The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 467

I'm referring to the "screensaver" found on page 104 of the manual. I believe the "picture" that can be displayed is the wordmark DENON. If you're seeing that then it's not a handshake issue since the screen saver has specific rules for when it's invoked and they're not related to HDMI handshake.

Most people have never heard anything close to reference bass in their house. For those interested in high SQ, cleaning up room modes/bass bloat/ringing has significant audible benefits, not just for tight, punchy bass but unmasks things over the entire frequency spectrum yielding clarity imaging, and improved soundstage/surroiund bubble.

As to doing demos, I've given up on doing that at dealer showrooms because they don't run Audyssey/MCACC. Besides, with DSP RC the best place to do comparisons is in your room.

Okay, I'll check out pg. 104 and see what those rules are. Thanks for the "heads up".

I may have missed if you commented on this but have you tried connecting the cable box to a different input on the 4311? Also, try connecting another source (like the oppo) to the input that the cable box is currently connected to and see if the problem can be duplicated.
If not an hdmi handshake (or some other) issue, one of the hdmi inputs on the 4311 may have a problem.

Okay. I'll check that out too. Thanks.

UPDATE - Is Denon a cool company or what? I called customer support, went thorugh a simple menu, the phone rings twice and a fellow named Joe picks up in Texas. Tell him my situation, he replies that it's happned to others, sounds like a handshake issue, might be the HDMI port but probably not. Since I'm at work he's sending written instructions for trouble shooting. Which by the way, are along the lines of what you kind folks have already suggested. Kudos to you.

I'll check things out when I get home tonight.

Easy dude. I'm not trying to start a pissing contest here. The guy asked for opinions between Pioneer (MCACC) and Denon (Xt32) and I provided my perspective. Nothing more, nothing less.

Your opinion is that xt32 is far superior to mcacc. I'm not arguing that, however, I could counter that I bet the difference in the average humans ear, with background noise of kids, dogs, etc... would diminish the differences and not warrant spending >3x the $.

Then again, you know the saying about opinions... :-)

It's all good bro! To each his own! :-)

For the record in case anybody else suffers from signal loss through HDMI, here are troubleshooting instructions from Denon -

1. Power ON all equipment.
2. While equipment is powered on, disconnect ALL HDMI cables. Both ends of ALL HDMI Cables. Emphasis on ALL.
3. Turn off all equipment.
4. Unplug separately each device from the power. You cannot use a multi power strips main power reset button. Devices must be powered up one at a time in later steps.
5. Wait Thirty Minutes.
6. Reconnect all HDMI cables.

THESE next few steps are important. You will have to do these one at a time. MUST be done in THis order.

7. FIRST. Plug in, power on, and verify input on the TELEVISION SET.
8. Next, Plug and power on receiver.
9. Select source on the receiver of the device you plan on powering up next. (I.E. DVD, BP, SAT/CBL)
10. Plug and power on selected device. Wait 30 Secs.
11. Power off device normally.

12. Repeat steps 9-11)

This completes a HDCP communications reset.

I come from an analog background so this HDMI stuff is definitely different for me. Every piece of equipment talks back and forth (at some level) to each other. Ultimately, this makes troubleshooting these issues much harder.

you would lose that bet... and only a brave man makes a bet when he only knows one side of the story...

mcacc and audyssey xt32 produce rather similar results in the mid to high frequencies (at least those high frequencies i can still hear)... however, under 200hz, the difference starts becoming noticeable... and when you get to the xover region and subwoofer, the difference is not insignificant...

i have several years of experience with high end pioneer equipment (and was an unrepentant fanboy for a LONG time)... a goodly amount of the time, i also used an external eq for the sub...

not trying to be difficult here, but blithely tossing sub eq to the side, simply because you haven't heard/felt a properly eq'd sub (and the first octave or so that the mains are getting) is, ummm, not prudent... treading gently here... your comment of "diminishing differences because of external noises" indicates that you might not quite understand how the frequencies under 200hz "work" in a room...

as noted in my first post... the area where people need eq the most is where the 4311 has the best in the business, and where the pio has none... and in the area they need it the second most, the pio pales in comparison...

if the funds are available to the purchaser, and the purchaser has already done the right thing and properly kitted themselves with speakers/subs*, the 4311 is EASILY "worth" 3 times the other avr in question... EASILY.... for the going street price, it may be the best bargain in the a/v world in quite some time...

your mileage will not vary...

