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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 6

post #151 of 23170
As an avid user of zones two and three, the best I can suggest is: grab a Harmony remote (or you can probably set a 2-3 step activity on the master Denon remote) and set up a macro activity to turn it (zone 2) on and select the airtunes input (if it's available to be output in zone 2 which I think it should). And 2, use an amp that "wakes up" upon receiving and "sleeps" (upon not receiving) a signal at the analog inputs.

Not sure of any other way, and I seriously doubt merely using Airtunes in any fashion can do it.

James
post #152 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

Thanks. That's re-assuring. This post in the 3311 thread has me a bit concerned:
Though perhaps I'm misinterpreting that, since he was answering someone with different goals than I.

Yes, I can understand your qualms with that post, but that's very unusual with modern AVRs in my experience. I don't think my D-3310 does that.

I can try when I get home, as I have all 7 channels pre-outted, ATM.

James
post #153 of 23170
that post from JD that you linked is referring to the warning in the Denon manual not to use the speaker posts and pre-outs simultaneously for the same channel. He was understanding the OP's intent as wanting to "bi-amp" the center channel by using an external amp (via pre-out) combined with the internal amp to power a single speaker.

Although he said "can't" I can assure you that he didn't mean that it was physically impossible to do so. Just that you shouldn't
post #154 of 23170
RE: "The pre-outs and matching speaker posts cannot both be used at the same time ... "

Darin, I think that post is correct. It seems that the PRE-OUT channels are only available/live when the internal amps are not being used. If you select PRE AMP, all the PRE OUT Channels are live. If you select 11CH, only the FHL/FHR or FL/FR PRE OUT Channels will be live (depending on the selection you make). The other channels will not be live (from what I can tell in the manual). See this note at the bottom of page 25 (28 of .pdf file):
When external power amplifier have been connected to PRE OUT terminals, do not connect the speakers to the speaker terminals.

Seems to confirm the other post.

Tom
post #155 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

that post from JD that you linked is referring to the warning in the Denon manual not to use the speaker posts and pre-outs simultaneously for the same channel.

Thanks, now I see that note in the 4311 manual (bottom of page 25). I wonder why they say that? Perhaps to prevent any bad signals (like ground loops) from being sent back to the internal amps? I guess if that's the case, that would suggest that they are physically tied, and therefore the pre-outs would necessarily be live when the internal amp is.
post #156 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitzant View Post

See this note at the bottom of page 25 (28 of .pdf file):
“When external power amplifier have been connected to PRE OUT terminals, do not connect the speakers to the speaker terminals.”

Yes, I just found that. So now I think the question is, are they saying "don't do that because something bad could happen", or "don't bother doing that, because it won't get you anywhere".

Regardless, I don't have any intention of connecting speakers to those outputs at the same time as using the pre-outs. I just want to make sure the pre-outs are live (on the rear channels) even if it's not in pre-amp mode.
post #157 of 23170
let me clarify, I agree with batpig's previous post:

"I don't see any reason to think that all the pre-outs will not be active in "11ch" mode."

They should be active, but, I can't find anything in the manual to confirm it.

Tom
post #158 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

You know who I really feel for?

"First-timers" who walk into this thread and have to digest the last 50 posts of maddening dialogue that likely won't apply to 95+% who own the AVR, lol!

James

This is good stuff man. I may not utilize all the different methods available, but I like to know my choices.

If I am intrepreting all this correctly, I could add an external amp to drive my Def Tech BP7000SC's (mains) at a later time, then use the amps originally assingned to fronts(mains) for heights?
post #159 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

, I could add an external amp to drive my Def Tech BP7000SC's (mains) at a later time, then use the amps originally assingned to fronts(mains) for heights?

Yes, that much does seem to be clear in the manual.
post #160 of 23170
No, I know counsil, just imagine how daunting it may appear to a newbie!

James
post #161 of 23170
Well if they WEREN'T active, guys like me would really be up a creek, looking to utilize the 11CH mode where the Denon "thinks" it's driving 9 speakers while simultaneously pre-outting 7.

If you dont't have 11 channels of external channels of amplification but want to use an existing 5 or 7 channel amplifier, they really dont give you a choice.

James
post #162 of 23170
this same "warning" has existed in Denon manuals for years, it doesn't in any way mean that the pre-outs are not "hot" at all times. Darin's interpretation of "don't do that because something bad could happen" is correct
post #163 of 23170
So let me ask you guys something.. My plans were to buy an external amp to drive my front speakers, center and the height or wide speakers and use the Denon for everything else. Is this possible or at least possible to use the pre-outs for the F/C speakers? I am confused on how flexible the pre-outs are on the receiver.
post #164 of 23170
When will they ship 4311?
post #165 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

So let me ask you guys something.. My plans were to buy an external amp to drive my front speakers, center and the height or wide speakers and use the Denon for everything else. Is this possible or at least possible to use the pre-outs for the F/C speakers? I am confused on how flexible the pre-outs are on the receiver.

yes, you are fine with your plan
post #166 of 23170
After a first pass through the manual (yikes!), I have a couple of questions. I am upgrading from a 12 year old HTIB, so be gentle.

