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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 559

post #16741 of 21912
4/24/12 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

...for your 2 channel audio, you would select the appropriate input on the 2 channel preamp and the 4311CI can be turned off.

Unless you have really high end speakers, excellent amplification, and a room with excellent acoustics, it really isn't worth even thinking about this as the money you would need to spend to get a 2 channel preamp that's enough better than the 4311CI would be better spent on room treatments, better speakers, more music / movies, etc.

+1. I documented my HT bypass analog preamp experiments here. You can save yourself the trouble I went through. The bottom line is DSP RC trumps all preamps and DAC differences in most any room that's not been properly acoustically treated.

The good news is that the rest of us can get that same sort of SQ benefit from an Audyssey Pro kit. Same for a DenonLink-capable player. 4311+Pro+DenonLink is a killer combo IME.
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post #16742 of 21912
4/24/12 at 1:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
Again, correct. The on board audio services to include Airplay, Pandora, Rhapsody, and internet radio stations can be passed to Zone 2 (with Airplay being only exception that cannot play independently to Zone 2).

so main zone and zone 2 can play same source for the on board services (aiplay, pandora etc) and then zone 2 can play independently of main zone EXCEPT for Airplay e.g. airplay only in 2 if main is playing as well.
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post #16743 of 21912
4/24/12 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

@lotus...

i wouldn't worry about it...

anecdotally, there have been very few (any?) reports of power supply failures...

and anecdotally, many owners use their avrs HARD...

+1 I have my A100 (lead footed 4311) on for at least 12 to 14 hours a day and other than having a cooguys fan on each end of the old converted Southwestern dresser never have any issues. You also don't know what kind of speakers they are driving. I have not seen any Sports bars dropping any money into speakers (that I have seen) for listening to football or baseball games. I could be wrong but any amp trying to push subpar speakers under less than ideal conditions would fail much sooner than one used in a home.
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post #16744 of 21912
4/24/12 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by swizzchard View Post

so main zone and zone 2 can play same source for the on board services (aiplay, pandora etc) and then zone 2 can play independently of main zone EXCEPT for Airplay e.g. airplay only in 2 if main is playing as well.

Correct.
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post #16745 of 21912
4/24/12 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Correct.

Thank you. You are helpful. With over 500 pages (depending on your thread view settings) theres no way I could search for my precise answer.

This limitation is something that exists with the xx12 line from what I can tell.

Does the 4311 allow for naming the zones?
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post #16746 of 21912
4/24/12 at 2:15pm
^^
Correct, the limitation exists on XX12 and XX11 models and is now lifted on the XX13 models, and yes, you can rename the Zones.
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post #16747 of 21912
4/24/12 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

First off, I agree with the other responses that it's probably not worth considering this, but...

The whole point of getting a dedicated stereo preamp would be to take the "weak" link in the chain (which would presumably be the 4311CI) out of the loop. So how it would be wired up is:

1) Connect the front left/right preamp outputs on the 4311CI to the bypass input on the 2 channel preamp. Preamps that are designed for this purpose will either have a dedicated bypass input or a switch to put the preamp into bypass mode. Bypass basically disables the volume control and other settings on the preamp turning it into a passthrough device.

2) Connect the left/right outputs on the 2 channel preamp to external amplification and then connect your front left/right speakers to the outputs on the external amp(s).

3) Connect the rest of your speakers to the appropriate speaker outputs on the 4311CI (or use the preamp outputs for those speakers on the 4311CI to additional external amplification).

4) Connect your best analog sources (phono preamp outputs, the dedicated 2 channel outputs on an Oppo BDP-95, etc.) to inputs on the 2 channel preamp.

When you want to listen to sources on the the 4311CI, you set the 2 channel preamp to the bypass input and pretend it isn't there. So volume control, input source selection, etc. would all happen on the 4311CI.

When you want the "best" sound (we'll ignore the benefits of Audyssey for this discussion ) for your 2 channel audio, you would select the appropriate input on the 2 channel preamp and the 4311CI can be turned off.

Unless you have really high end speakers, excellent amplification, and a room with excellent acoustics, it really isn't worth even thinking about this as the money you would need to spend to get a 2 channel preamp that's enough better than the 4311CI would be better spent on room treatments, better speakers, more music / movies, etc.

