
Any input would be welcome
post #6290 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetmeat View Post

Basically what I'm trying to do is bi-wire and bi-amp at the same time.

Instead of having 4 separate wires from each speaker combined into pairs which would be attached to the positive and negative front speaker post, I planned to connect just 2 of those wires to the front speaker post (positive and negative attached to the bottom post on the speaker). The other 2 wires (positive and negative) attached to the top posts on the speaker would be attached to the surround back posts.

This would be done for each speaker. Make any sense, or am I smoking crack?

Bi-wiring on its own does nothing, bi-amping implies bi-wiring.

There is little if any benefit to bi-amping a home theater setup.

Bi-amping would be good in a car for example, where each tweeter has it's own amplifier channel separate from the woofer. This would allow for EQ of each speaker independently as well as time alignment since all the tweeters and woofers are at different distances from your head. This isn't a situation you have to compensate for in a home theater setup.
post #6291 of 8518
I agree with sebberry. The only reason to bi-amp home theater speakers would be if you want to use 2 amplifiers to use more power to drive the speakers. If you have a single amp sufficient enough to power your speakers at your listening levels, there's no benefit to bi-amping.
post #6292 of 8518
Just wondering if anyone has a solution for Comcast over hdmi resetting 4:3 override to 480p. I think it is because my tv doesn't support 480i. I was thinking maybe trying HDMI override but really feel this shouldn't matter since I am having the rx-a2000 upscale everything to 1080p.
post #6293 of 8518
How do people like their front presence speakers? Are they worth the trouble and expense? I do sometimes sense that the dialogue is coming from my center below the TV. It would be nice if it seemed to be coming from the TV.

Also, how important is it that the front presence speakers be similar to the rest of my speakers? I'm running an Aperion 5.1 setup so the cheapest I could go would be the Aperion 4Bs for presence, at $110 a pop.
post #6294 of 8518
Hi, just bought the RX-A2000. This is my first HDMI receiver.
When I turn on the TV the receiver turns on at the same time and switches to external speakers. Is there any way to prevent that? TV speakers are sufficient for us for general TV viewing.
Thank you,
Bjorn
post #6295 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by nichtkomisch View Post

Hi, just bought the RX-A2000. This is my first HDMI receiver.
When I turn on the TV the receiver turns on at the same time and switches to external speakers. Is there any way to prevent that? TV speakers are sufficient for us for general TV viewing.
Thank you,
Bjorn

More likely than not, your television's audio settings have been set to default to external speakers/home theater/AVR. Adjust your television's audio settings to default to the television's speakers. Depending on the the model and age of your television, CEC can still be enabled so that when you power up your AVR after turning on the television, audio will then be diverted to the AVR's speakers.
post #6296 of 8518
Just hooked up my RX-A2010 on Friday and so far I've been able to figure out everything that I want it to do. It has taken some patience with that ridiculous manual, but I have managed. However, I installed the app on my iPad and iPhone and I can't get it to work. They both find the AVR but when I touch the screen to open it nothing happens. The demo will open but that is just at tease as to what I could be doing. I believe I have the right ip address so now what. I am not too network savvy, but I think I have it right. Anyone out there with a similar problem and/or a possible solution? Also, is it me or does the manual not cover the app? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
post #6297 of 8518
Ok, so if my receiver has enough power to drive my speakers, I shouldn't bi-amp. But if I want to bi-wire (because my speakers allow for it), could I bi-amp and bi-wire the way I mentioned before? I'm asking because I don't really want to combine 2 speaker wires into a single banana plug because there's too much wire to fit into the banana plugs I have.

Also, have any of you calibrated your system using sound pressure gauges? Was there a noticeable difference compared to when you used YPAO? Is there anything that could be done with a gauge that couldn't be done with YPAO? Did you use a professional gauge or one that could be bought from Radio Shack? Where could I get a calibration DVD for cheap? Is calibrating something that could be done by an enthusiastic home theater noob?

Sorry I'm asking so many questions. I just upgraded my entire home theater and I'd like for it to be as perfect as possible.
post #6298 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by pappaduke View Post

Just hooked up my RX-A2010 on Friday and so far I've been able to figure out everything that I want it to do. It has taken some patience with that ridiculous manual, but I have managed. However, I installed the app on my iPad and iPhone and I can't get it to work. They both find the AVR but when I touch the screen to open it nothing happens. The demo will open but that is just at tease as to what I could be doing. I believe I have the right ip address so now what. I am not too network savvy, but I think I have it right. Anyone out there with a similar problem and/or a possible solution? Also, is it me or does the manual not cover the app? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Just throwing this out for obvious reasons, i am assuming you are connected via wifi, correct? I have both apps on my android and ipad 2, no issues with controlling a A3010 as long as im connected to the network wifi.
post #6299 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post


Just throwing this out for obvious reasons, i am assuming you are connected via wifi, correct? I have both apps on my android and ipad 2, no issues with controlling a A3010 as long as im connected to the network wifi.

Yes I'm connected via wifi. This has me scratching my head and it was one of the things I was looking forward to doing. I was able to do a firmware update so I'm sure the AVR is connected to the network and the app finds my AVR, but it just won't open for some unknown reason. I hope someone has a solution.
post #6300 of 8518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetmeat View Post

Ok, so if my receiver has enough power to drive my speakers, I shouldn't bi-amp. But if I want to bi-wire (because my speakers allow for it), could I bi-amp and bi-wire the way I mentioned before? I'm asking because I don't really want to combine 2 speaker wires into a single banana plug because there's too much wire to fit into the banana plugs I have.

There is no reason to bi-wire if you are not bi-amping. Why would you be combining 2 speaker wires? Simply run amp positive to speaker positive and amp negative to speaker negative, top or bottom posts on the speaker does not matter. If your speakers are missing the bridge jumper between the top and bottom posts, just use a short jumper wire as a substitute.
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