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Star Trek TNG Seasons Remastered on Blu-Ray - Page 58

post #1711 of 2431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Everett View Post

Here's the TV spot that aired during the Big Bang Theory tonight:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=406918596012367
I had no idea that observation lounge element from the main title sequence was very rudimentary animation! I always figured it was a filmed element with real people in costume. Don't understand what I'm talking about? Watch the video! smile.gif

Yes, it's weird because back in '87 in Starlog and the Fan Club Newsletter both said it was "Picard leaning over the conference table". I guess technically they never said it was a live action shot.

That new explosion of the freighter Batris blowing up looks pretty bad though. I actually prefer the stock explosion they used originally (the same explosion they used for the ST III, Naked Now, Generations, etc).
post #1712 of 2431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Everett View Post

Here's what Michael Okuda has said in recent days on the issue:
Quote:
"The show simply wasn't designed for widescreen. There's some additional useable picture information on the sides of some, but not all shots. In any case, 16x9 would require picture loss from cropping on the top and/or bottom of all shots."
So, are you saying that they are going to be taking the TV transmitted area, which is similar to what we already have on DVD? Using your example from previous posts, something like this?

325
post #1713 of 2431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac128 View Post

So, are you saying that they are going to be taking the TV transmitted area, which is similar to what we already have on DVD? Using your example from previous posts, something like this?
325

Correct. The Blu-ray's are using essentially the same TV Transmitted Area as the DVDs.*

farpointhd455.th.jpg pdvd003hp.th.jpg

* Though "Sins of the Father" appears to be cropped to action safe on all the non-VFX shots... but that may be fixed by the time the Season 3 set comes out next year.

sinsbridge.th.jpg worfsinsblucrop.th.jpg sinslounge.th.jpg sinscouncil.th.jpg sinsconsole.th.jpg sinstenforward.th.jpg sinsreadyroom.th.jpg sinscooridor.th.jpg
post #1714 of 2431
Interesting. I guess what I find intriguing is Okuda's comment that the useable side information was not consistent. I find it hard to wrap my head around the fact that they didn't keep the Academy aperture clean, or that it wasn't mostly clear out of practicality.

I would be happy with just this much width expansion to give TNG a bit more of a cinematic treatment and look a little less old fashioned:

325

And yes I saw the earlier discussion about "Sins of the Father" which is presumably going to be corrected in the upcoming BluRay. But since you brought it up -- isn't action safe really what the director was looking at and intended when he framed the shot, only protecting the overscan area because it might end up on a TV? Most TVs in the 80s probably displayed very little outside of that image area. In which case, why not just print the Action Safe area? Combined with the expanded aperture width, you'd come pretty close to a wide screen presentation like this. I don't see why this choice would be any more incorrect than adding in the full overscan area -- more picture is not necessarily a good thing, especially when it comes to adding height (my opinion of course): that first "Sins" picture you offer of the bridge is a perfect example as the lights above Worf's head are glaring and distracting. This solution at least preserves the balance of the image by adding equal amounts to each side.

325

Nevertheless, I suppose the decision has been made. Still, I've been watching a lot of BBC America and noticed they are running TNG but in an odd aspect ratio, basically a zoomed 4:3. I don't have a screen shot handy at the moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't correspond to the action safe area, as I don't notice anything odd about the cropping, though the picture is satisfyingly wider. Then again, I have only casually noticed this. Is this a special transfer for BBCA? Interesting that they would chose to do this over what other networks do by stretching the 4:3 picture. I would certainly much prefer their approach over stretching.
post #1715 of 2431
The BBC America thing you're talking about is just a 14:9 crop of the SD material.
post #1716 of 2431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac128 View Post

Interesting. I guess what I find intriguing is Okuda's comment that the useable side information was not consistent. I find it hard to wrap my head around the fact that they didn't keep the Academy aperture clean, or that it wasn't mostly clear out of practicality.

