HDMI over Cat5e problems and solutions, read before posting - Page 3

Yes I was looking at them earlier today, and posted a question in their home forum asking if one of the models could be adapted to run over RG6 instead of wireless. My situation (Tx and Rx units would both be inside/behind wooden doors, 30ft away from each other) puts their units on the extreme end of their advertised range for 1080p service. However, if their outputs can go to a coax cable instead of an antenna, that'd be sweet! I like the security of a wire over wireless, when I can swing it...

Please keep us posted on your progress as well!

..dane

Got a reply back-- no RG6 support for the Brite-view AirSyncHD. I have asked several more questions regarding compression and actual bandwidth for 1080p broadcasts. I'm not in the mood for lossy 1080p from a bluray...

will keep everyone posted as I learn more...


also, I have asked that this thread be renamed and moved to a more appropriate location:

New Title: HDMI over Cat5e Problems (Video blanks when fan, light, or air conditioner is turned on)
New Location: AV Control & Automation -> Subforum "Home A/V Distribution"

cheers,
..dane

Hey Ward.. If you're willing to chat sometime next week I'll send you a PM to get your phone number. Our room is in such a layout that I could possibly tuck two Cat6 cables around the baseboards. I just don't want to spend a whole lot more on disappointment.

will shoot you a PM.
..dane

I spoke with MilesTek today asking about their 20% restocking fee and long story short I was put in touch with one of their tech support people who said even the coax extenders do not work well with switchers or video processors, that they are designed to work "point to point" (bluray to TV, etc). And that I would likely still have problems (because I feed all my sources into a DVDO Edge video processor, and that if I did have problems I would be subject to their 20% restocking fee because it would not be a faulty product situation (after all, they're advising me that in fact it will not work in my configuration).

So that leaves me wondering, even if I got rid of my DVDO Edge input aggregator, I still wouldn't be able to run the bluray (Oppo) output into my AVR (Marantz) for lossless audio and then on to the TV... So what, these extenders don't support AVR outputs either? Source-Extender-TV is all that works? Surely there must be more to this puzzle than that!

I have a call scheduled Monday morning with the lead engineer at Vanco (who also makes a coax extender) who apparently is quite an expert on the matter and plan to ask him "what do I do?" I am willing to sell the DVDO Edge in lieu of something different, but I most certainly am not interested in going back to lossy optical audio out of my bluray player. At a minimum I would still need the HDMI going through my AVR and then on to the extender...

If only I knew all of this 3 years ago when the addition was built I would have run a 2" conduit with 45deg angles so that I could get HDMI cables with repeaters pulled through to the TV.

I might also end up having to try the Brite-view wireless HDMI. I'm not thrilled about it though since I have read folks having occasional dropouts there too. Last thing I want is to swap one problem for another.

Uggg....



..dane

Agreed- I'm totally baffled by that statement. Which is why I have a call scheduled to the lead engineer at Vanco. I'm hoping to get a log more details (engineer-to-engineer). I will of course relay what I find out here.

..dane

Spoke with the lead engineer at Vanco this morning. Super duper nice fellow. We spoke about twenty minutes or so...

In no particular order, things that were discussed:

• Annually the HDMI 'members' get together and test all their equipment's interoperability-- HDMI is tricky enough that this is necessray. If DVDO/ABT is not involved in this testing, there could be problems with their HDMI output.
• He has had some of his customers try everything under the sun with no success and finally he suggests to them "just try pulling a cable off your computer and try it" and low-and-behold it works! He indicated that even if you are careful and don't cross any wires, etc, etc., that terminating using insulation displacement connectors can just cause problems due to the ultra-high-speed nature of the digital signals traveling over them. He said to try using two long pre-made patch cables just to make sure that isn't the problem.
• In his opinion, Cat6 vs Cat5e shouldn't make much of a difference for 50ft. lengths. He indicated if you're running 100ft or more then it would make sense to go to Cat6.
• He said that while Europe uses shielded cat6, that generally speaking UTP works just fine.
• HDMI requires a nice and solid 5V output, and if you start dropping below 4.7V or so, it just won't work. When I told him that I tried a 5V inserter, he agreed that wasn't my problem then.
• Many of his customers also have their devices on the same circuits as lights (CCFLS, dimmers, etc) and appliances (dishwasher, washing machine, etc). Particularly causing problems in the hot summer when the power grid (in the US at least) is already sagging a bit due to high demand. When I indicated I had a dedicated breaker for the A/V equipment he agreed that was likely not my problem either.
• In his experience the HDMI-over-RG6 extenders have a higher signal-to-noise radio, which means they can go a lot longer distances before signal loss becomes a big problem. But more importantly, being RG6, it is shielded, and is much less susceptible to EMI and other radiated interference.

So my next plan of attack is to get two pre-made Cat6 patch cables today and try it tonight. I'm also going to hook up the output of my Marantz AVR to the Cat5 baluns to see how susceptible it is compared to the DVDO video processor.

After that I am thinking about getting the MilesTek hdmi-over-coax extender. I will likely have to sell the DVDO to pay for the extender. That causes some auto-input-switching inconvenience, but if the coax extender fixes the blank-out, then I'll consider it a worthy trade-off.

Then I may consider a Harmony remote for switching sources if the DVDO is out of the loop. But that bridge is a little further down the river and I'll cross it when I get there.

But first things first-- Cat6 50' patch cables...

..dane

Good idea! It would have to be wiki-based so that many folks could add their nugget of knowledge. Everybody has different wishes for their setup and I'm sure my experiences would only help a certain subset of people. And there would have to be subsets of the information base-- not everyone would probably be able to afford everything on the list. It would make more sense to include a "reasonable price-point" portion of the list so that people could get a feel for what they're wanting to do and how much it might cost them (pro installer labor costs excluded)...

Get somebody to setup a reputable wiki and I'll add my part!


Welcome Enane-- thanks for sharing your story. I'm really hoping this thread can be of use to people-- if nothing else than to warn them of potential problems with current generation Cat5/6/7 extenders. I'm also hopeful that we'll find at least one (ideally more) viable solution!


Well I got two 100' Cat6 (unshielded) patch cables from a reputable local supplier. Brand of cable was StarTech. Don't know if that's good or not, but it was the more expensive of the two brands they carried in Cat6. I got 100' because if it worked I was going to need to run them all the way around the room (behind/under the baseboards) since the conduit is full and I'm not interested (yet) in yanking it all out and starting over.

I unwound about 25' of each 100' cable, enough to reach across the floor to both extenders. ... (drum roll) ... no change. glitch still occurred.

Shielded Cat6 may in fact work better, I don't really know. In my mind if it really is an EMI burst causing problems then the extenders should be designed to handle/accommodate the bursts. I'm not really interested in attempting to design a Cat5 extender, but the question is still begging to be asked why the extenders cannot handle the EMI if that's in fact the root problem.

I then moved the source-side extender to connect to my Marantz SR8001 AVR. Seemed to be quite more resilient to the ceiling fan than the DVDO Edge's output. Glitch still occurred though. If that had fixed the problem then I would be considering a Harmony and use the Marantz AVR as my input switcher.

Someone contacted me via PM and had something for me to try-- I said I most certainly would. If that doesn't work then I'm relatively sure that I'll be ordering one of the MilesTek HDMI-over-Single-RG6 extenders and giving that a shot. Unfortunately due to their 20% restocking fee, I'll likely have to resort to selling it on eBay if it doesn't work.

..dane

I would normally agree-- but I've run the units off a UPS. If it is powerline noise and the powerline noise is too quick for a UPS to do anything about, then what's the next step solution? A $1500 power AC regenerator on each end (AV cabinet and TV)??

But your comment as re-sparked my curiosity.. So just for grins I'll see if I can again borrow two UPS's from the office, one for the TV and one for the AV rack, and I'll put them all on, running off BATTERY power (so they're fully disconnected from the power outlets) ... That should let us know once and for all if it's conducted or radiated problems.. I'll try to do this tonight and report back tomorrow...

If it's in fact powerline noise, then I just need a really good filter (hopefully) on both ends...

cheers,
..dane

Tried them last night. Unfortunately neither UPS could handle the TV power requirement. They must be getting aged a little. But they could handle the entire AV rack just fine. So with the entire AV-rack running off UPS battery power and the TV plugged into the wall --- (drum roll please) --- glitch still occurred.

duh-oh!

