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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 385

post #11521 of 21934
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

you aren't "expected to/supposed to" watch movies at 0db... very few do, as "reference" is VERY loud in the home environment...

It's deafening in the theaters, too. The last time I watched an action movie in a real theater (The movie was "8mm"), I kept putting my fingers in my ears to save my hearing.
post #11522 of 21934
^^^

true dat. i'm trying to remember the last action movie we saw at the movies, but i remember it was WAY too loud... and we aren't exactly tentative with the volume knob at home...
post #11523 of 21934
Thanks everyone for the replies They're all greatly appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Hi. Not sure if DRC is applied or not but it has been reported that on high-level model Denons it does not. Here is an interesting discussion
the topic you may already be aware of.

This must of been where I became aware of this issue though I'd long since forgotten the details. Having a browse through the thread it looks like only Dolby Digital tracks can cause an issue if listening through a system with less than 5.1 speakers. In that case it depends on how the disc was mastered and presumedly some will not have DRC.

Quote:


Unsolicited opinion: I think of "phantom center" as exactly the same phenomena as stereo, where a phantom image is created by equal level content from FR/L. For most speakers and rooms, the phantom effect is only experienced by one listener seated exactly in a very small "sweet spot". So basically there is no substitute for a real CC timbre-matched to FR/L for MC music and especially for film as it greatly broadens the sweet spot, making dialog far better for all seating positions, and allows for individual trim of CC content.

Three matching speakers up front would be the ideal for sure but due to space constraints I can't fit in a center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Yes to number 1 and on a lot of AVR's you get DRC dynamic range compression) with DD, but not all of them. If interested in the 4311, give me a call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

actually #1 is NO. if CC is set to "none" then it will not appear in the channel level menus.

Ahh, I see. Thanks.
post #11524 of 21934
^Phantom imaging is amazingly convincing from MLP in my setup. Proper speaker placement, with the precision of Audyssey XT32, plus Pro, plus the ventriloquism effect adds up to something quite uncanny. Folks are compelled to put their ear up to the CC to be sure it's not on when I play them well-recorded 2 ch source music in Stereo. Same goes for the DSX wide speakers, as the sound stage is so wide and the wides are right at the first reflection point. Especially with well-recorded 5.1 ch music, in 5.1, you'd swear the wides are on when the mixer places instruments over there. Fortunately I'm only about 9' from the Denon so I can read the FPD which shows me those speakers are not engaged or I'd be getting up to check too!

That said, I've never tried setting CC to none to see how MC (films, SACD, etc) would sound without the CC. Problem is, I'd have to rerun Audyssey for a fair comparison. I do have to contend with less than ideal CC placement but I'm glad I've assembled the whole Helicon speaker array.
LL
post #11525 of 21934
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgoins View Post

Is there a way to have zone2/zone3 always ON when you turn on the main zone? With my older Denon's they would remain ON at startup until you turned them off. With this one regardless of if they were on prior to turning off the receiver, once you turn the receiver off and turn it back on zone2/zone3 are set to OFF. I want to control one of the zones using a wall volume control without having to click the zone on every time. Seems simple but I swear i cant figure out how to do it.

I have my 4311 set up to turn Zone 2 on and off with the Main zone, but I'm not quite sure how I did that. Possibly, it was by using the "Switching the multi-zone input source to the same input as the Main Zone" described in the manual on page 118.
post #11526 of 21934
I'm looking at sub $2000 AVR's for a friends HT build.
Thread here -- LINK

Denon
- 4311CI - $2100 MSRP, $2000 AVS store - AVS Forum
- 3312 (NEW 2011) - $1100 MSRP
- 4311/3312 comparison - link

Marantz
- SR7005 - link - $1700 MSRP - AVS Forum

Any reason to pick the 3312CI over the 4311CI.
It's cheaper, but price difference isn't a major driver.

Thoughts?