* scroll back a few pages for an extensive discussion on this topic...

It's on the box if you still have it.

Go to Denon's web site. The link to upgrade is at the bottom of the page I believe. Free to all now!

Is your problem resolved?

Not yet. Still have to go home to test it.

Chris,
Just for that, and Holyindian quoting me verbatim , I'm crashing this thread from Pioneerland (SC-57 thread to be exact, where you're the Dark Side/devil's advocate). I won't argue that head to head, the XT32 is superior to Pioneer MCACC. If I didn't think so I would have spent more than $500 on an AS-EQ1 that _does_ have Audyssey's Sub HT. And to ignore room correction below 63 Hz (hell, 80 to 100 Hz IMO because I don't want MCACC doing what Sub HT does better) is done at the users peril, or blissful ignorance. I'm convinced enough of that, even if 'more is better' bassheads and certain Pioneer 'a single cook in the kitchen' types aren't.

But where do you get off saying that an AVR XT32 is worth 3x more than MCACC (or YMAO) if you can pick up a sub EQ solution? For the price of an SC-57+AS-EQ1/Antimode/SMS-1, it's a few hundred more than the 4311, and for _that_ price, there's the ability to customize the final result with MCACC, use the Marvel QDEO upscaling chip (which IMHO makes a difference for Internet streaming, and beats hands-down the upscaling of SD on our Panny G15 or Tivo Series 3), and have physically cooler (and some would argue better sounding) amps than the Class AB on the Denon. And maybe it's placebo effect, but I enjoy switching between the 'warm' and 'sharp' DAC filters.

Other than the sheer weight of your argument (speaking literally since I think the Denon's heavier), if you already have a bass EQ solution, why should I or someone else give up a Pioneer/Yamaha/non-Audyssey AVR or separates if we have bass EQ? Other than joining the community with a lot more - and honestly, more rational - posts to it, that is.

Stuart

^^^

howdy... welcome to the dark side, young skywalker...

a bit more to come later, but a quick correction...

i didn't say xt32 was worth 3x the price of mcacc... the op brought up the 3x the price, when comparing the avr he bought vs. the 4311... looking back on my post, i see now how someone could misinterpret what i was saying...

replacing that avr with the sc-57 + as-eq levels the playing field considerably... i in no way would suggest that the 4311 was worth 3x the price of a sc-57 + as-eq... that would be just silly...

I have this sudden desire to start cackling and recruit an apprentice. But other than that....I thought that was what you literally implied. Illuminate us younglings that are thinking about the 2013 Denon AVR line....or closeout sales....l

FYI - I moved the surrounds down off near the top of the walls. Amazing difference and it cost $0.00. Thanks for the advice!

I love the URC remotes, I have 2 MX-980's and 1 MX-800 along with a MRF-200.

Love my Harmony 550...best? Naw...But is perfect for my family. So much so we have 3 of the 550 remotes for the 3 systems in the house.

While we're on the subject of remotes, what are people currently doing to get the various discrete codes for the 4311 into their Harmony? I contacted Harmony about copying batpig's device over to mine, but since my remote is over 90 days old, they want me to pay for "premium" support before they'll discuss it with me. I've seen many people here post that they tried to get this done, but only got some of the commands. I don't want to pay them only to be told "oh yeah, we can't do that". What has everyone's luck been recently in getting this done?

I'm beginning to think that if I want this done, I'm better off buying a remote that can handle hex codes, then using that to learn into the Harmony.

I'm more than happy to let this die. I wasn't the one that asked for advice. I've made my purchase and am thrilled with it. I have no skin in the game at all.

With that said, I do want to ask your opinion on one point though with regard to 3x the cost of the 1121 (elite 53) vs the 4311. Assuming a person doesn't have unlimited funds to buy anything (I'm going out on a limb here and assuming that you don't drive a Ferrari or Rolls Royce or whatever car costs 3x the cost of the car you drive), wouldn't it be a worthwhile piece of research to conduct - to consider spending 3x more on a receiver and keeping your current speakers, or saving $1000+ and investing in better speakers?

I fully realize the original poster was asking for opinions on a receiver and not speakers. All I'm trying to suggest is a mid range receiver and upgraded speakers MAY sound better than a top shelf receiver and lower end speakers. Mayne yes, maybe no. I merely throw it out as a provocation to consider if you don't have incredible speakers to begin with or unlimited discretionary income at your disposal.

Now, that's what i would call a genuine debate. You have brought some very valuable points here on this thread. It's easy to be a fanboy for a certain product, but to support the likeness for that product with geuine claims is what matters.. these are some of the reasons i am researching around for a good receiver. Or maybe i am laying too much emphasis over nitty-gritty matters. I had done considerable amount of research while shopping for my Speakers and Subs, and i dont regret my decision getting them at all. But here is the thing, an AVR can make or break your system. The Denon 4311ci and the SC-57 are both capable subs in their own realms, and both are of the same price range.

Just that the devices such as AS-EQ1/AntiMode/SMS-1 are an add-on overheads. I am not sure even if they are worth adding to your HT gear thus complicating things more, if your AVR's XT32 can do the same job. I have a THT subwoofer, and i know sub eq'ing is very important to me... Now cos my speakers are also high-end, i do know that MCACC does wonderful calibration for the speakers if i go with pio, but the non-availability of the XT32 hinders Sub calibration, which denon offers with their recievers.. the more i read the more paranoia rises within..

There is about a 2-3 page discussion of this very idea beginning about 5 pages back...(tried to post the link to the post, but too ignorant).

yes! it's been my experience over 30 yrs in audio that speakers speakers speakers make a huge difference. and $$ spent is not always a good indicator either....

The difference between some Acoustic Research towers I bought in the early 80's that cost $1500 back then vs. baby Magnepan that cost me $500 was night & day. The AR's were harsh to the point of painful, flat, non-dimensional, non-depth, no imaging, worst speakers I ever owned, even over $75 EPI bookshelves I bought when I got out of college. The Maggies were like opening a window into the sound. It was true then & still true now.

Same electronics with different - better speakers, can make a huge difference in your audio enjoyment. I am a FIRM believer

I once had the pleasure of demo-ing some truly hi-end gear, big pwr monoblocks, tube preamp, ext Meitner DAC, Wadia CD transport, and $4000 speakers in 1993 dollars. Those same speakers, Soundlab e-stats, cost $18000 now. The shop had me compare the SL's to another speaker, Acarians, both cost the same $, both were excellent, but the SL's imaging, soundstage & depth was superior in every way. I didn't buy the system, too Rich For My Wallet, but no question in my mind which speakers I wanted to take home. As much as I love my late model Maggies for imaging & depth, I still lust after those Soundlabs; their sound was spooky real. I've heard nothing that quite compares, not even Martin Logan e-stats. Cost is an indicator but not the only one. No 2 speakers have the identical same sonic signature...of that I am convinced.

Ideally, speakers should be the first thing one decides on after listening comparisons... then shop for suitable electronics & amp pwr to drive them. Most folks, tho, do it 180 backwards and speakers get what's left in the budget, if the buyer even listens to them at all. The CE companies hope you'll be mesmorized by doodads like height channels, i-control and buy their product first. They could care less if you mate their AVR with crap speakers. hey, we're all guilty of doing this & none of us are immune to the siren song of new features, incl me

my 2c fwiw

I'll go back to a pioneer thread now but your post hit one of my hot buttons!

Exactly my point. Just because the 4311 has xt32, does not mean that that is the "be-all, end-all" decision point. There are many things to consider in order to make an informed decision and to prevent buyers remorse.

I rest my case. :-)

Because I feel genuine alarm at the prospect of work, I decided an easier path would be to swap out all of my cables for high speed 1.4 2160p, 4k resolution cables first. The problem seems to be resolved.