Here's an example of what he meant, where there appears to have been a 4:3 mask used in front of the lens, directly in the matte box (look for the slightly curved shadow along the top and upper right corner):

10647v.jpg

You can see what I'm talking about on the camera on the right in the image below:

seasonfivebonus052.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac128 View Post

But since you brought it up -- isn't action safe really what the director was looking at and intended when he framed the shot, only protecting the overscan area because it might end up on a TV? Most TVs in the 80s probably displayed very little outside of that image area. In which case, why not just print the Action Safe area?

Because HDTVs still ship with overscan turned on by default (much like how the H and V knobs were factory adjusted on old tube sets)... and most consumers never read the manual and discover they can turn it off (if they can turn it off at all, that is). Thus, it's just safer to use the SMPTE TV Trans. recommended Area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac128 View Post

Still, I've been watching a lot of BBC America and noticed they are running TNG but in an odd aspect ratio, basically a zoomed 4:3. I don't have a screen shot handy at the moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't correspond to the action safe area, as I don't notice anything odd about the cropping, though the picture is satisfyingly wider.

Yep, and I can do the same thing with my front projector by setting overscan to 90% instead of 100% (or manually adjusting the zoom lens and electronic masking). It gives me about 1.5:1 (9:6), close to a VistaVision shaped frame (or IMAX, if you will)... very close to what BBC America is doing and what msgohan suggests as 14:9 (admittedly, a little wider).
post #1717 of 2431
Ah. Thanks for that. So it's the matte box that dirtied up the edge of the Academy frame. Still my point remains, I would rather see a slightly wider transfer than a full frame enlargement. In other words, give me the TV Action safe top and bottom frame, with the wider TV transmitted frame. And I do see what you mean about overscan being enabled by default on most digital TVs. The 1:1 setting is part of my picture size toggle button and "just scan" is the name of the setting on my Samsung TV. However, the setting makes little difference for most broadcasters, and most videophiles are going to opt for this setting. However, I do understand what you mean by most consumers. My counter to that argument is that overscan on digital TV is so minimal compared to a 70s and 80s era TV, that merely expanding the frame by a few lines of resolution outside the top and bottom of the action safe framing would do the trick without significantly minimizing the extra width gained by this cropping. What I would love is a setting on the BluRay make this adjustment, as opposed to the Zoom feature on most consumer TVs. There is an argument to be made as I have, that this top and bottom framing is much closer to what the director had in mind over what we've been seeing on the DVDs (at least since the advent of digital TVs). THe extra width being no more arbitrary than adding the extra picture all the way around.

325

Or, better yet, give me as wide a useable frame as possible of the Academy aperture, balanced on center of course. To be consistent they would have to do that based on the minimum frame size unaffected by dirty edges. I say all this in a vacuum, as the producers may have already done this, because of course all it takes is one episode where the entire Academy aperture is consistently unusable to ruin it for the series.

Nevertheless, one postive benfit of this would be that unless CBS prevents stretching in their license agreement, or cropping as the BBC does, then more width in the native picture (and I can't believe I'm saying this) actually ameliorates the 4:3 stretching that goes on with most broadcasters attempting to fill up their 16:9 screens. In this example it just makes William Frakes look more like he did in the last 6 seasons smile.gif

325

Thanks again for the clarification, I'm sure that clears it up for a number of folks! And to be clear, it's not that I can't enjoy, or won't enjoy watching the series in 4:3, I just think it's a constraining medium for such an epic series. If it could be done, so much the better. These people who say they won't buy it unless it's 16:9 crack me up ... the picture clarity alone is astounding. Even I Love Lucy which CBS remasterd in HD and are now showing complete episodes on CBS.com shows just how insightful a decision it was by Desi Arnaz to shoot that series on film. It looks like it was shot yesterday compared to what I have seen all my life on TV, and even on DVD -- which make episodes I've seen a dozen times feel like I'm watching for the first time. Likewise for TNG. That alone will make it "viewable" for many more years. Those poor shows shot on video and can only be shown on SD will die a painful death as tomorrow's audiences will essentially view them in the way they percieve silent movies -- as historical footnotes.
Edited by Mac128 - 7/7/12 at 11:55am
post #1718 of 2431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac128 View Post

Thanks again for the clarification, I'm sure that clears it up for a number of folks!

The real clarification will be the 24 minute ENERGIZED! feature on disc 1 of the S1 Blu-ray set. Robert Meyer Burnett promised that, "Regarding the idea of STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION presented in 16×9 vs. the original 4×3…well, rest assured, that will be put to rest once and for all."

And speaking of Burnett, last night, he let this slip on Twitter:
Quote:
Robert Meyer Burnett ‏@BurnettRM
You know what looks cool in HD? The Romulan Warbird firing on
the Romulan Scout in "The Defector." Oh wait...I'm getting ahead of
myself.

Jose Molina ‏@JoseMolinaTV
@BurnettRM
SEASON THREE!!!

Robert Meyer Burnett ‏@BurnettRM
@JoseMolinaTV Wait...‪#TNGS3‬? Did I see something in HD from
Season Three...? I couldn't possibly have...COULD I?

Jose Molina ‏@JoseMolinaTV

@BurnettRM Now you've gone too far, Burnett...

Robert Meyer Burnett ‏@BurnettRM
@JoseMolinaTV Not as far as the Enterprise C.

So that confirms what I heard about two weeks ago that they were now working on seasons 2 and 3 simultaneously. Cool. ("The Defector" is episode 10 of season 3. "Yesterday's Enterprise" is episode 15.)
post #1719 of 2431
Hmmmm. That sort of suggests that they are doing the same thing they did with TOS, and doing all of the exterior shots in HD for future purposes. And that makes sense since the models were blue screened, and the effects are being digitally re-created.

Speaking of which I would really like to see an episode of star trek that mixes the 4:3 interiors with the 16:9 exteriors, just to see how jarring it may or may not be ... The way it was accidentally released for Xbox (http://trekmovie.com/2007/07/31/tos-r-goes-widescreen-in-japan/) ... If it worked, that might be a way to have your cake and eat it too ...

And now that I've brought up the original series, I got curious about the remastering of the original series as well and how it compared to TNG. I found this film clip compared to the DVD still frame. Overlaying the aperture/safe area template we've been using for TNG, there's not a whole lot of extra picture information outside of the TV transmitted area, indicating that cropping was the only way to achieve 16:9. I am curious about the 35mm film which appears to be a considerably larger TV Transmitted area than the TNG clip. Did the TOS DVDs actually used a much larger frame than the TV transmitted area of TNG? In which case we're seeing a lot more picture than was ever originally intended. Or does that mean that the TV safe area marks likewise need to be re-sized to reflect the DVD clip as that is the way it was originally cropped for TV in the 1960s?

353

However, my argument for cropping to the action safe area is even stronger here. 1950s & 60s TVs definitely did not display more than the action safe area, if that. So it is unlikely that the director and DP intended to include anything outside of the action safe frame. So cropping the height to action safe, and including the full width of the available aperture, the result is similar to doing the same thing with TNG, and this to me is suitable compromise (assuming I have the correct TV safe ratios to Academy aperture).

353
Edited by Mac128 - 7/8/12 at 7:40pm
post #1720 of 2431
Looks like we'll be getting a little more info @ Comic Con:
http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/24350/-trek-tng-blu-ray-panel-abrams-short
Quote:
The panel, taking place next Thursday at 2pm in Room 7AB, will give attendees an insider’s look at how the original film elements were transferred into high-definition, and how the visual effects were painstakingly recreated from the source material to look better than ever. New photo comparisons have also cropped up showcasing some of the visual effects improvements such as the Crystalline Entity...

Pretty much everyone involved in the restoration will be on the panel including famed Trek consultants Mike and Denise Okuda, and the Godfather of Geekdom himself Robert Meyer Burnett who will serve as moderator.

New details have also emerged about the Blu-ray set which will include four key featurettes, each about 20-30 minutes. "Energized: Taking The Next Generation to the Next Level" deals with the actual restoration process and what went into this upgrade. Not only does it fully explain the process, it also definitively puts to rest one of the most persistent questions from fans - namely why they couldn't do these with 16:9 widescreen framing.