Mike
post #11527 of 21934
Mike....I've been sliding different AVRs in and out of my HT for the last month (Best Buy/Magnolia isn't real pleased with me for the volume of returns).

I have a Pioneer Elite SC27 in my rack for comparison's sake.

I really like Marantz gear, too. I tried an SR7005. Very nice AVR, plenty of power, sounded great.

However, if I make a change, I'd probably lean towards the Denon 4311 for Audyssey XT32 room/speaker set up. It does a very nice job, especially with subwoofer set up. Network firmware downloading is pretty easy, too.

Best of luck!
post #11528 of 21934
Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post

Mike....I've been sliding different AVRs in and out of my HT for the last month (Best Buy/Magnolia isn't real pleased with me for the volume of returns).

I have a Pioneer Elite SC27 in my rack for comparison's sake.

I really like Marantz gear, too. I tried an SR7005. Very nice AVR, plenty of power, sounded great.

However, if I make a change, I'd probably lean towards the Denon 4311 for Audyssey XT32 room/speaker set up. It does a very nice job, especially with subwoofer set up. Network firmware downloading is pretty easy, too.

Best of luck!

Thanks!

I bought a Marantz SR7005 for another friend/neighbors HT build.
I know many people really like the SR7005 "port hole" look.
I have a Denon 5308CI, so I'm used to that interface (not that it is the best!) for Audyssey, etc.
I am intrigued to use the XT32 + SubEQ options to optimize sound.

Quote:


Easy Setup With Automatic Room Acoustic Correction
Audyssey's advanced MultEQ XT32 room acoustic correction system features a microphone (included) to automatically measure the speaker configuration and provide acoustic tailoring for the best surround sound experience, and provides quick and easy setup.
The new Sub EQ HT processor provides subwoofer tuning, and can even provide separate processing for each of two connected subwoofers.

Mike
post #11529 of 21934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

I'm looking at sub $2000 AVR's for a friends HT build...Any reason to pick the 3312CI over the 4311CI...price difference isn't a major driver

Hi. Is there some gotta-have-it feature on a 3312 that the 4311 doesn't have? For me, it's the other way round. XT32 and Pro calibration capable were must-haves for me. For others it might also be that it's the ONLY XT32 full 11.2 AVR out there, period (needs 2 ext amps for this though). IMO the 4311 remains the best value in top tier AVRs.

For happy hunting, see post below
post #11530 of 21934
I see AVS reminding folks to call for a price on the 4311 so they must have a few in stock. They have often been avail AFAIK for a very nice 20-25% off (so around 1.5 K) from authorized dealers (AVS, ABT, 6thAv, J&R, Electronics Expo, Vanns, etc), but you must contact them directly for the best price.
post #11531 of 21934
@mike...

if the extra dollars "don't matter", i'd be inclined to pop for the 4311, especially if the possibility for dual subs exists...

i had an av7005 that i absolutely loved... great unit, does everything it is advertised to do, no quirks and roxk solid out of the box...

but my a100 is a superior unit... ime/imo, xt32 is worth the coin...

there's also a few more features on the 4311...

and of course, it has an amplification section... which ime, has proven to be rather robust...
post #11532 of 21934
I need to upgrade my AVR as part of a home reno. I am trying to find out if the Denon 4311 (or similar Marantz) can let me assign the amps the way I want for three zones.

Ideally, I'd like to use 7.1 in my HT room, but connect a pair of stereo analog speakers in both zone 2 and zone 3 without any additional external amps.

When I used the HT theater and watched a movie in 7.1, the speakers in zones 2 and 3 would not be in use.

Is this possible? Can I assign the amps thru the remote to reconfigure my setup as needed? Or do I need to a buy an external 2-channel amp? I am trying to find an AVR around $2000 or so with this capability.
post #11533 of 21934
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbar View Post

I need to upgrade my AVR as part of a home reno. I am trying to find out if the Denon 4311 (or similar Marantz) can let me assign the amps the way I want for three zones.