I didn't know I was helping to "make a case"
all I was saying is speaker choice is very important, maybe most important & ccotenj would agree with this

fwiw - I happen to agree with chris and others that Pioneer is falling behind, and the 4311 probably does have the best room correction system in affordable gear. I've heard a Trinnov system demo and it blew me away (I hate to use that phrase but in this case, it applied). But ADA Trinnov costs $15000 & that's just for the room EQ box, not the whole processor. It's all relative. There's no doubt in my mind that the room EQ system in the Denon 4311 is the most advanced in an AVR. and I'm a long-term Pioneer owner. MCACC is still very good, but it's getting long in the tooth and Pioneer & Yamaha have not made any advances in years while Audyseey is constantly improving theirs.

"rest my case"

Welcome Stuart. I'll add my $.02 into this discussion, if you don't mind. I'd never heard of combining MCACC and AS EQ1, etc., but it's an interesting idea and I'm assuming works pretty well for you. I have heard of combining AS EQ1's extra bass EQ capability with MultEQXT. Turns out that based on reports I consider reliable by a fellow AVSer who upgraded his Onkyo pre/pro, XT32 is better than that latter combo (but not by a huge margin). It'd probably beat out your current combo too. Here's some of the why.

1. XT32 is more powerful than XT, and even more powerful than AS EQ1 this post if this matters to you> , in the bass channel in # of correction points available. Thus it deals with room mode problems in the sub channel more effectively, which in most rooms results in an audible improvement with tighter smoother bass. Also note that better bass has a beneficial effect on SQ throughout the whole spectrum, with improved clarity, imaging, surround bubble and integration of subs to sats.

2. In the same way, XT32 is more powerful than XT in the sat channels, as it brings equal power there as it does to the sub channel. This is important, as there are many room mode problems above the crossover and below the Schroeder Freq., which must be handled in the sat channels.

3. Through a breakthrough in processing strategy, XT32 uses smarter fuzzy logic to identify problems and is more effective in allocating the filter points, focusing its power where most needed (in those freqs below the Schroeder Freq in the sat channels, for ex.).

So rather than a combination of gear, one can get the 4311. And since we have hundreds left over in the budget, one can consider acoustic treatments, speaker upgrades or an Audyssey Pro kit (which adds customizable EQ, BTW) to kick SQ up another notch.

The power of XT32 is great. The 4311 is an awesome value. Resistance is futile.

I'm just doing this myself, having bought AustinJerry's used EQ1. Seems to work out well. It's given the flattest response curve I've ever seen using the mic & measurement display from the Velodyne EQ'er built-in to the Velo sub I have. Better than anything I was able to obtain from the Velodyne EQ'er.

I decided to try this out since I'm not ready to ditch Pio...yet

And to your conclusion, if I had to buy a AVR today, considering there are no new $5K flaghips anymore, I'd buy the 4311, period. Not even the new Pio SC-57 entices me. From all that I've read, all the people who've compared systems, I have to accept that audyssey XT32 is the most advanced AVR system now.

One point, tho, you say XT32 is more advanced than the AS-EQ1. I thought the 2 had the same number of filters and resolution, only the EQ1 was obviously just for bass. Is this not true? I believe it has 512 filters & up to 32 measuring positions? Unless you meant using the Pro calibration kit. would appreciate more info on this difference.

As someone coming from a SC-27 AS-EQ1 combo, I have to say the 4311 is an upgrade. I have easy speakers to drive (Def Techs) and not a terribly big room (23x14) so both receivers have plenty of power for me. Where I noticed the difference was bass integration at a 60hz crossover seems much smoother with the Denon in contrast to the 80hz crossover that Pioneer offered. I also feel that the 4311 does a better job transitioning with surround material... with the Pioneer it seemed the timing of some surround effects was a little muddy and with the 4311 it seems more precise and well timed. Again these are all subjective opinions, but I feel the ~100 more I spent on the Denon vs the Pio SVS combo was money well spent in the sound quality area, not even mentioning the other features the Denon offers.