I was pulling for it being a power problem. And who knows, it still could be. The TV was still plugged in.

I have previously run the Arkview Cat5e balun wall adapter (located at the TV side) off a UPS (in battery mode), and the glitch still occurred. So last night was a good test. Unfortunately no change. A bit frustrating to be sure...

..dane

very interesting! I would be curious about how many other readers of this thread have experienced similar results (single cable baluns working better than dual cable baluns).

cheers,
..dane

wish I'd known that before I started!

So are all single-cable adapters better than dual-cable? I had just naturally thought that dual-cable adapters were "better" because they weren't trying to shove as much through so few wires. I was actually wishing there were quad-cable adapters since I had two extra Cat5 runs in the wall to spread out the signal even more (thinking it would be more stable)......

..dane

But unfortunately the Arkview HDMI-EXTC dual-Cat5e extenders are only using equalizers on the TDMS lines. The other wires (including DDC channel) are strictly pass-through. I suppose the thought is that it is higher voltage (5V) and slower (I2C, so probably 100kHz). Whatever they're doing, it wasn't working for me at least...


Hey beemer533, yes it's been quite frustrating for me, I can only imagine everyone the frustrations of everyone else going through the same situation(s)! I most certainly am very glad that your dual-catx extenders have not given you any trouble!



Now for an update on my story...

Well I'm pleased to say that I have been testing out a single-CatX extender (as opposed on the dual-CatX extender that a I have been using) for the past week or so and my problems seem to have vanished. Still using the same Cat5e self-terminated cable (just one instead of two). I don't want to be too premature, but so far I have yet to see any glitching occur--- even when I flip the ceiling fan switch like a mad-man (fast, repeatedly, one-shot, super-slow to hear the arc'ing inside the switch, etc).

I don't know how these single-CatX adapters work (yet, tee hee hee), but if this unit is any indication of the single- vs dual-catX technology, then I'd recommend folks start looking into the single-CatX solutions. Until I saw beemer533's post above about a single-CatX extender for $95, I wasn't sure of any single-CatX extenders out there that hit the same price-point as the (lower-cost) dual-CatX extenders. I would very much be interested in trying out the $95 PI single-CatX extender but at this point I have a solution and I'd just as soon leave it well-enough-alone!

I am now using one of these:
XTENDEX® ST-C5HDMI-150

It is truly "plug and play." --- But to be fair, the Arkview extender was truly "plug and play" as well, but just had this debilitating vulnerability to AC motor on/off cycling --- This unit however (so far!) does not seem to have the same vulnerability, and I also like that I can plug in the AC wall adapter for the pair at the source end rather than forced to plug in power at the destination end (the Arkview extender). All that's now plugged into the power strip at the far end now is the TV, and I'd rather keep it that way...



Good luck to EVERYONE else experiencing this problem. With as many views as this thread has received to-date, it is clear there is a problem out there that is not yet well enough understood to fix it once-and-for-all.


cheers,
..dane

+1 what Colm said ... Different units handle different bitrates. 1080p60@24bit is so much bandwidth. 1080p60@36bit is (much) more. 1080p60@36bit3D is going to be even double that.

For grins I switched the DVDO Edge to 36bit color (Edge supports 24bit, 30bit, and 36bit), which the Arkview extender (that I was using) couldn't handle at ALL.. The new NTI one works perfectly. I've left it in 36bit color mode not because I can tell any difference but because I want to preset the absolute worse-case-scenario to the extender to see how well it's holding up. If it glitches occasionally at 36bit and none at 30bit, then I can leave it at 24bit and never have a cause for worry.. However, as it stands now, it's been running for a week at 36bit and has not yet glitched once! So I'm pretty excited about that. And it's running on Cat5e (not even UTP-Cat6, much less STP-Cat7)!

Anyway, you can call NTI (or whomever's adapter you end up looking into) and ask them if their unit(s) support 1080p60@36bit3D rates or not... They'll be able to tell you best...

Good luck!


You have no idea how glad I am to have this problem solved. I'm keeping my fingers crossed but every day that goes by without my wife or me noticing any glitches allows me to forget about this whole saga a little bit more.

cheers,
..dane

I think the pair was around $350? Follow the link above... good luck!