Ideally, I'd like to use 7.1 in my HT room, but connect a pair of stereo analog speakers in both zone 2 and zone 3 without any additional external amps.

When I used the HT theater and watched a movie in 7.1, the speakers in zones 2 and 3 would not be in use.

Is this possible? Can I assign the amps thru the remote to reconfigure my setup as needed? Or do I need to a buy an external 2-channel amp? I am trying to find an AVR around $2000 or so with this capability.

There aren't any AVR's currently produced that will do what you want, regardless of price.
post #11534 of 21934
There are only distinct 9 amps for 9 speakers on the 4311ci, if you want to hook up zone2 and zone3 without using additional amps, your main area would need to be 5.1/2. One of the two zones would need an external amp, if you're trying to do all this without having to plug/unplug speaker cables in the back (there are no additional speaker hookups to wire although that would be a nice feature in a receiver if it would be easy to implement by manufacturers).

Good luck
post #11535 of 21934
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse99 View Post

There are only distinct 9 amps for 9 speakers on the 4311ci, if you want to hook up zone2 and zone3 without using additional amps, your main area would need to be 5.1/2. One of the two zones would need an external amp, if you're trying to do all this without having to plug/unplug speaker cables in the back (there are no additional speaker hookups to wire although that would be a nice feature in a receiver if it would be easy to implement by manufacturers).

Good luck

And while he could accomplish this by manually connecting the speakers, every time you change the speaker configuration on the AVR, you will have to re-run Audyssey...

For his $2,000 budget, he should be able to find the 4311 and an amp that will suit his need.
post #11536 of 21934
Good point, FilmMixer! jeffbar - you could potentially use your existing AV/AVR for that additional 2 channel amp in one of the zones, until you get something else
post #11537 of 21934
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Hi. Is there some gotta-have-it feature on a 3312 that the 4311 doesn't have? For me, it's the other way round. XT32 and Pro calibration capable were must-haves for me. For others it might also be that it's the ONLY XT32 full 11.2 AVR out there, period (needs 2 ext amps for this though). IMO the 4311 remains the best value in top tier AVRs.

For happy hunting, see post below

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

I see AVS reminding folks to call for a price on the 4311 so they must have a few in stock. They have often been avail AFAIK for a very nice 20-25% off (so around 1.5 K) from authorized dealers (AVS, ABT, 6thAv, J&R, Electronics Expo, etc), but you must contact them directly for the best price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

@mike...

if the extra dollars "don't matter", i'd be inclined to pop for the 4311, especially if the possibility for dual subs exists...

i had an av7005 that i absolutely loved... great unit, does everything it is advertised to do, no quirks and roxk solid out of the box...

but my a100 is a superior unit... ime/imo, xt32 is worth the coin...

there's also a few more features on the 4311...

and of course, it has an amplification section... which ime, has proven to be rather robust...

Thanks.
I will suggest he call for direct quotes on Mon and go with the RS25 and 4311CI.
The 3312CI does seem to be a nice value with many (not all) of the features of the 4311.
Likely better to just go with the 4311.

Mike
post #11538 of 21934
Is the AVR-A100 still available as new production?? When it dropped of my radar a earlier this year, I though it was either due to end of limited run or due to the disaster in Japan.

This month though HomeTheaterMag did a review of the matching BluRay unit...which made me wonder if the AVR-A100 was still out there.
post #11539 of 21934
Thanks FM and Anon. Dissapointing but not surprising.

I have a denon 3310 that appears capable of 3 zones but it only has 7 amps and the net function appears broken. Figured I would upgrade to a new 9 channel avr.

I could use the 3310 but I think that would require adding 4 external amps to achieve my goal.