If ever there was a reason to actually go to CC, this is it!
post #1721 of 2431
The official Star Trek Facebook page is asking for questions:
Quote:
Want to know more about how Star Trek: The Next Generation was transformed into high-def? Submit your questions for the team behind it all right here!

https://www.facebook.com/StarTrek
post #1722 of 2431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac128 View Post

Hmmmm. That sort of suggests that they are doing the same thing they did with TOS, and doing all of the exterior shots in HD for future purposes. And that makes sense since the models were blue screened, and the effects are being digitally re-created.

There's no indication they're doing exterior shots in 1.78:1 for TNG (I'm assuming that's what you mean when you say "HD"). Remember that most of the time they're using original elements (including matte paintings that were created with 4:3 in mind) ... and with the exception of any elements shot for the pilot in VistaVision (1.5:1), that means 1.33:1 for TNG's exterior shots. TOS could do 1.78:1 for its exteriors because they were re-done completely using CGI.
post #1723 of 2431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Everett View Post

There's no indication they're doing exterior shots in 1.78:1 for TNG (I'm assuming that's what you mean when you say "HD").
I'm referring specifically to this quote:
Quote:
Robert Meyer Burnett ‏@BurnettRM
You know what looks cool in HD? The Romulan Warbird firing on
the Romulan Scout in "The Defector." Oh wait...I'm getting ahead of
myself.
This to me suggested that they may be future purposing the EFX shots, whether they include live elements or not. And I just realized I got ahead of myself, substituting 16:9 for "HD". Sorry.

However, when I say this is possible, it's because they were shooting the models against blue screen, so even if they are framing 4:3, the fact that the models are meant to be composited with other elements (e.g. star field, planets, phasers, etc.) suggests that the models could be moved around a 16:9 frame however they chose and there wouldn't necessarily be a problem with any of the dirty frame edges found in the live action (as they are lifted out of the frame altogether) ... not to mention of course star fields expanded, along with planets, etc. (all of which is CGI?) to fill the 16:9 space. Considering they did this with TOS (albeit completely in the digital realm), and they have created 16:9 crops that are being used for Japanese TV, and CBS Action TV in the UK, among others, I can only assume that CBS would at least attempt to do the same thing for TNG if possible to keep continuity with their sales packages. Imagine offering the Japanese TOS in 16:9 HD, but a series shot 20 years later only in 4:3. But as you keep saying, we should find out rather shortly.

Do we know they absolutely they shot the models using the same 4:3 Academy aperture that the live action was filmed with? I would think even then they might have appreciated the ability to use much more of the frame and re-frame a shot later if it looked better. I mean we are talking about models here, and a lot of expense to go back and fix something after it was dropped into the show in editorial to find it didn't work quite right with the live action. Why not shoot full aperture, and even a different ground-glass to take a center crop which would give them much more leeway in compositing? Especially since as I understand that process, it was completely different than the live action, using a completely different video frame-rate if I'm not mistaken. But maybe this has already been answered and I missed it.
Edited by Mac128 - 7/9/12 at 4:55pm
post #1724 of 2431
Ain't gonna happen.

They're going for director intent, and opening up the sides makes little sense for even FX shots in space. It would easily unbalance a lot of shots, especially those using stock footage.

Personally i'm glad they're not going that route. Never understood the "make it better" crowd. Those goalposts are always shifting. One look at the absolutely dreadful CGI used in TOS is all I need to prove it. Don't fix what it not broken, especially when you realistically don't have the resources or budget to do so.
post #1725 of 2431
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Ain't gonna happen.
They're going for director intent, and opening up the sides makes little sense for even FX shots in space. It would easily unbalance a lot of shots, especially those using stock footage.
Personally i'm glad they're not going that route. Never understood the "make it better" crowd. Those goalposts are always shifting. One look at the absolutely dreadful CGI used in TOS is all I need to prove it. Don't fix what it not broken, especially when you realistically don't have the resources or budget to do so.

That was my main issue with TOS' re-done shots. Some of them looked fantastic IMO. But overall I found it inconsistent. I still remember the unfinished CG from Operation: Annihilate! Absolutely awful looking. I can certainly appreciate the effort, but I'd rather see it go into presenting the series as originally intended first. Thankfully that appears to be what they're doing here.
post #1726 of 2431
IGN has an early review (take it with a grain of salt) http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/07/09/star-trek-the-next-generation-season-one-blu-ray-review

DNR and it sounds like a general softness due to too few discs...

Was hoping that softness of the earlier S1 released images was due to jpg compression, but now it appears that might not be the case.

frown.gif
Edited by TyrantII - 7/10/12 at 9:04am
post #1727 of 2431
If IGN of all places notices DNR that's not a good sign. They're usually awful at spotting technical flaws, crap has to generally be pretty blatant for them to pick up on it.
post #1728 of 2431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins View Post

If IGN of all places notices DNR that's not a good sign. They're usually awful at spotting technical flaws, crap has to generally be pretty blatant for them to pick up on it.
Perhaps they're just mistaking softness for DNR now? AFAIK, there wasn't any egregious DNR usage in the preview disc, so it'd be strange for it to show up in the complete season.

Ugh. I really hope this isn't the case. It puts a massive damper on my enthusiasm for this release.

*crosses fingers*
post #1729 of 2431
From the Okudas FB page:
Quote:
Digital noise reduction is applied sparingly. One main use is to try to equalize the amount of apparent film grain between different shots, to achieve a reasonably consistent look, otherwise the differences in grain between shots can sometimes be surprisingly jarring.

Which makes sense, especially with TV stock from the 80's. I'm fine if it's used a little, although some here are going to want none at all.

I'm also wondering if the 1-2% probably reduction in fidelity from squeezing it in 6 discs for the full reason?
post #1730 of 2431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deviation View Post

Perhaps they're just mistaking softness for DNR now? AFAIK, there wasn't any egregious DNR usage in the preview disc, so it'd be strange for it to show up in the complete season.
Ugh. I really hope this isn't the case. It puts a massive damper on my enthusiasm for this release.
*crosses fingers*
Well, something may have had to give so they could squeeze in 5 eps per disc. That said, people do tend to see the DNR boogeyman around every corner these days, using it as yet another buzz word to cover up the fact that they don't know WTF they're talking about, i.e. sometimes a soft shot is a soft shot.
post #1731 of 2431
Well, I hope the actual "Energized" documentary explains the widescreen problem better than the reviewers summary of it.

Geoff D, agreed. Sometimes a soft shot is a soft shot. Star Trek was one of the most exhausting series to shoot, according to some of the actors with whom I have spoken to at length about it. That being the case, it must have been a chore to get all the shots every day on their schedule. I can only imagine they chose to use a few takes that weren't perfect. The fact it lived in the video domain allowed a huge amount of leeway considering the entire show has looked "soft" for over 20 years ...
post #1732 of 2431
I'm still pretty excited either way. A restoration like this is first unheard of, and second quite an undertaking. Looking at the difference between these and the DVD's, there's not even a second of questioning which is superior by an order of magnitude. In the end at least the new film masters are there for an eventual 4K release way down the line too. I'm a little sad at the disc skimping and lack of commentaries, but ces la vi.

That CBS spent millions restoring a 25 year old television show edited on SD tape (one I grew up with) is beyond what I imagined would be commercially viable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac128 View Post

Well, I hope the actual "Energized" documentary explains the widescreen problem better than the reviewers summary of it.
Geoff D, agreed. Sometimes a soft shot is a soft shot. Star Trek was one of the most exhausting series to shoot, according to some of the actors with whom I have spoken to at length about it. That being the case, it must have been a chore to get all the shots every day on their schedule. I can only imagine they chose to use a few takes that weren't perfect. The fact it lived in the video domain allowed a huge amount of leeway considering the entire show has looked "soft" for over 20 years ...

How about no focus?

I'm still blown away by the change in focus on the sampler of SOTF where Worf is talking with Picard in his ready room. As they trade dialogue, the camera focus shifts with them slightly. It was completely unnoticeable in the Vaseline DVD's.
post #1733 of 2431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post

Well, something may have had to give so they could squeeze in 5 eps per disc. That said, people do tend to see the DNR boogeyman around every corner these days, using it as yet another buzz word to cover up the fact that they don't know WTF they're talking about, i.e. sometimes a soft shot is a soft shot.

So very true!! It's like the Salem Witch Trials with that word sometimes. IGN has zero PQ/AQ credibility so I wouldn't give it any credence.
post #1734 of 2431
It still would have been better if they had given the episodes more breathing room... I'm guessing the bitrate for these is in the teens?
post #1735 of 2431
There's a great continuing interview at TrekCore with Michael and Denise Okuda about the remastering project:

http://tng.trekcore.com/bluray/okuda1.html
http://tng.trekcore.com/bluray/okuda2.html

From part 2 of the interview, regarding a possible extended cut of "The Measure of a Man":
Quote:
Mike: ... When the Blu-Ray project started up, we emailed Melinda [Snodgrass -- the writer] and said ‘Hey, is there any chance you still have that VHS tape?’ And she was so kind. She just mailed it back to us – that’s why we have it.

Denise:
And everyone’s trying their darndest to make it happen. It’s kind of a crapshoot, but everybody is very enthusiastic that the process is going forward. Right now we can’t tell you if it’s going to be a happy ending, but everybody is very excited about the possibility and trying to make it happen.

Very interesting! So it does indeed appear that they are attempting to reconstruct the longer cut in HD! Otherwise, they would just digitize the VHS tape and be done with it. There'd be none of this talk about a "process going forward" or "trying their darndest" or it being a "crapshoot."

Excellent. Makes sense too, as it adds more value to the Season Two set, which is 4 episodes shorter than every other season. And they've done it before, including the alternate cut of "Where No Man Has Gone Before" on the Season Three TOS set. Of course, that was easier... they just had to scan a complete print they found.
post #1736 of 2431
By the way, if you were wondering what the Remmick mother creature from "Conspiracy" is going to look like in HD, here you go, courtesy of Robert Meyer Burnett's Twitter page:

conspiracycreature.jpg
post #1737 of 2431
Here's a screenshot comparison of the new image from "Conspiracy" that debuted at the TNG panel at ComicCon. Notice that in addition to the Enterprise element, the stars are also original, while the Earth and Moon are new CGI. Also, you'll notice that the original ILM VistaVision* Enterprise element as used here cannot fill the entire 1.78:1 frame -- in fact, it's only about 1.67:1, or 1812 pixels wide.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/135305

*VistaVision has an aspect ratio of 1.47:1 on the original camera negative and a maximum printer aperture ratio of approx. 1.68:1. See here: http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/vvspecs.htm

***

Direct links to new pics here:

http://static.ow.ly/photos/original/LcWc.jpg
http://static.ow.ly/photos/original/LcV9.jpg
http://static.ow.ly/photos/original/LcUd.jpg
http://static.ow.ly/photos/original/LcVO.jpg
Edited by Maxwell Everett - 7/12/12 at 5:51pm
post #1738 of 2431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac128 View Post

Hmmmm. That sort of suggests that they are doing the same thing they did with TOS, and doing all of the exterior shots in HD for future purposes. And that makes sense since the models were blue screened, and the effects are being digitally re-created.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Everett View Post

There's no indication they're doing exterior shots in 1.78:1 for TNG (I'm assuming that's what you mean when you say "HD"). Remember that most of the time they're using original elements (including matte paintings that were created with 4:3 in mind) ... and with the exception of any elements shot for the pilot in VistaVision (1.5:1), that means 1.33:1 for TNG's exterior shots. TOS could do 1.78:1 for its exteriors because they were re-done completely using CGI.

Looks like they are indeed doing the exterior shots in 1.78:1 (at least whenever using ILM VistaVision elements -- we'll have to wait and see what else they'll do this with). This is probably for streaming/broadcast similar to how TOS-R appeared on X-Box and in foreign markets:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/135305
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/135312
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/135313
post #1739 of 2431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Everett View Post

This is probably for streaming/broadcast similar to how TOS-R appeared on X-Box and in foreign markets
Very likely.
post #1740 of 2431
Great Shatner's ghost, those widescreen caps are delicious.
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