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turn off "dialog norm" on my ONKYO

post #1 of 46
8/14/10 at 10:19pm
Thread Starter 
I recently replaced my Sunfire (which did not have this problem) with an ONKYO pr-sc5507p. Running HDMI from DirecTV the audio dropped out 4 times to change the "dialog norm" while watching Futurama (the show is only 28 minutes long). These dropouts are a major interruption.
I have read on this forum that the audio drops out for 1 to 3 seconds on many ONKYO receivers and pre-pros during "dialog norm".
Does anyone know how to turn off this terribly annoying feature?
I don't EVER want to see "Dialog norm" again.
I wish I still had my old Pre/Pro
Sometimes "upgrade fever" makes you take a big step backwards.
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post #2 of 46
8/14/10 at 10:57pm
I don't think dialog norm means what you think it means.

I bet those drop outs were just issues in the satellite connection or broadcast.
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post #3 of 46
8/14/10 at 11:58pm
If your STB is a Motorola VIP 1225 or 1200, that's where the problem lies. I use that box for ATT Uverse and it's a known problem that either ATT or Motorola can't fix due to something in the signal chain (I've read). I think it effects different folks, different ways. For me, it's when I'm setup for Surround sound via HDMI for DD5.1 programing. I get minimal dropouts from the DD program, but any programing in stereo format has incessant dropouts. If I check off the Stereo box in the STBs options, then no dropouts, I just don't get DD.
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post #4 of 46
8/15/10 at 6:02am
I believe your receiver reports the dialnorm value briefly after locking onto an audio stream. For some reason, the audio stream to your receiver is being interrupted from time to time. And, whenever your Onkyo is able to lock back onto the audio, it displays the dialnorm information. But, dialnorm is a symptom of the problem, not the cause. It can't be. Dialnorm is not something that varies during playback. It is a value in the metadata that is used by some decoders at the start of playback to adjust the master volume level. It is also used by Dolby decoders to set the optimal compression point for Dynamic Range Control.
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post #5 of 46
8/15/10 at 6:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

If your STB is a Motorola VIP 1225 or 1200, that's where the problem lies. I use that box for ATT Uverse and it's a known problem that either ATT or Motorola can't fix due to something in the signal chain (I've read). I think it effects different folks, different ways. For me, it's when I'm setup for Surround sound via HDMI for DD5.1 programing. I get minimal dropouts from the DD program, but any programing in stereo format has incessant dropouts. If I check off the Stereo box in the STBs options, then no dropouts, I just don't get DD.

OP states he has directv. It is most likely a directv issue as when I had drop outs with them I would see the same thing...
just my 2 cents...
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post #6 of 46
8/15/10 at 6:29am
You're missing an option to vote for: It's a DirecTV issue that DirecTV claims they don't have.
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post #7 of 46
8/15/10 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Easyaspie View Post

You're missing an option to vote for: It's a DirecTV issue that DirecTV claims they don't have.

There are a few options missing for this poll - for me it would be 'I have DTV and have no audio dropouts' - with an Integra DHC 40.1.
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post #8 of 46
8/16/10 at 9:19am
Thread Starter 
hmm...
I would add more options to the poll, but I do not see how.

The dropouts during "dialog norm" also happen with DVD, Playstation3, and Xbox360.
I notice it the most with DirecTV, because it happens a few seconds after resuming from fast-forward (most of the time), on some commercials, and changing channels.
A friend that recommended the ONKYO also has this problem on his 803. He says it does not bother him. I went to his house, and the problem is identical.
I also found the problem at a local Integra dealer.

Please see these other posts about this problem:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2331

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1207

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2139

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1840

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2442

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1786

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1263

So, I have come to these conclusions:
1 - ONKYO does not let you turn "dialog norm" off.
2 - It only bothers some people.
3 - My preamp is working "as designed". There is nothing to fix.
4 - It bothers me enough that I need to replace my preamp.
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post #9 of 46
8/16/10 at 9:30am
Dialnorm is part of DD, and it can never be turned OFF in consumer equipment. Dialnorm is always in use for DD material, and does nothing more than lower volume by a fixed amount that is based in the Dialnorm value used in the program encoding process.

You do have a dropout problem, but it is not caused by the use of DD Dialnorm. Your particular receiver happens to display the Dialnorm offset value each time the DD stream gets locked in after a dropout.
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post #10 of 46
8/16/10 at 9:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Dialnorm is part of DD, and it can never be turned OFF in consumer equipment. Dialnorm is always in use for DD material, and does nothing more than lower volume by a fixed amount that is based in the Dialnorm value used in the program encoding process.

You do have a dropout problem, but it is not caused by the use of DD Dialnorm. Your particular receiver happens to display the Dialnorm offset value each time the DD stream gets locked in after a dropout.

This
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post #11 of 46
8/16/10 at 9:35am
It sounds like an HDMI handshake issue. The Onkyo is not working as designed. I would check all the HDMI cables. Although unlikely, there is a remote chance the cables are defective. I would pay special attention to the HDMI cable that goes to the TV. With my 1007, if that cable is not communicating, the sources connected to the receiver will not work as well. If all your cables are fine, I would return the unit. Another long shot is heat by the HDMI board on the back of the receiver. That area gets really hot. I have a fan that sits on that corner and keeps the unit cool.
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post #12 of 46
8/16/10 at 9:43am
Dial-Norm is in use by all AVR's that have Dolby Digital. On some you see the display and others you don't. I get the same thing with both my Yamaha 2600 and the Onkyo 876. It's a signal change that the AVR is trying to account for. From a stereo broadcast to DD signal. Not all channels and material are created equal.
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post #13 of 46
8/17/10 at 11:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Dialnorm is part of DD, and it can never be turned OFF in consumer equipment. Dialnorm is always in use for DD material, and does nothing more than lower volume by a fixed amount that is based in the Dialnorm value used in the program encoding process.

You do have a dropout problem, but it is not caused by the use of DD Dialnorm. Your particular receiver happens to display the Dialnorm offset value each time the DD stream gets locked in after a dropout.

This preamp is ONKYO pro, but you still can not turn off dialog norm. If there was a small unit that would remove the Dialnorm metadata from the bitstream, I would buy it.

I have been watching it closely - and the dialog norm message with its short dropout happens just a few seconds after locking in to the audio. So it sometimes happens after changing scenes in a video game, or after fast forwarding or changing scenes in a dvd, BluRay, or DirecTV.
But the unit (and the 2 other ONKYOs that I have checked) picks up the audio for a few seconds, then drops the audio for a moment while it sets Dialog Norm.
In the posts I quote there are other ONKYO owners that report the exact same behavior.
It is NOT the cable. It happens with all digital connection types from all sources.

I wonder if my old Sunfire just ignored the Dialnorm metadata?
After reading up - you learn that Dialnorm ONLY changes playback level.
- I can do that myself (it is called Volume).
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post #14 of 46
8/17/10 at 11:22am
^^^

you CANNOT turn dialnorm off (nor would you want to if you could)... it's not a function of the avr, it's a function of the source...

some avr's handle changes in the audio stream more gracefully than others...
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post #15 of 46
8/17/10 at 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mad_cow_w_knife View Post

I have been watching it closely - and the dialog norm message with its short dropout happens just a few seconds after locking in to the audio.

Mad Cow Disease, listen carefully, as other posters have explained this to you several times over. But you just do not seem to get it.

Dialog normalization is not causing your audio dropouts. Rather, audio dropouts are causing the dialog normalization display to appear whenever the audio is reacquired. Your logic is erroneously reversed -- a classic post hoc fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

So, you need to stop this irrational vendetta against dialog normalization and, instead, find the true cause of your audio dropouts (e.g. defective cable, intermittent source(s), HDMI handshake issues w/ pre/pro or display, etc.).

AJ
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post #16 of 46
8/17/10 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mad_cow_w_knife View Post

After reading up - you learn that Dialnorm ONLY changes playback level.
- I can do that myself (it is called Volume).

nope. read more....
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post #17 of 46
8/17/10 at 2:12pm
This is NOT an Onkyo only issue. It is definitely a DirecTV problem. I had the same dropouts with my NR-5007 until I changed to Cable. No more dropouts after changing to a DVR Cable Box.
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post #18 of 46
8/17/10 at 2:43pm
Try disabling DD on your sat receiver,It solved the problem for me as far as the dropouts go.
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post #19 of 46
8/17/10 at 2:48pm
^^^

sure, by not sending dd... it's a "workaround", but not a particularly palatable one...

that solution reminds me of the old joke...

patient: "doc, my elbow hurts when i do this"
doctor: "so don't do that anymore"
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post #20 of 46
8/17/10 at 3:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

sure, by not sending dd... it's a "workaround", but not a particularly palatable one...

that solution reminds me of the old joke...

patient: "doc, my elbow hurts when i do this"
doctor: "so don't do that anymore"

Well,as far as the problem with Directv,according to folks at dbstalk forum they are well aware of this problem and are working on a fix.If the dropouts bother the OP enough,at least he has an option in the meantime.
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post #21 of 46
8/18/10 at 8:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

Originally Posted by mad_cow_w_knife
After reading up - you learn that Dialnorm ONLY changes playback level.
- I can do that myself (it is called Volume).
ccotnj Reply - nope. read more....

If you read encoding manuals, you will find stuff like this DTS manual quote:
Dialog Normalization is the use of metadata to control playback level. It has no effect on encoding or decoding. It is an instruction to playback equipment to adjust the level of all channels, post-decoding.
A single DIALNORM value is applied to a given program: level is not adjusted within a program. There is no compression involved. All channels are affected equally. DIALNORM can only attenuate.
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post #22 of 46
8/18/10 at 8:33am
^^^

again, read more...

good luck...
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post #23 of 46
8/18/10 at 8:51am
Ditto on a DirecTV issue.....although Onkyo receivers may to be more adversely affected than others. I've been trying to help a friend with DiagNorm dropouts with no luck. Onkyo receiver (s). Certain stations with DD seem to be worse than others. Using digital instead of HDMI connections does not help. DirecTV is of no help.

John
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post #24 of 46
8/18/10 at 9:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dormie1360 View Post

Ditto on a DirecTV issue.....although Onkyo receivers may to be more adversely affected than others. I've been trying to help a friend with DiagNorm dropouts with no luck. Onkyo receiver (s). Certain stations with DD seem to be worse than others. Using digital instead of HDMI connections does not help. DirecTV is of no help.

John

These are not "issues", these are normal occurrences. Yamaha's, Onkyo's, and others will show the same thing. As has been stated many times on this thread it is a "normal" occurrence. It happens with Cable,DISH,Direct TV, DVD's, HD-DVD's, and Blu-Ray Disc. Whenever there is a change in the signal being processed you may or may not see this dial norm display on the AVR's display. It happens a lot. I feel that the OP is having a problem grasping this concept. It's not HDMI, its not optical either. The only way around it is to connect everything by analog. Of course most here know the problems associated with that type of feed. No Eq programs will work. So the OP has a couple of options. Go all analog, go through many AVR's that will not display this "as he calls fault". You can for sure cross off Onkyo and Yamaha from that list, as they will give you this message.
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post #25 of 46
8/18/10 at 10:04am
For the OP and others with a "dial norm" problem please read the article below for an excellent explaination on how this is done and why. It's also a rant about dial norm. But needed for explained reasons. Hope it helps.



http://hiltonmm.com/2010/06/dolby-and-dialnorm-rants/
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post #26 of 46
8/18/10 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom52 View Post

These are not "issues", these are normal occurrences. Yamaha's, Onkyo's, and others will show the same thing. As has been stated many times on this thread it is a "normal" occurrence. It happens with Cable,DISH,Direct TV, DVD's, HD-DVD's, and Blu-Ray Disc. Whenever there is a change in the signal being processed you may or may not see this dial norm display on the AVR's display. It happens a lot. I feel that the OP is having a problem grasping this concept. It's not HDMI, its not optical either. The only way around it is to connect everything by analog. Of course most here know the problems associated with that type of feed. No Eq programs will work. So the OP has a couple of options. Go all analog, go through many AVR's that will not display this "as he calls fault". You can for sure cross off Onkyo and Yamaha from that list, as they will give you this message.

Ahhhh no. I understand what Dialog Normal is and does. I would agree what Dialog Norm does is a "normal" part of DD. I would not agree that this includes actual audio dropouts as being a "normal" result of this meta data parameter. It shouldn't happen, and does not on most DD sources/ receivers that I've listened to. I've listened to DirecTV boxes with Onkyo receivers and it's a problem.

Regards,
John

Just read the link you provided...good stuff. I don't think this changes the fact that certain hardware are not handling Diag Norm as well as they should.
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post #27 of 46
8/18/10 at 10:36am
geez... why is this so hard to understand?

the dropouts are NOT being caused by dialnorm... you are seeing the dialnorm setting message as a result of re-acquisition of audio....
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post #28 of 46
8/18/10 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

geez... why is this so hard to understand?

the dropouts are NOT being caused by dialnorm... you are seeing the dialnorm setting message as a result of re-acquisition of audio....


Ok, I'm willing to "un-dense" myself. So you are saying these are simple audio dropouts. When this happens and the signal is re-acquired DD sources will display Diag Norm when the acquisition happens. So, although the problem seems to be specific to DD sources, at least with my experience, the problem is not specifically do to an issue with Diag Norm. The Diag Norm display is just a bye product of the acquisition.

Well.....I guess thats certainly possible. I'd like to know why this problem is specific to DD sources only.....at least with the problems I've seen. I did see a blurb on a DBSTalk link wear someone said they had a DirecTV tech tell them it was a "normalization" problem. I guess YMMV on a lot of what's posted on these forums.

Bottom line, I hope it gets fixed.

John
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post #29 of 46
8/18/10 at 11:35am
^^^

yup. consider yourself "un-densed"...

no, it's not "possible", it's "certain"...

the reason you only see the dialnorm message with dd is because it's a function of dd (or dts)...
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post #30 of 46
8/18/10 at 11:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dormie1360 View Post

Ahhhh no. I understand what Dialog Normal is and does. I would agree what Dialog Norm does is a "normal" part of DD. I would not agree that this includes actual audio dropouts as being a "normal" result of this meta data parameter. It shouldn't happen, and does not on most DD sources/ receivers that I've listened to. I've listened to DirecTV boxes with Onkyo receivers and it's a problem.

Regards,
John

Just read the link you provided...good stuff. I don't think this changes the fact that certain hardware are not handling Diag Norm as well as they should.

You seem to be blaming this on Onkyo. Not so. It happened all the time with a Yamaha 2600 and models before it also. This occurred with the sources I stated above. I'm using DISH and have been for years. I saw way back when and I'm seeing it all the time now. Is it a problem, no. The hardware problems lies with the boxes that are provided by the companies, not the AVR's. How many times have you seen here or anywhere else a digital problem with telecommunication boxes? The ONLY fix is analog. If the OP has a problem seeing dial norm on his Onkyo's display I gave him some options. He should try them or put black tape over his AVRs' display. He is going to have audio dropouts with a digital connection, especially with HDMI. Its been a problem since its inception and will continue to be a problem until a new connection type comes along. And one will.
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