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JL ProWedge vs. Build it Myself

post #1 of 19
8/19/10 at 5:22am
Thread Starter 
I'm trying to find a sub (or build one myself) that would sound good for home theater and music. My benchmark is the JL F110, but I don't want to drop $2K on a sub. Also, no other sub that I've come across that's reasonably sized, has a more-capable woofer than the 10W7 with its 3 or so inches of excursion.

One thought would be to just use a JL Prowedge with a 10w7 and power it with a large enough amp that could handle the 3 ohm load. These can be had for $500 new.

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_e...=5&prod_id=302

I am, however, concerned that it won't be able to extend as low as the F110, but will it come close in room? The F3 of the optimal sealed 10w7 enclosure is 40.7 hz. That seems kind of high. The net air volume of this Prowedge is right around 1.25 cubic feet after subtracting for the woofer's displacement.

The room is about 14x15x13.
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post #2 of 19
8/19/10 at 5:34am
I did a quick look and found the driver for around $400. So by the time you add an amp and the cabinet construction you will be at around $600. IMHO I think this may be a $600 disappointment as Subs for cars don't always have what it takes to move the air needed for a large room.

I think you would do better auditioning subs designed for Home Theater.
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post #3 of 19
8/19/10 at 5:40am
Quote:


I'm trying to find a sub (or build one myself) that would sound good for home theater and music. My benchmark is the JL F110, but I don't want to drop $2K on a sub. Also, no other sub that I've come across that's reasonably sized, has a more-capable woofer than the 10W7 with its 3 or so inches of excursion.


You have not considered the LMS Ultra 18" ??? Its better then the 10W7. I would consider the AV15H from AEspeakers to be a great choice too. Excursion is not the only important parameters. There is surface area and sensitivity. The AV15H with PRs in a 24x24x24 is one hell of a performer (Just search for Warpdrv GTG, I think they had it up against the JL)

What is your budget?
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post #4 of 19
8/19/10 at 5:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

I did a quick look and found the driver for around $400. So by the time you add an amp and the cabinet construction you will be at around $600. IMHO I think this may be a $600 disappointment as Subs for cars don't always have what it takes to move the air needed for a large room.

I think you would do better auditioning subs designed for Home Theater.

Really? I thought the 10W7 was a monster of a sub. Is it more because of the small enclosure? I also ran the volume numbers and the F110 and the 10W7 Prowedge are pretty close to each other (around 1.3 cubic feet).

If I could get 75-80% of what the F110 will do (extension and output), I'd be pretty happy.
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post #5 of 19
8/19/10 at 5:45am
Nope, its not that impressive to DIYers

Its got great xmax but again that is only one piece of the puzzle.

Quote:


If I could get 75-80% of what the F110 will do (extension and output), I'd be pretty happy.

That is easy in the DIY world but you need to list your budget, size restrictions, room specs.

FWIW the F110 has no extension
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post #6 of 19
8/19/10 at 5:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Nope, its not that impressive to DIYers

Its got great xmax but again that is only one piece of the puzzle.



That is easy in the DIY world but you need to list your budget, size restrictions, room specs.

FWIW the F110 has no extension


Fair enough, I see your point. So, here are my constraints:

Budget: $600-700
Size: As small as possible...1 cu.ft. box ideal
Performance: Ideally able to play down to the mid 20 HZ (in-room) at medium volumes. No 130 db blasting in the condo. Also, no biggie if it can't do 10 hz.
Aesthetics: I want something that would look halfway decent and finished (no raw MDF, etc).
Sound: Tight, and musical, but also able to let loose for HT.

Oh, and room is open (connected to kitchen and hallway) about 13x14x13. I'm in a condo with neighbors, so I'll never be able to play super loud bass (that's why I have a system in my car ) I just want good extension and sound quality.
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post #7 of 19
8/19/10 at 6:25am
1 cuft is really small, not sure if you know that. Could you give a foot print in mind?

Also that is a pretty low budget for those objectives.
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post #8 of 19
8/19/10 at 6:42am
Recall Hoffman's Iron Law: extension, SPL, or small size: pick two.

Most DIY'ers choose to forgo the small size in preference of extension and SPL. As Penn mentioned, 1cuft is REALLY small. Please do post a footprint / dimensions, you may be surprised how much volume you have available. Going vertical is an easy way to get more volume without sacrificing floor space.
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post #9 of 19
8/19/10 at 7:07am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

1 cuft is really small, not sure if you know that. Could you give a foot print in mind?

Also that is a pretty low budget for those objectives.

Hmm...ideally no larger than 13x13x13, or one that's really long and narrow. Price is the main consideration, otherwise, I'd just get something from Epik or SVS. I actually had the SVS SB12-Plus but ended up selling it when I moved. Something around that size would be ideal, or something around the size of the JL Prowedge 10.
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post #10 of 19
8/19/10 at 7:12am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkiller4299 View Post

Recall Hoffman's Iron Law: extension, SPL, or small size: pick two.