Maybe I can buy a second 9.1 avr and have each receiver cover one additional zone. More wiring runs and controls but easily doable.
post #11540 of 21934
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbar View Post

...I could use the 3310 but I think that would require adding 4 external amps to achieve my goal. Maybe I can buy a second 9.1 avr and have each receiver cover one additional zone. More wiring runs and controls but easily doable.

Network issue aside, I'd ask batpig or jdsmoothie to help you sort this out. Post more specifics about what material you want to pipe to the zones (source, and whether it's connected analog or digital) the ohms & how many speakers are in each zone, if the two zones are always playing the same thing (and if so, if the two zones need separate volume control). This will determine the wiring and equipment options (like a speaker impedence match/vol control). As FM mentioned, it's quite possible an inexpensive used integrated amp or receiver will expand your 3310 (or a 4311) to give you the flexibilty you want.
post #11541 of 21934
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk1843 View Post

Is the AVR-A100 still available as new production?? ..This month though HomeTheaterMag did a review of the matching BluRay unit...which made me wonder if the AVR-A100 was still out there.

I assume you're not shopping, but just curious? AFAIK it's indeed a limted edition so there's really not many to be had anymore. So mine must be worth more every day, not less. On the other hand, there's really little to recommend it over the 4311 for most folks, and the 4311 is readily available discounted and is a top value, as I mentioned above.

Here's the one my search turned up: new @ 2.3K shipped, sold by "though" (?!) on ebay.
post #11542 of 21934
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Post more specifics about what material you want to pipe to the zones (source, and whether it's connected analog or digital) the ohms & how many speakers are in each zone, if the two zones are always playing the same thing (and if so, if the two zones need separate volume control). This will determine the wiring and equipment options (like a speaker impedence match/vol control). As FM mentioned, it's quite possible an inexpensive used integrated amp or receiver will expand your 3310 (or a 4311) to give you the flexibilty you want.

My aim is plain vanilla, SoM. I just want stereo music in my new kitchen and on my new outdoor deck after the addition is completed. Preferably powered and/or controlled by one receiver and one remote (I now have a Harmony One).

The speakers on the deck are likely to be outdoor Def Techs or something similar in the $500-$600 per pair range. I would use the deck speakers 30-40 times a year, at most.

The kitchen speakers will be inwalls that are similarly priced. I would use them everyday when getting dinner ready.

All three zones will never be on at the same time unless i have a big party. The kitchen and great room speakers might be on together occasionally. Most of the time I would be using only one zone.

The new great room/home theater, for its part, will do everything HTs do. My current speakers, however, are too big to get WAF (floor-standing Dahlquists and a circular SVS sub).

As such I will buy inwall or onwall speakers (8 ohm likely) and install them during construction. I am figuring $500 to $800 per each front three speakers, less for the back surrounds. Plus a good midlevel sub.

There is a remote chance I would buy slim floorstanders (Mythos), possibly with built-in amps (Def Tech BP).

I mainly listen to music stored on my PC hardrive (lossless flac) or via Internet radio services such as Rhapsody and Pandora. I have a wireless Squeezebox Duet system, with a wifi box connnected to my avr. I'll uprade to Sonos at some point, perhaps as part of the reno.

The Squeezebox receiver is now connected to my avr via digital audio and it works fine in the main zone.

Would I have to switch to RCA plugs instead so I can listen in zones 2 and 3?
post #11543 of 21934
You obviously cannot achieve what you want with your existing receiver - there is no magic. In my earlier post, I meant get a new AVR and use the existing one as a power amp for zone3. With a 4311ci, if you're willing to do 5.1, then you may be able to do a 2-channel zone 2 and 2-channel zone3 (read the 4311ci manual, mine is on order so I'll be a 100% sure once I have mine - I've paid nowhere close to list for the 4311ci but I need to receive the unit first ). Good luck.
post #11544 of 21934
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbar View Post

I could use the 3310 but I think that would require adding 4 external amps to achieve my goal.

