or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Gaming & Content Streaming › Networking, Media Servers & Content Streaming › New Dune HD Max and HD Smart anticipation thread Q3 2010
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

New Dune HD Max and HD Smart anticipation thread Q3 2010 - Page 316

post #9451 of 10800
I just noticed a problem with My Dune Smart H1. Looking at a Grayscale gradient ramp test pattern, the Dune exhibits banding issues. The same disc on a Bluray player shows a nice even gradient from Black through grays to white. Researching this, this can happen with problems with color space conversion. Anyone have any ideas how to fix this, if it's even possible? I tried playing with different color spaces under Settings to no avail.

Thanks!
post #9452 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_hs10 View Post

Sorry I am new, but what does BD lite mean? Does it look and sound the same as a regular 3d BD iso?

No need to apologize. From what i understand, its basically a dumbed down version of the Bluray. It just plays the movie title. No menus, trailers, etc.
post #9453 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_hs10 View Post

Does any body know if the new dunes base 3d will play 3D BD ISO? I am not seeing it under their spec.

Yes, just the main movie though (no menus)
post #9454 of 10800
The Dune players force 4:4:4 colorspace. I have always preferred to use 4:2:2 in my setup as it works best for my display and processor. Ideally I would have the source (Dune, Bluray player, etc.) send 4:2:2 colorspace to my processor (DVDO DUO) which would convert that to 4:4:4 at the display. By the Dune forcing the issue it introduces problems that could be avoided if it simply passed through the video or had a "source direct" setting. I have just learned to live with it as there are so many tradeoffs with all media players. I have the Dune for convenience of playback but if you want reference video it's not going to be possible through a media player. Stick to an Oppo Bluray player for that.
post #9455 of 10800
I'm sure this has been answered before, but I couldn't find it in the thread.

What is the difference between "Play" and "Play (lite)"? I have no problems playing a file using Play (lite) but when using play, it will often stutter.
post #9456 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Galt View Post

I'm sure this has been answered before, but I couldn't find it in the thread.

What is the difference between "Play" and "Play (lite)"? I have no problems playing a file using Play (lite) but when using play, it will often stutter.

Play lite uses BD Lite and will play the main movie. I personally would only use the Play mode (full BD support). BD Lite has issues with forced subtitles, seamless branch, etc...
post #9457 of 10800
I have movie only rips. Forced subtitle issues aside, would there be a difference for me between the two?
post #9458 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Galt View Post

I have movie only rips. Forced subtitle issues aside, would there be a difference for me between the two?

As dbone indicated, seamless branching is also a problem (or even in the event you rip just one version the fact that it consists of multiple files that's also a problem). Also, I wouldn't think of forced subtitles as an aside - it's a rather important issue and a large percentage of movies have them. I see absolutely no reason to use bd-lite if you have access to full bd playback. Don't think of the fact you have ripped just the movie only, even where you have done that it still contains an overall disc structure that indicates to the player what to do with multiple-file movies and when to display forced subtitles - this is absent in BD-lite.

The presence of just BD-lite in the next generation of Dune/PCH players makes me wonder why anyone is interested.
post #9459 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVT View Post

As dbone indicated, seamless branching is also a problem (or even in the event you rip just one version the fact that it consists of multiple files that's also a problem). Also, I wouldn't think of forced subtitles as an aside - it's a rather important issue and a large percentage of movies have them. I see absolutely no reason to use bd-lite if you have access to full bd playback. Don't think of the fact you have ripped just the movie only, even where you have done that it still contains an overall disc structure that indicates to the player what to do with multiple-file movies and when to display forced subtitles - this is absent in BD-lite.

The presence of just BD-lite in the next generation of Dune/PCH players makes me wonder why anyone is interested.

Agreed, if you have the option (which Dune Smart users are lucky to have the choice) just stick with Full BD.

My Dune TV303D arrived yesterday, so it will be interesting to see how they implement BD Lite. As of now though it appears that all players that use BD Lite suffer from the same problems
post #9460 of 10800
Thanks guys, guess it's time to start looking at why my files are stuttering during playback under full BD then.

And completely agree about forced subs being important, I was just weighing the different options.
post #9461 of 10800
Interesting, just set up the TV303D. Tested briefly with The Avengers 3D ISO over smb, first few minutes played flawless with full DTSMA pass thru. The Avengers 3D ISO over smb on the PCH A-400 craps out pretty quick. This is just preliminary testing as I still need to dig a bit more into it, but so far off to a promising start
post #9462 of 10800
Can you check subtitles playback on it too, please?
post #9463 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

Can you check subtitles playback on it too, please?

Specifically what, forced subs in mkvs and BR Folder structures?
post #9464 of 10800
Blurays specifically. I have all my rips at full bd iso, 3d as well.

Lite mode is worrying me regarding subtitles.
post #9465 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

Interesting, just set up the TV303D. Tested briefly with The Avengers 3D ISO over smb, first few minutes played flawless with full DTSMA pass thru. The Avengers 3D ISO over smb on the PCH A-400 craps out pretty quick. This is just preliminary testing as I still need to dig a bit more into it, but so far off to a promising start

The Avengers 3D BD ISO was one of the titles that played well over SMB in my setups to my A400s.
post #9466 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

Blurays specifically. I have all my rips at full bd iso, 3d as well.

Lite mode is worrying me regarding subtitles.

OK, I have District 9 as a full disc rip, that is my go to one to test for forced sub support, will let you know

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

The Avengers 3D BD ISO was one of the titles that played well over SMB in my setups to my A400s.

Funny enough, The Avengers is one of the ones that doesn't work for me over smb on the A400
post #9467 of 10800
OK, tested full disc for forced subtitle support (District 9) and seamless branch (Toy Story 3). As expected with BD lite neither is supported (although I will say that the Dune had the closest gap b/w m2ts files with seamless branch out of all the players I have tested so far)
post #9468 of 10800
Thanks for testing and sharing. I assume the base 3d would be the same with forced subs. Quite disappointing. Perhaps the intel based max will have full support for menu and subs.
post #9469 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

Thanks for testing and sharing. I assume the base 3d would be the same with forced subs. Quite disappointing. Perhaps
the intel based max will have full support for menu and subs.

Yes, this affects all players that rely on bd lite. As of now the intel based max is supposed to have full bd support so hopefully that means proper forced sub and seamless branch support
post #9470 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by dropzone7 View Post

The Dune players force 4:4:4 colorspace. I have always preferred to use 4:2:2 in my setup as it works best for my display and processor. Ideally I would have the source (Dune, Bluray player, etc.) send 4:2:2 colorspace to my processor (DVDO DUO) which would convert that to 4:4:4 at the display. By the Dune forcing the issue it introduces problems that could be avoided if it simply passed through the video or had a "source direct" setting. I have just learned to live with it as there are so many tradeoffs with all media players. I have the Dune for convenience of playback but if you want reference video it's not going to be possible through a media player. Stick to an Oppo Bluray player for that.

That explains the banding issue. Thanks! Way too bad really. Is this a chip limitation, or a stupid design decision?
post #9471 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

Yes, this affects all players that rely on bd lite. As of now the intel based max is supposed to have full bd support so hopefully that means proper forced sub and seamless branch support

Is there a "just play the movie mode" anymore? I have PCH A200 and I don't use bd lite (I'm not sure it's even supported on this box). The A200 plays forced subs just fine from my movie only BDMV folder rips. Are we saying that all these new machines don't support forced subs in BDMV folder or ISO rips? Or only BD lite doesn't support it and you can still just "play the move" in movie only mode?

Sorry for the confusing questions, but I'm not sure I understand the limitations in these newer machines.
post #9472 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirnak View Post

That explains the banding issue. Thanks! Way too bad really. Is this a chip limitation, or a stupid design decision?

I think it may be a design decision because Dune has never confirmed to me that it was a limitation of the Sigma chip. I submitted a ticket on their site over a year ago and while they have told me they are "working on it", I doubt it will ever be fixed because not enough people care or notice. I'm not sure what makes it so difficult to just pass video untouched to a processor or display. As with many manufacturers, they think they are helping by processing video with inferior components.
post #9473 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejhuzy View Post

Is there a "just play the movie mode" anymore? I have PCH A200 and I don't use bd lite (I'm not sure it's even supported on this box). The A200 plays forced subs just fine from my movie only BDMV folder rips. Are we saying that all these new machines don't support forced subs in BDMV folder or ISO rips? Or only BD lite doesn't support it and you can still just "play the move" in movie only mode?

Sorry for the confusing questions, but I'm not sure I understand the limitations in these newer machines.

BD Lite is the play the movie only mode. The A200 supports full BD menus, as does the Dune Smart series, which is why they don't need to use BD Lite. So yes, any new player (which will only support playback of BR Rips in folder or ISO via BD Lite) will suffer these problems. The workarounds will be:

a) Use Clown_BD to create a main movie rip. This will address the seamless branch issue but not the forced sub issue
b) Create an mkv. This should address both issues (as long as the player supports the forced subtitle flag in mkvs)
post #9474 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by dropzone7 View Post

I think it may be a design decision because Dune has never confirmed to me that it was a limitation of the Sigma chip. I submitted a ticket on their site over a year ago and while they have told me they are "working on it", I doubt it will ever be fixed because not enough people care or notice. I'm not sure what makes it so difficult to just pass video untouched to a processor or display. As with many manufacturers, they think they are helping by processing video with inferior components.

Can you explain how outputting at 4:4:4 causes banding? I don't recall seeing any banding on my JVC RS35 with the Dune. Do you see banding like the other poster?

Kirnak - What is your display? Can you set your BD player to output 4:4:4 to see if it is a problem with the Dune or with your display?

edit: Also check to see what bit depth you are sending out from the Dune and experiment with changing it to see if the banding goes away.
Edited by mrlittlejeans - 1/25/13 at 1:07pm
post #9475 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

Can you explain how outputting at 4:4:4 causes banding? I don't recall seeing any banding on my JVC RS35 with the Dune. Do you see banding like the other poster?

Kirnak - What is your display? Can you set your BD player to output 4:4:4 to see if it is a problem with the Dune or with your display?

edit: Also check to see what bit depth you are sending out from the Dune and experiment with changing it to see if the banding goes away.

It's definately a Dune issue. My Bluray player plays the same test pattern just fine. I can't expalin the math, but when you screw too much with the color space banding is one issue you get. I'll see if setting my BR player to 4:4:4 causes the same problem.
post #9476 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

BD Lite is the play the movie only mode. The A200 supports full BD menus, as does the Dune Smart series, which is why they don't need to use BD Lite. So yes, any new player (which will only support playback of BR Rips in folder or ISO via BD Lite) will suffer these problems. The workarounds will be:

a) Use Clown_BD to create a main movie rip. This will address the seamless branch issue but not the forced sub issue
b) Create an mkv. This should address both issues (as long as the player supports the forced subtitle flag in mkvs)

Thanks for the reply.

So I'm good with "a" because all my rips are main movie only rips done with Clown. The forced subtitle issue is disappointing. Is there any chance that will ever work? What do we do with BD Lite and forced subs? Turn them on manually to see them?
post #9477 of 10800
Yep, sure enough it's the 4:4:4 colorspace causing the problem. Put the BR player in 4:4:4, same issue. Put the BR player in either 4:2:2 or RGB and it plays perfectly.

My understanding is that the conversion that has to take place with 4:4:4 ends up in some numbers being rounded off. So, rather than a nice even gradient, you get jumps from one gray to the next. What you see with a gray gradient test pattern is banding. The jump from one gray to the next is clearly defined rather than a smooth change. So, will you see it watchinga movie? Depending on the material I think it might be hard to spot per se, but I think it's a definate degradation. If it's not a chip limitation then it's a pretty stupid design choice by Dune. Too bad there's nothing better as of yet. Maybe it's time to give up on media players and just burn main movie backups to BD-R and get an Oppo. I hate playing my original discs. I hate the hassle of getting to the main movie and I want to avoid exposing the original to possible damage.
post #9478 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by dropzone7 View Post

I think it may be a design decision because Dune has never confirmed to me that it was a limitation of the Sigma chip. I submitted a ticket on their site over a year ago and while they have told me they are "working on it", I doubt it will ever be fixed because not enough people care or notice. I'm not sure what makes it so difficult to just pass video untouched to a processor or display. As with many manufacturers, they think they are helping by processing video with inferior components.

FWIW the new Intel based Max is rumored to have a video pass through feature.
post #9479 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

FWIW the new Intel based Max is rumored to have a video pass through feature.

That would be good! Hopefully, they'll fix the audio dropouts with 7.1 ch lossless audio as well.
post #9480 of 10800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirnak View Post

Yep, sure enough it's the 4:4:4 colorspace causing the problem. Put the BR player in 4:4:4, same issue. Put the BR player in either 4:2:2 or RGB and it plays perfectly.
.

In a perfect world where all color space conversions are done correctly, it makes no difference at all what a display is receiving, they should all look the same. Apparently your display is unable to handle its processing when 4:4:4 is input, but that's not the player's fault. Fact is that some of the best displays ever made have had issues with specific color space conversions, or with general processing with specific input. It's also true that 4:4:4 is pretty much the standard for player output, and if you set a player to output based on EDID handshake, (auto), chances are good your display will ask for 4:4:4.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Gaming & Content Streaming › Networking, Media Servers & Content Streaming › New Dune HD Max and HD Smart anticipation thread Q3 2010