This is precisely what I do! 8-)

I use a Primare Pre30 as my 2ch pre fitted into the system exactly this way. However one variation is that I have a dedicated CD player....
I have tried running the CD player via the 4311 using Audessy but the results were not nearly as good for 2ch, I also found the same with LPs using a dedicated phono pre-amp feeding both the Primare & Denon.

However one qualification is that I have spent a lot of time and effort optimising the acoustics in the room and run Paradigm Signature 6 speakers.

I even tried running via the Denon and utilising the Subs for 2ch and that was even worse! Go figure.......

The 4311 is an awsome AVR for HT duties but I still prefer a dedicated setup for 2ch duties. As I see it, the way I have things set up I get the best of both worlds in the same room!

Very happy camper. 8-)
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post #16748 of 21912
4/24/12 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

You mean the internal amps don't really turn off in pre-amp mode?

Not a single professional review of the 4311 that I've seen understands this correctly. The reviewers (and many of Denon's own marketing people) think that preamp mode means the amps are shut off. And that's how one would logically think it works. But it doesn't.

What actually happens in preamp mode is that the signal input to the internal amps is disconnected (the relay you hear when you activate preamp mode), but the power to the amps remains connected.
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post #16749 of 21912
4/24/12 at 4:10pm
It works!!!
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post #16750 of 21912
4/24/12 at 4:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

just out of curiosity... and not because i'm ready to convince myself that i really need an avp... sadly, my a/v cash bucket is empty...

but you never know when a killer deal might pop up on one... so...

if someone took away your avp tomorrow, would you be content using the 4311 in place of it, or would you seek out another avp?

Well, I think I would probably hunt down whoever took my AVP and {censored}... Honestly, it's a tough question for me to answer as my 2 systems are very different and I really can't do a fair comparison without hooking the 4311 into my main system and that would be a royal PITA to do (the AVP is rack mounted, I use balanced connections to my amp, etc.). I'm sure I could live with the 4311, but I suspect I'd probably track down another AVP.
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post #16751 of 21912
4/24/12 at 4:51pm
Yeah Chris that makes a lot of sense, as usual
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post #16752 of 21912
4/24/12 at 5:01pm
@gsr...

thanks, that's fair enough... that's kinda what i expected to hear...

obviously, we would expect you to exact retribution upon the scoundrel who removed the avp in the first place...

@gov...

thanks, and you are welcome... again, it's "rule of thumb", not "hard cold fact", so ymmv... but it generally works pretty well for me...

expanding a bit on the "getting the most out of my speakers"... it can easily (and generally correctly) be argued that by crossing them higher, you are allowing them to perform better with the frequencies that they do get... so it really is a win-win for most people to cross as high as possible* vs. as low as possible...

* obviously, not so high that they localize...
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post #16753 of 21912
4/24/12 at 6:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbox View Post

Not a single professional review of the 4311 that I've seen understands this correctly. The reviewers (and many of Denon's own marketing people) think that preamp mode means the amps are shut off. And that's how one would logically think it works. But it doesn't.

What actually happens in preamp mode is that the signal input to the internal amps is disconnected (the relay you hear when you activate preamp mode), but the power to the amps remains connected.

Very interesting.
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post #16754 of 21912
4/24/12 at 7:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbox View Post

Not a single professional review of the 4311 that I've seen understands this correctly. The reviewers (and many of Denon's own marketing people) think that preamp mode means the amps are shut off. And that's how one would logically think it works. But it doesn't.

What actually happens in preamp mode is that the signal input to the internal amps is disconnected (the relay you hear when you activate preamp mode), but the power to the amps remains connected.

Not exactly a 'green' solution.
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post #16755 of 21912
4/24/12 at 9:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

i agree with batpig, the best way to tell would be to measure, the second best would be to listen...

i tend to err towards 80hz, personally... for a few reasons:

- higher crossover is kinder to the avr's power supply...

- even though the speakers are "rated" that low, it is likely that the subwoofer will produce those frequencies with more authority... that's it's only purpose in life...