Correct. Although you can buy 2CH amps for $100 or less and accomplish your goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbar View Post

Would I have to switch to RCA plugs instead so I can listen in zones 2 and 3?

If you're keeping the 3310CI you could use that to power Zone 2 and use the 4311CI for your 7.1 in the main zone and Zone 3, otherwise add a 2CH amp and you're good to go. Only analog sources or PCM 2.0 (via optical/coax, not HDMI) will go to Zones 2/3 regardless of whether using an external amp or the AVR's amps.
post #11545 of 21934
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbar View Post


My aim is plain vanilla, SoM. I just want stereo music in my new kitchen and on my new outdoor deck after the addition is completed. Preferably powered and/or controlled by one receiver and one remote (I now have a Harmony One).

The speakers on the deck are likely to be outdoor Def Techs or something similar in the $500-$600 per pair range. I would use the deck speakers 30-40 times a year, at most.

The kitchen speakers will be inwalls that are similarly priced. I would use them everyday when getting dinner ready.

All three zones will never be on at the same time unless i have a big party. The kitchen and great room speakers might be on together occasionally. Most of the time I would be using only one zone.

The new great room/home theater, for its part, will do everything HTs do. My current speakers, however, are too big to get WAF (floor-standing Dahlquists and a circular SVS sub).

As such I will buy inwall or onwall speakers (8 ohm likely) and install them during construction. I am figuring $500 to $800 per each front three speakers, less for the back surrounds. Plus a good midlevel sub.

There is a remote chance I would buy slim floorstanders (Mythos), possibly with built-in amps (Def Tech BP).

I mainly listen to music stored on my PC hardrive (lossless flac) or via Internet radio services such as Rhapsody and Pandora. I have a wireless Squeezebox Duet system, with a wifi box connnected to my avr. I'll uprade to Sonos at some point, perhaps as part of the reno.

The Squeezebox receiver is now connected to my avr via digital audio and it works fine in the main zone.

Would I have to switch to RCA plugs instead so I can listen in zones 2 and 3?

What you want to do really is in the realm of a Sonos system. If you are only going to use the backyard 30 to 40 times a year and the kitchen is, well... A kitchen. I would steer you to a good 7.1 AVR such as the 3311. Then spend all your money on the Sonos system. I have both the 4311 and Sonos. There is no comparison, not now, not in the future, not ever. The Sonos interface is lightyears ahead. The little powered portables will rival equipment much more costly than themselves.

IMHO getting the 4311 or pretty much any AVR to do great distributed audio is a project full of futility if you can't get friends, wife, kids on board. Sonos does that for us.
post #11546 of 21934
I am under no illusions, Anon. Hifi electronics are very easy these days in some ways, but very hard in others, especially given the apparent difficulty in marrying the technology to the worlds of computers and the Internet.

My Denon 3310 manual doesn't help matters, as usual. The 3310 is listed as being able to handle three zones. Yet the manual shows both zone 2 and zone 3 being connected to the same two amp connections, listed as the SURR BACK/AMP ASSIGN.

Now either these two amps can handle two zones at the same time; or, I have to pick one zone or the other (why have zone 3 then?); or I really need an external amp for zone 3 but the Denon manual fails to tell me that.

To further confuse matters, the manual also suggests that I can switch the amp connectors labeled SURR BACK/AMP ASSIGN to either NORMAL, thereby enabling the back surrounds, or ZONE 2 (or 3), enabling a different zone.

If it could actually do that I'd be very happy. I could just add an external amp and be done with it.

One other thought occurred to me. Wonder if I could connect the zone 3 speakers outside my deck to the FRONT B connectors.

When I listen outside, I'd quick switch to the FRONT B speakers, thereby disconnecting the FRONT A speakers (which wouldn't be in use anyway).

Might that work with a 9.2 AVR?

First I have to decide is if I really want/need 7.1 or 7.2. I am pretty happy with 5.1 right now. I havent really heard any of the new configurations and have to do more research or listen first hand.