Most DIY'ers choose to forgo the small size in preference of extension and SPL. As Penn mentioned, 1cuft is REALLY small. Please do post a footprint / dimensions, you may be surprised how much volume you have available. Going vertical is an easy way to get more volume without sacrificing floor space.

I live in a condo, so I can't have excessive SPL. I'd rather have good extension and small size. Those Sunfire subs look nice, but I've heard the sound quality is sloppy, and they're pretty expensive.

The JL Prowedge with the 10W7+ modest pro-amp would be in my budget, but if ya'll are saying it won't extend that deep or sound good, maybe this is just a hopeless endeavor?
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post #11 of 19
8/19/10 at 7:15am
You really need to download WinISD and start modelling some drivers to realize what is required.

A small box will need EQing (extra $$$) and will need more power to go low.
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post #12 of 19
8/19/10 at 7:17am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You really need to download WinISD and start modelling some drivers to realize what is required.

A small box will need EQing (extra $$$) and will need more power to go low.

Cool, I'd do it, but I've got a Mac...

Any recommendations for comparable Mac software?
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post #13 of 19
8/19/10 at 8:40am
Unibox is an Excel spreadsheet based calculator; should work with Mac Office. I'm at work or I'd slap some simple stuff together to give you an idea...

As Penn mentioned, going smaller is not impossible, but it does have it's challenges, additional power and EQ being the primary. If you're sure you want a super small sub, might as well take advantage of it. If you have any solder skills, here's a link to an EQ circuit that should give you a flat response pretty easily:

http://sound.westhost.com/project48.htm

By shifting the resonance frequency fairly high, we can then create a circuit to EQ the sound up at approximately the same rate as the response curve falls. I've modelled the effect in Winisd and it hold pretty true. The biggest issue is that using a lot of EQ means running into power/xmax issues down low, meaning you won't be able to go that low. But hey, perfect for you, right?
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post #14 of 19
8/19/10 at 9:41am
Unibox works on a mac. I use it on my mac. I would look at getting a Behringer EP2500 for around $250. A used Behringer MIC2200 for around $50. Then look at AE speakers or some thing from TC Sounds. You could look at a 12" driver with a couple of passive radiators.
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post #15 of 19
8/19/10 at 1:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Unibox works on a mac. I use it on my mac. I would look at getting a Behringer EP2500 for around $250. A used Behringer MIC2200 for around $50. Then look at AE speakers or some thing from TC Sounds. You could look at a 12" driver with a couple of passive radiators.

Given the small dimensions that I'm working with, would i be better off with just a sealed box and lots of power, or something with passive radiators. I'm thinking a ported box needs more volume to fit within my size constraints.
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post #16 of 19
8/19/10 at 1:47pm
Arg! Stupid network fried my post. Grrrrrr. As I was trying to say...

The primary diadvantage of passives is the cost. If you can swing it, great! But often the radiators end up costing more than the drivers themselves, so people find more economical alternatives.

mjg does have some good advice though. EP is good, cheap power, and the MIC2200 gives you a subsonic filter and 2 PEQ's to play with. There's a huge number of 12" subs you can choose from, and he lists a few good ones.

Or, if you wanted a really cool build, you could use opposed drivers. Take it to the extreme and give your 13" cube a driver on each surface! That gives you about the same cone area as an 18" driver. There's plenty of inexpensive, quality 8" drivers out there, just check out Parts Express.

But definitely sit down and get modelling! There's no better way to understand the compromises you need to make, learning how the volume, cone size, xmax, and power all fit into the equation.
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post #17 of 19
8/19/10 at 1:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkiller4299 View Post

Arg! Stupid network fried my post. Grrrrrr. As I was trying to say...

The primary diadvantage of passives is the cost. If you can swing it, great! But often the radiators end up costing more than the drivers themselves, so people find more economical alternatives.

mjg does have some good advice though. EP is good, cheap power, and the MIC2200 gives you a subsonic filter and 2 PEQ's to play with. There's a huge number of 12" subs you can choose from, and he lists a few good ones.

Or, if you wanted a really cool build, you could use opposed drivers. Take it to the extreme and give your 13" cube a driver on each surface! That gives you about the same cone area as an 18" driver. There's plenty of inexpensive, quality 8" drivers out there, just check out Parts Express.

But definitely sit down and get modelling! There's no better way to understand the compromises you need to make, learning how the volume, cone size, xmax, and power all fit into the equation.


Hmm, I like that. Sort of reminds me of this decocube subwoofer that Elemental Designs made with ten 10" subs.

I'll have to download that program after work and let y'all know what I came up with.
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post #18 of 19
8/19/10 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Unibox works on a mac. I use it on my mac.

In OSX or in some sort of cripple mode (Parallels, Boot Camp, VMWare, etc.)? What version of Office?

As for the OP, 13x13x13, under $700...sounds like a good case for a Peerless XXLS12+ PR to me.
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post #19 of 19
8/19/10 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

In OSX or in some sort of cripple mode (Parallels, Boot Camp, VMWare, etc.)? What version of Office?

As for the OP, 13x13x13, under $700...sounds like a good case for a Peerless XXLS12+ PR to me.

Excel, OSX.
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