I waited for the release of this receiver in hopes of future proofing as much as possible. We are using in-wall speakers but have no appropriate wall space for the front wides. My wife really wants to upgrade her two channel equipment and we would love to combine both of our needs into one system.

So, does it appear possible, with this receiver, to use externally amped floorstanding speakers as the front wides for movies (11.2), etc. and route her two channel audio to those same speakers for music listening?

I appreciate any advise....this forum is a gold mine.

JB
post #167 of 23170
no, the "wides" cannot be the stereo speakers for 2-ch.

why not simply use the dedicated 2-ch speakers as FRONTS, not wides? The +/- 60-degree spacing for "wide" speakers isn't appropriate for 2-ch listening anyway.
post #168 of 23170
"The pre-outs and matching speaker posts cannot both be used at the same time ...
I don't actually get this..."


I'm using both, Front L/R main speaker outputs and the Front L/R preouts of my 3311, to drive my NHT Evolution T5 front speakers (the preouts go to NHTs X1 controller which then goes to 2 NHT A1 amps to drive each T5 sub module).
I haven't had any issues with this configuration.... so far.

DreamCatcher
post #169 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

no, the "wides" cannot be the stereo speakers for 2-ch.

please clarify how my scenario is different from pg 59 of the manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

why not simply use the dedicated 2-ch speakers as FRONTS, not wides?

asthetics, mainly, although she said she would "consider it"

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The +/- 60-degree spacing for "wide" speakers isn't appropriate for 2-ch listening anyway.

the floor speakers would be movable enough that it would work from where she listens

thanks again,
JB
post #170 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by robber616 View Post

When will they ship 4311?

Hello,

I agree with other posters here that batpig, Darin and mastermaybe are actually doing an excellent job of decoding the otherwise-inscrutable Denon manual. Some of the conversation is a tad arcane, to be sure, but then real newbies are rarely going to be chasing after eleven discrete channels for their setup; five usually takes care of them.

I do want to "+1" robber616's inquiry: does anyone know anything about when these things are expected to ship? I know one of you (can't recall your name off-hand--sorry) was given 9/15 as a ship date; is that just an estimate from one retailer, somewhat harder data from a big distributor or something else? I'm sorry to push on this, but I am absolutely bursting with excitement over this thing and am dying to know just how soon I could expect to get one. Like batpig, I'm "making do" with a still-very-respectable 2310 today, but I'm looking to swing for the fences now!

Thanks,

Noob
post #171 of 23170
I think the issue with the pre-outs and the amp outputs is that you have one volume control for both. It's not clear that attaching a speaker to the amp output and running the pre thru an amplifier to a second identical speaker would give the same volume....and certainly to speakers of different efficiency, there could be quite different volumes. However, if your amp has a volume control, you could use that to balance the two outputs. It might be possible to use both for bi-amping if you have a level control between your separate amp and the speaker.

For bi-amping, you might be able to do some clever routing of the pre-out to an analog input for zone 2 and then using that output for your bi-amping....hmmm... I might just try that.
post #172 of 23170
^ i understand your thrust, but I believe the reason the question arose was the "fear" that configuring the amps a certain way would render the pre's useless.

Again, since some potential configs essentially quasi-insist that you select a mode that's intended to power speakers from the 4311 that you're REALLY powering with external amps, the pre's remaining fuctional for these channels is imperative.

Like my future set-up: I'll choose the 11CH mode, where most would usually power the Center, Wides, Heights, Surrounds, and Backs with the 4311 and externally power the Fronts.

But I will power all but the Heights and Backs externally...and therefore I'll need the pre-outs to remain "on", even though the config is intended to power those channels with the internal amp.

I dont't think anything over a fraction of a fraction of a % are looking to run 2 pairs of Fronts, Sides, Wides, etc by using the internal and external amplifiers...and that is neither advisable nor particularly straight-forward to do, as already mentioned.

James
post #173 of 23170
Thread Starter 
I still think it's a missed opportunity on the part of Denon to not include a fully assignable/pre-ampable amp section.
I mean, afaik no 4811 has been announced nor is it likely to be announced in the near future. So why not, in light of their 100y anniversary, go all out and make this 'lesser' model their flagship receiver (not taking their pre/pro into consideration).

The (very minor) 'problem' for me is that at the moment I don't have the room to put 11.2 speakers. I can barely squeeze in a 7.1 as it is (granted the .1 is an 18" DIY cylinder behemoth ) and only want to use the 11.2 this receiver offers once I start and complete my house over the next 2 years (I hope) in which case the current implementation by Denon would suit me fine...

What I would've considered to be ideal right now though is that the preamp function would not disable all amps by default, but only selected amps. That way, I could set this receiver up as follows...

- 7.1 config -> 2 internal amps unused and turned off!
- fronts externally amplified -> preouts used, internal amps turned off!
- Center/SL/SR/SBL/SBR amplified internally -> only 5 internal amps need to be turned on
---> Of course I know I can have a setup that comes very close to this (provided all preouts are live at all times), but the difference is that now all amps will be on all the time.

OR at least, since no 'selectable preamp' mode is available

- 7.1 config -> 2 internal amps unused
- fronts externally amplified -> an additional 2 internal amps unused
- Center/SL/SR/SBL/SBR amplified internally -> 5 internal amps in use
---> Use the 4 unused amps for Zone2/3. In full preamp mode using Zone2/3 is possible according to the manual by using the front wide and surround back speaker terminals, but that's not what I need since then all other amps are disabled (and I would still not be allowed to choose where I want the Zone2/3 to come out of anyway)... If I interpret the manual correctly, what would be possible though is to have only Zone2 (selectable output from either FH, FW or SB) together with externally amped fronts but then I would still leave 2 amps unused...

...and then when I 'migrate' to my new place, the existing 11ch implementation by Denon would fit me perfectly though as I would simply use the 9amps to drive anything but the front speakers and amplify those externally...
post #174 of 23170
Yaaaaay. The 4311 does have vtuner!

I don't like how they do so much black and white in the GUI. Sucks. Should be more pretty and colorful.
post #175 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Still not available for purchase anywhere! Anyone know when it will be shipping?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Noob View Post

I do want to "+1" robber616's inquiry: does anyone know anything about when these things are expected to ship? I know one of you (can't recall your name off-hand--sorry) was given 9/15 as a ship date; is that just an estimate from one retailer, somewhat harder data from a big distributor or something else?

According to cnet, the 4311 has already been discontinued! Such a shame too because I was really looking forward to buying one!

Seriously, the only authorized online dealer (so far) that has it for preorder is J&R but no shipping date is posted (yet). I don't think anyone except perhaps Denon insiders of course know exactly when it will ship at this time.

The 9/15 date was given by a unauthorized (online) dealer on Audiogon, so I wouldn't put too much weight in this date, especially since it's the 9th and the major e-tailers have very little to say about this AVR being only 6 days from the supposed ship date.

My personal opinion is that we will need to wait until CEDIA. Perhaps now that product info is officially available from Denon we will start to see preorders popping up at the authorized sites over the next week or two in advance of CEDIA with a ship date sometime in late September.

Don't get me wrong, I hope I am wrong and it ships earlier as I too am pretty excited about this AVR, especially due to the pre-amp mode (finally!) and dual-subwoofer/calibration (also finally!) support. I should have a few more weeks ahead of me before my speakers are finished and that should match up fairly well with the 4311's ship date (around or just after CEDIA I am assuming), but my subs have already arrived so I'm no doubt ready to get this party started!

Hang in there!
Josh

EDIT: Authorized online seller Worldwide Stereo now has it for preorder as well, no ship date however.
post #176 of 23170
Thread Starter 
This site (in french) mentions an october release for the EU and an MSRP of 2500
Can only hope they're wrong...
They got their info at the IFA 2010 convention in Berlin though, so it would seem very plausible.

http://www.avcesar.com/actu/id-4928/...-AVR-4311.html
post #177 of 23170
You guys know the rule, right?:

As L (lust) increases => W (wait) similarly increases.

It's a widely-known premise in this industry.

James
post #178 of 23170
cnet sucks. They know squat. That page is from April it says. Discontinued means only after it's been out.
post #179 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

As L (lust) increases => W (wait) similarly increases.

Exactly!

I didn't want to bring up the dreaded "O" month, but DisTreSs might have his finger on the pulse.

We'll see...looking forward to it either way.
post #180 of 23170
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoonerCaniac View Post

Exactly!

I didn't want to bring up the dreaded "O" month, but DisTreSs might have his finger on the pulse.

We'll see...looking forward to it either way.

Thx but don't quote me on that yet
I'm talking strictly EU release here, US traditionally gets stuff sooner so get to drooling again

On top of that, I found a german site which mentioned (article written 23/08/2010 so prior to the IFA show) a 2500 and october release for the A100, not the 4311.
http://www.player.de/2010/08/23/deno...imkino-gerate/

This to me would seem to be much more likely and probably means the 4311 will be substantially cheaper than the 2500 mentioned by the french article for the 4311. This doesn't change anything with regards to the release date though: it could be that Denon launches the 4311 along with the A100 in october, waits to release it after it has flogged a decent amount of A100's or releases it prior to releasing the A100
Anything goes at this point I suppose.
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