If I get a 9.2 AVR, I might just stick with 5.1 in my new great room and used the extra four amps for zones 2 and 3.
post #11547 of 21934
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

I assume you're not shopping, but just curious? AFAIK it's indeed a limted edition so there's really not many to be had anymore. So mine must be worth more every day, not less. On the other hand, there's really little to recommend it over the 4311 for most folks, and the 4311 is readily available discounted and is a top value, as I mentioned above.

Here's the one my search turned up: new @ 2.3K shipped, sold by "though" (?!) on ebay.

there is an A100 for a nice price in the Vanns clearance section, missing the original box but since Vann's is authorized you get full 5-yr warranty.
post #11548 of 21934
Hi jeffbar:

Your 3310 can support video with stereo audio in zone2 either as a pre-out or speaker cable with video signal. zone3 is supported only as audio.

Your surround back is assignable - so you could use speaker cables for zone2, and either run like a/v rca cables or speaker wire to zone3. If you run a speaker cable, you'll have to collocate your zone3 amp with the 3310.

See these attachments from your 3310 manual.

Bottom line - assuming your main zone is 5.1, you should be able to do what you want relatively inexpensively with a cheap 2 channel amp. So run speaker wires for zone2, and amplify zone3 either next to your 3310 (preferable!) or at the destination (i.e. kitchen, porch).

Good luck
LL
LL
post #11549 of 21934
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

I would steer you to a good 7.1 AVR such as the 3311. Then spend all your money on the Sonos system. I have both the 4311 and Sonos. There is no comparison, not now, not in the future, not ever. The Sonos interface is lightyears ahead. The little powered portables will rival equipment much more costly than themselves.

IMHO getting the 4311 or pretty much any AVR to do great distributed audio is a project full of futility if you can't get friends, wife, kids on board. Sonos does that for us.

I agree about Sonos and distributed audio, SeattleGuy. Several of my friends have Sonos and even my cheaper Squeezebox system does a fine job.

I just figured I'd use the extra amps in my current or next AVR and then take advantage of the new construction to run wire from the greatroom to the speakers slated for the kitchen and deck.

My AVR would be hardwired to the nearby Internet router instead of connecting wirelessly. Just can't beat a 100% hardwire connection from the Internet to the speakers.

What would you think of the idea of using a Sonos 120 to connect to my AVR? It would link my AVR to my Sonos network and provide extra amps for my outdoor speakers.

Does it even have the appropriate connectors? (I cannot tell from the website photos).
post #11550 of 21934
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse99 View Post

Your surround back is assignable - so you could use speaker cables for zone2, and either run like a/v rca cables or speaker wire to zone3. If you run a speaker cable, you'll have to collocate your zone3 amp with the 3310.

Thanks very much for your help, anon. I am a little rusty with my AVR thinking, however.

From what I have learned, I have two options.


1)Buy a new 9.1 AVR. Use 7 amps for the HT, use 2 amps for zone 2 and buy a 2-channel amp (say Onkyo M-282) for zone 3. Connect Onkyo amp to the 3310.

2)Keep my 7.1 Denon 3310CI. Stick with 5.1 for the HT, use the back surround amps for zone 2 and add the aforementioned Onkyo amp for zone 3.

What confuses me is this. If I keep the 3310, can I use the assignable amps to feed audio in both zones 2 and 3 (without ever having to touch the wiring again).

I would assume I'd "colocate" the speaker wire from zones 2 and 3 much like I now biamp my front speakers using dual banana plugs? Is that correct?

What I still havent figured out is whether I can dual stack the speaker cable from the rear surrounds AND zone 2, using the GUI to switch between the two as needed.

If I could do that, I could get 7.1 HT with the Denon 3310, power zone 2 when necessary, and get an external amp to handle zone 3. Is this path, call it OPTION 3, possible.

I am almost there ...
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