- the scenario that we've been beating around in the audyssey pro thread for the last several days... the most "damaging" room modes tend to occur below 80hz in most home environments, and these are more easily dealt with by positioning of the subwoofer/eq of the subwoofer/tweaking of the subwoofer...

edit: i know it's tempting for people to cross as low as possible, because they want to "get the most out of their speakers"...

instead, look at it as "getting more out of your subwoofer, and the most out of your system"...

I generally agree with this, with only one caveat...I am very sensitive to being able to localize a sub if it is crossed over near or above 80ish Hz. I recently upgraded my CC although it has relatively poor LF response. Audyssey set the CC xover to 100 Hz. Because my sub is located in the front left area of the room it now "feels" like my room is tilted to the left acoustically whenever there is significant LF energy in the CC. I'm hoping that the new CC speaker will loosen up a bit allowing me to cross it over at 80 Hz. The alternative corrective action is to buy a 2nd sub.
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post #16756 of 21912
4/24/12 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilbur_the_goose View Post

Not exactly a 'green' solution.

a HT powered by a $2000msrp, 9ch receiver is pretty far from 'green'

plus, if you are using pre-amp mode that means you have many channels of external amplification... that idling, disconnected internal amp section is the proverbial drop in the ol' bucket...
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post #16757 of 21912
4/24/12 at 11:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

a HT powered by a $2000msrp, 9ch receiver is pretty far from 'green'

No reason it couldn't, a higher price doesn't necessarily correlate to energy inefficiency - for example a prius costs roughly $10K more than a corolla.

FWIW, my 4311ci idles at about 100 watts and even powered down still sucks in about 12 watts.
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post #16758 of 21912
4/25/12 at 1:25am
Ciao,

I have additions 1 surround back speaker to the system. Now 8.2 (wide config in top fellow bedroom)

When I play 5.1 dts I only csn seem to choose "DTS + PLIIx M" or "DTS + NEO 6"


This is strnge? I believe "DTS + PLIIc" should be an option in this selection? I will watch a movie and not music? Why give music option but no PLIIx Cinema?

Do others know how to fix my wrong doing?

Edit|
Ok .. I figure this out.
Also seems that my previous question batpic have a go at me for, was no so stupid father all.

PLiix Cinema is not available in 6.1

I ask this question previously, i ask if i upgrade to 6.1 will this work for me? Batpic said yes and he say I was stupid!
He says for sure if it works with 2 surround back then it will also work with one! And said I should stop asking silly questions....

After testing, seems you were wrong again...
Seems it won't batpic! PLiix Cinema is nt viable in 6.1 and I bought new speakers based on you all saying I was stupid for thinking it wont work.

Why so many false holds printer in here as fact, and people not so sure (like me) are made to feel foolish for asking questions tht it seems we're infact valid, and the smart asses answering them with poisonous tongue were In fact wrong!
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post #16759 of 21912
4/25/12 at 3:36am
^^
In your previoius post you simply asked about DD PLLx and not specifically about "DD PLIIx - Cinema". If you had referred to your Owner's manual (p. 87) and looked at the Surround Back settings or the table on p. 129 you would have noted the caveat that DD PLIIx - Cinema is only available with (2) surround back speakers, while DD PLIIx - Music is available with (1) or (2) speakers. It never hurts to crack open the Owner's manual and do some reading.
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post #16760 of 21912
4/25/12 at 3:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by russ_777 View Post

... The alternative corrective action is to buy a 2nd sub.

There are numerous sonic benefits of carefully placing a second sub. Resistance is futile.
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post #16761 of 21912
4/25/12 at 3:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
In your previoius post you simply asked about DD PLLx and not specifically about "DD PLIIx - Cinema". If you had referred to your Owner's manual (p. 87) and looked at the Surround Back settings or the table on p. 129 you would have noted the caveat that DD PLIIx - Cinema is only available with (2) surround back speakers, while DD PLIIx - Music is available with (1) or (2) speakers. It never hurts to crack open the Owner's manual and do some reading.

I agree, the irony here though is batpic say the manual is too confusing and to use his created Denon to more user friendly version? This thread advertises a barpic website based on not reading the manual and Instead use/read the batpic manual translation...

However, when something goes wrong, like this, you say silly user "read the manual"

I ask him for advice based on this sentiment... Only followed the rules, flow and general consensus of the thread...

Any way, no arguing for sure, as I have now bought another set of speakers and they will Arrive next week... Problem solved.
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post #16762 of 21912
4/25/12 at 3:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilbur_the_goose View Post

Not exactly a 'green' solution.

I don't think Denon ever claimed that the purpose of preamp mode was energy conservation. Supposedly it was for sound quality. When using my external amp, I couldn't hear any difference turning preamp mode on and off, although there isn't a direct way to do a proper A-B comparison because Audyssey gets disengaged when switching preamp mode.
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post #16763 of 21912
4/25/12 at 4:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Beale View Post


However, when something goes wrong, like this, you say silly user "read the manual"

In fact, if you refer to "my" posts in any of these forum threads, I not only generally recommend reading the manual, but provide the specific page to go to to resolve the issue. Glad to hear your issue has been resolved.
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post #16764 of 21912
4/25/12 at 7:51am
Got an Oppo 93 yesterday. Its HDMI 1 or 2 output won't drive a 15 ft HDMI connection direct to my Sony VPL-HW15 projector, even using a 24AWG Monoprice cable. Tried a Mediabridge and Blue Jeans cable as well - same result.

Has anyone determined if there is any degradation in HDMI quality from the 4311? I can only think it would be small if any. Just wondering how much trouble I should go thru to get the direction connection to the PJ working. Thanks.
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post #16765 of 21912
4/25/12 at 7:53am
^^^

none, that i'm aware of...

it is "safe" to run the video through the avr, that is what i do to use it as a switch in front of my lumagen mini...
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post #16766 of 21912
4/25/12 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjones View Post

Got an Oppo 93 yesterday. Its HDMI 1 or 2 output won't drive a 15 ft HDMI connection direct to my Sony VPL-HW15 projector, even using a 24AWG Monoprice cable. Tried a Mediabridge and Blue Jeans cable as well - same result.

Has anyone determined if there is any degradation in HDMI quality from the 4311? I can only think it would be small if any. Just wondering how much trouble I should go thru to get the direction connection to the PJ working. Thanks.

I have a 35' run from my Oppo to my display as well as a 35' run from my 4311 to my display. Not only that, but I also have a 35' run from my xBox to my 4311. Each connection has two HDMI coupling plates and two 6' HDMI patch cables, one on each end. So the total is 3 x 47' HDMI runs to and from different devices with no issues. My 35' in wall runs are the Blue Jeans Series 1 cables and the patch cables were the standard ones from Monoprice.
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post #16767 of 21912
4/25/12 at 9:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

I have a 35' run from my Oppo to my display as well as a 35' run from my 4311 to my display. Not only that, but I also have a 35' run from my xBox to my 4311. Each connection has two HDMI coupling plates and two 6' HDMI patch cables, one on each end. So the total is 3 x 47' HDMI runs to and from different devices with no issues. My 35' in wall runs are the Blue Jeans Series 1 cables and the patch cables were the standard ones from Monoprice.

All this without in-line amps? I must have something else going on, then, or the Sony projector is picky.
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post #16768 of 21912
4/25/12 at 9:32am
Hey guys I need some help.

I've had my 4311 for about a month and now I am experiencing an issue.

Last night I noticed that when I adjusted my volume I couldn't see it on the screen. So I went into the menu and verified that video convert was on and it was. So I turned it off and back on again and it did the video overlay including the volume like it's supposed to. A little bit later, I changed channels and I noticed that I had the same issue I had before so I went into the menu which caused the whole screen go black because the video overlay wasn't working and turned it off and back on again.

Anyway, so I started to dig around and I did notice that my DirecTV DVR did receive an update at 2 AM yesterday morning which I think may have caused this issue.

My question to you guys is there anybody out there with a DirecTV DVR hooked up via HDMI to their 4311 that is experiencing this issue?

Dan
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post #16769 of 21912
4/25/12 at 9:36am
^^
Try resetting the DTV box as well as unplugging the AVR for a few minutes and see if that doesn't resolve the issue.
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post #16770 of 21912
4/25/12 at 9:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjones View Post

All this without in-line amps? I must have something else going on, then, or the Sony projector is picky.

Generally HDMI signal strength issues only result from cable length more than 20' or so and as you're using quality Monoprice and Blue Jeans cables, it's more likely a PJ issue.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK]