AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK]
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 549

post #16441 of 21928
4/11/12 at 5:13am
It's really not worth sweating the LFE LPF setting. As has been said many times, just leave it at 120Hz. It used to default to 80 on almost all processors, now it's 120, for reasons quoted above and to accommodate the more aggressive use made of LFE in some films. The channel itself is not limited to 120Hz-that is a film industry convention.

Warning- more esoteric content:

I've tried comparing 80 and 120 for LFE-laden material and it's pretty hard to tell any difference irt "losing" any rumble or impact of LFE. That's because of two things. One, there's often not all that much content from 80-120 in the LFE. Two, setting it to 80 does not place a "brick wall" at 80-rather, it begins a freq response roll-off from 80 upwards.

One exception I make with LFE is for listening to a SACD or DVDA that has a .1 ch. I often purposely use 80Hz as occasionally weird crap (cymbals, snare, noise) gets left in the LFE channel by mistake. I also frequently trim the LFE ch setting in the AVR down 5-10 dB till the bass sounds correct to my ear as their are no mixing standards for LFE level in music as there are for film.
Reply
Reply

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #16442 of 21928
4/11/12 at 7:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

It's really not worth sweating the LFE LPF setting. As has been said many times, just leave it at 120Hz. It used to default to 80 on almost all processors, now it's 120, for reasons quoted above and to accommodate the more aggressive use made of LFE in some films. The channel itself is not limited to 120Hz-that is a film industry convention.

Warning- more esoteric content:

I've tried comparing 80 and 120 for LFE-laden material and it's pretty hard to tell any difference irt "losing" any rumble or impact of LFE. That's because of two things. One, there's often not all that much content from 80-120 in the LFE. Two, setting it to 80 does not place a "brick wall" at 80-rather, it begins a freq response roll-off from 80 upwards.

One exception I make with LFE is for listening to a SACD or DVDA that has a .1 ch. I often purposely use 80Hz as occasionally weird crap (cymbals, snare, noise) gets left in the LFE channel by mistake. I also frequently trim the LFE ch setting in the AVR down 5-10 dB till the bass sounds correct to my ear as their are no mixing standards for LFE level in music as there are for film.

Roger Dressler has also posted that an 80 Hz setting reduces unwanted signals in the LFE channel on poorly mixed MC music recordings, which is why he recommends leaving it at 80 Hz. This is something of an edge case, so I think the recommendation of leaving it set to 120 Hz will reduce confusion.
Reply
Reply
post #16443 of 21928
4/11/12 at 7:17am
^Yes, indeed I should've credited Roger as he was the one who posted about this on the Audyssey thread some time ago and thus brought it to my attention. I will comment that such "poorly mixed" production errors can be found on otherwise very well done (in fact some I consider reference-level production) MC discs. And, in fairness, I never noticed the extraneous content even during critical listening. I had to turn off the amp that powers my sat channels to hear it clearly.
Reply
Reply
post #16444 of 21928
4/12/12 at 10:50am
Maybe silly question but.... Is there sound quality difference when you bistream audio from "budget" BD player (like Panasonic BDP-220/Sony BDP-S590) in comparison with "normal" player (like Oppo BDP-93) to AVR-4311? Can anyone share personal experience? In advance I can say, that I don't have DVD collection (upscaling future not so important) and have doubt if it is worth to go for Oppo, when I mainly watch BD movies and from time to time would like to listen FLAC's from shared folder in computer.
Reply
Reply
post #16445 of 21928
4/12/12 at 10:58am
^^^

nope...
Reply
Reply
post #16446 of 21928
4/12/12 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcetomLT View Post

Maybe silly question but.... Is there sound quality difference when you bistream audio from "budget" BD player (like Panasonic BDP-220/Sony BDP-S590) in comparison with "normal" player (like Oppo BDP-93) to AVR-4311? Can anyone share personal experience? In advance I can say, that I don't have DVD collection (upscaling future not so important) and have doubt if it is worth to go for Oppo, when I mainly watch BD movies and from time to time would like to listen FLAC's from shared folder in computer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

nope...

Just saying "nope" is too broad and really does not answer the question being presented to the group.

To the OP, in my opinion, it depends on your hearing, and your setup including speakers. I have the 4310 with full MartinLogan speakers, front/surround, a LG BD570, and an Oppo BDP-93 that was just added. I can state with confidence and experience that the Oppo indeed is noticeably better in the SQ department in comparison to the LG. So much so in fact, that my wife came in and asked how come the music sounded so much better! PQ is also better, but not as drastically different as the SQ is.

In my opinion I say go for the Oppo if like me, sound quality is HUGE to you.
Reply
Reply
post #16447 of 21928
4/12/12 at 11:48am
^^^

it answered his question...

ah, the old "even my wife from the other room noticed" routine... on bitstreamed data... right...

yea, i don't give a darn about sound quality...
Reply
Reply
post #16448 of 21928
4/12/12 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post


Just saying "nope" is too broad and really does not answer the question being presented to the group.

To the OP, in my opinion, it depends on your hearing, and your setup including speakers. I have the 4310 with full MartinLogan speakers, front/surround, a LG BD570, and an Oppo BDP-93 that was just added. I can state with confidence and experience that the Oppo indeed is noticeably better in the SQ department in comparison to the LG. So much so in fact, that my wife came in and asked how come the music sounded so much better! PQ is also better, but not as drastically different as the SQ is.

In my opinion I say go for the Oppo if like me, sound quality is HUGE to you.

Since the bitstream in both cases is being decoded by the 4311, what do you attribute the SQ difference to?
Reply
Reply
post #16449 of 21928
4/12/12 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

it answered his question...

ah, the old "even my wife from the other room noticed" routine... on bitstreamed data... right...

yea, i don't give a darn about sound quality...

Answered incorrectly...

And it is obvious you don't have a clue, thus your not caring about SQ.
Reply
Reply
post #16450 of 21928
4/12/12 at 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Since the bitstream in both cases is being decoded by the 4311, what do you attribute the SQ difference to?

You mean the 4310? What about the PQ being better as well??? It is the top shelf components used to build the Oppo vs. the grab bag components used to build the LG that makes the difference in my opinion.
Reply
Reply
post #16451 of 21928
4/12/12 at 12:34pm
Either the bits are sent correctly or they are not. Bitstreaming sends the unencoded audio to the next device (the AVR) which then decodes it. The only thing the player does when it bitstreams is sends the undecoded audio. In both instances, the AVR is doing the decoding.

The question asked is analogous to asking if it is better to send a zipped file from an entry level Dell desktop or a fully loaded Alienware desktop. There is no difference.

Now sending LCPM, maybe, since the decoders on the device are in use. They SHOULD still be the same, but they could be different, depending on software issues. PQ could be different, since different video decoders are in use between the two.
Reply
Reply
post #16452 of 21928
4/12/12 at 12:40pm
A-ha! I missed the "bistreaming" part. For bitstream then there is zero difference. If using the players internals then yes, a difference.
Reply
Reply
post #16453 of 21928
4/12/12 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post


You mean the 4310? What about the PQ being better as well??? It is the top shelf components used to build the Oppo vs. the grab bag components used to build the LG that makes the difference in my opinion.

No, this is the 4311 thread. And we are talking about audio, not video. I have an Oppo BDP-93, so no need to preach to the choir--we know it has superior video. But the question is whether bitstream audio will sound different, and the answer is no. You should read the OP more carefully.
Reply
Reply
post #16454 of 21928
4/12/12 at 1:32pm
Thank you everyone for quick replies!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

In my opinion I say go for the Oppo if like me, sound quality is HUGE to you.

Good point - I forgot about SPDIF for stereo records listening. Thing to thought
Quote:
The question asked is analogous to asking if it is better to send a zipped file from an entry level Dell desktop or a fully loaded Alienware desktop. There is no difference.

Well... Together with friends about 1 year ago we had opportunity to try bitsreaming losless stereo recordings through asynchronous USB to Ayre QB-9 DAC from 3 different PC's (2 notebooks and one desktop PC). We used foobar2000 player with the same settings in all three PC's . All three PCs sounded diferently. One notebook bistreamed very "muddy" sound, another notebook was better. And the best ("high fidelity") bitsreaming was from desktop PC .
That is why I asked about HD audio bitsreaming from BD players to AVR-4311. Thanks to all of you now this topic is cleared.

P.s. I updated my public profile about gear I use.
Reply
Reply
post #16455 of 21928
4/12/12 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcetomLT View Post

Thank you everyone for quick replies!

Good point - I forgot about SPDIF for stereo records listening. Thing to thought

Well... Together with friends about 1 year ago we had opportunity to try bitsreaming losless stereo recordings through asynchronous USB to Ayre QB-9 DAC from 3 different PC's (2 notebooks and one desktop PC). We used foobar2000 player with the same settings in all three PC's . All three PCs sounded diferently. One notebook bistreamed very "muddy" sound, another notebook was better. And the best ("high fidelity") bitsreaming was from desktop PC . That is why I asked about HD audio bitsreaming from BD players to AVR-4311 .

There is an article over on The Absolute Sound about audio quality differences when playing computer audio. Sounds like you might enjoy it....
Reply
Reply
post #16456 of 21928
4/12/12 at 1:39pm
Quote:
You should read the OP more carefully.

And you should have read my initial post more carefully yourself:
Quote:
I have the 4310

which you yourself quoted.

I KNOW what thread this is and the reason I stated I have the 4310.
Reply
Reply
post #16457 of 21928
4/12/12 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

And you should have read my initial post more carefully yourself:
which you yourself quoted.

I KNOW what thread this is and the reason I stated I have the 4310.

Doesn't make any difference what receiver you have--bitstream will still sound the same. Or do you still not agree?
Reply
Reply
post #16458 of 21928
4/12/12 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Answered incorrectly...

And it is obvious you don't have a clue, thus your not caring about SQ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

A-ha! I missed the "bistreaming" part. For bitstream then there is zero difference. If using the players internals then yes, a difference.

gee... maybe i do have a clue after all... possibly it's because i actually read the question... which was simple, and only required a simple answer...

for someone who doesn't care about sq, i sure have put a lot of effort/money into it... you might want to peruse my build thread before you make any assumptions...

fwiw, i have an oppo 93... imo, it's the best disk spinner out there, as it will play anything i put in it (other than red disks)... but i don't use the processing in it, i use my radiance for video...

a second fwiw... if you have a 93 and a hdmi enabled avr (which you do), you shouldn't bother even using analog... all you are doing is hurting yourself by defeating bm/rc in the avr...

i'm not even going to go into the "my wife heard it from the other room" thing... it strains credulity that any difference in an analog section (that in any non-broken modern equipment is very small at best) could be immediately discerned by someone in another room...
Reply
Reply
post #16459 of 21928
4/12/12 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

There is an article over on The Absolute Sound about audio quality differences when playing computer audio. Sounds like you might enjoy it....

ah yes....
Reply
Reply
post #16460 of 21928
4/12/12 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post


Just saying "nope" is too broad and really does not answer the question being presented to the group.

To the OP, in my opinion, it depends on your hearing, and your setup including speakers. I have the 4310 with full MartinLogan speakers, front/surround, a LG BD570, and an Oppo BDP-93 that was just added. I can state with confidence and experience that the Oppo indeed is noticeably better in the SQ department in comparison to the LG. So much so in fact, that my wife came in and asked how come the music sounded so much better! PQ is also better, but not as drastically different as the SQ is.

In my opinion I say go for the Oppo if like me, sound quality is HUGE to you.

Stop IT. My wife only knows one thing about the oppo. It came with one handy bag
Reply
Reply
post #16461 of 21928
4/12/12 at 2:33pm
^^^

LOL!

i did not let her see the bag, i stuffed it carefully back away in the box for the day the 93 gets sold...
Reply
Reply
post #16462 of 21928
4/12/12 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

Stop IT. My wife only knows one thing about the oppo. It came with one handy bag

Cliche' as it is, it IS true. But since you mentioned it, she was more thrilled that the reusable tote came with it!
Reply
Reply
post #16463 of 21928
4/12/12 at 7:02pm
I getting even closer to the dark side...stay tuned guys
Reply
Reply
post #16464 of 21928
4/12/12 at 8:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

I getting even closer to the dark side...stay tuned guys

Cool, did you come across one of those "lucky dog" deals?
Reply
Reply
post #16465 of 21928
4/12/12 at 11:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post


There is an article over on The Absolute Sound about audio quality differences when playing computer audio. Sounds like you might enjoy it....

Do you happen to have a link?

Thanks.
Reply
Reply
post #16466 of 21928
4/13/12 at 6:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcetomLT View Post

Thank you everyone for quick replies!


Good point - I forgot about SPDIF for stereo records listening. Thing to thought

Well... Together with friends about 1 year ago we had opportunity to try bitsreaming losless stereo recordings through asynchronous USB to Ayre QB-9 DAC from 3 different PC's (2 notebooks and one desktop PC). We used foobar2000 player with the same settings in all three PC's . All three PCs sounded diferently. One notebook bistreamed very "muddy" sound, another notebook was better. And the best ("high fidelity") bitsreaming was from desktop PC .
That is why I asked about HD audio bitsreaming from BD players to AVR-4311. Thanks to all of you now this topic is cleared.

P.s. I updated my public profile about gear I use.

The term "bitstream" has a slightly different meaning when talking about audio over USB than when talking about audio over HDMI. Over HDMI, bitstream only refers to unprocessed raw data from the disc. All audio over USB is bitstream in a different sense, in that its just a stream of bits, but it is all processed through the PC's software, operating system, USB drivers, etc. The mere fact that it is possible to control the volume of USB audio on the PC side indicates that it isn't sending the raw audio data.

USB audio simply has too many hardware and software variables involved on the PC end. Audio over HDMI is more straightforward. If both the player and the AVR (with DAC) support the bitstream protocol, no two players should sound any different into the same AVR unless one of the players is defective.
Reply
Reply
post #16467 of 21928
4/13/12 at 7:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post


Do you happen to have a link?

Thanks.

I subscribe to the print magazine, which is where I read the series of four articles. The first article appeared in the December 2011 issue. The articles were titled "Computer Music Audio Quality", by Dr Charles Zeilig and Jay Clawson. Perhaps the articles are available somewhere on the Net. The articles generated a firestorm of criticism from all sorts of audio experts in various discussion groups, like this one: http://www.avguide.com/forums/comput...quality?page=2
Reply
Reply
post #16468 of 21928
4/13/12 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I subscribe to the print magazine, which is where I read the series of four articles. The first article appeared in the December 2011 issue. The articles were titled "Computer Music Audio Quality", by Dr Charles Zeilig and Jay Clawson. Perhaps the articles are available somewhere on the Net. The articles generated a firestorm of criticism from all sorts of audio experts in various discussion groups, like this one: http://www.avguide.com/forums/comput...quality?page=2

Articles like this is why I no longer subscribe to any of the audio mags.
Reply
Reply
post #16469 of 21928
4/14/12 at 3:48am
As of yesterday I am a new owner. Not a proud one yet since I have encountered a problem that I am hoping someone could help me solve.

Connecting the Denon with my Panasonic plasma, Oppo 93 and XBox was quite trivial and plug and play.

Connecting with my HTPC, however, is another story. Before I had my AMD 4500 series video card connected directly to the TV. Therefore I connect to the Denon DVR input using the same HDMI cable that works with the TV. Result: no signal!
When I reboot the PC I do get video through the AVR but as soon as Windows 7 loads, the video is lost!

Catalist driver is configured for 1080p 60Hz, and that's how I have used it with the TV for 2 years.

Other than play with the HTPC resolution, I have no other idea and feel I am stuck.

Has anybody run into similar issue?
Reply
Reply
post #16470 of 21928
4/14/12 at 5:28am
^^^

sadly, many htpc owners run into issues when a repeater is placed in the chain... and virtually all of those issues are caused by the htpc, whether it be a setting or a driver that is off...

best suggestion is to check in the htpc forum to see what other members have the same video card/config that you have...

good luck... i know that connection issues suck...
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Gear mentioned in this thread:

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK]