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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 563

post #16861 of 22054
4/28/12 at 3:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemir View Post

Thanks for this most excellent response, and especially thanks for the final paragraph. At this point, I am thinking about getting either SalkSounds or Selah Line Arrays for my speakers, and a relatively nice amplifier to drive them. But... If you consider those to be in the really high end, I would still need to deal with room treatments.


Room treatment came first for me, even before even moving my Paradigm Sigs in (with 4311, Primare 2ch & high end power amp) for their first test.....

You get a feel for how the room will behaive, even when it's relatively empty and that gives you a good place to start.
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post #16862 of 22054
4/28/12 at 4:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknd View Post

Hello,

My question is, is that too much to push for the 4311 and should I add an amp such as an XPA5 to push the 5.0 and let the Denon just push the surround backs? Also by using an external amp will I lose audyssey or any other benefits that the Denon offers. Thank you in advance.

It all depends on how loud you want to play your system. I have very highly efficient Klipsch Heritage speakers and I added an XPA-5. Then I went completly insane and bought another XPA-5 and a UPA-1 and now have 200W RMS to all 11 channels for A-DSX. Now I can play the system at any volume I wish (I can easily hit 120+db, but know not to!) without straining anything. The system headroom is now incredible. I also noticed a slightly brighter upper midrange using the Emotiva as well as better detail at low volume, especially in the surround channels.

Now is a great time to buy Emotiva amps - 10% off regular price.
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post #16863 of 22054
4/28/12 at 4:22am
For those using A-DSX 11.x: How important, if at all, is timbre matching for the height speakers? I assume that it is not that significant, but but would appreciate your input.
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post #16864 of 22054
4/28/12 at 4:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
Yes ... DIRECT or PURE DIRECT disengage Audyssey.

Does the same apply if you send it DSD via HDMI (e.g. from an Oppo BDP-83 player)?

Thanks again. Cheers.
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post #16865 of 22054
4/28/12 at 5:02am
^^^

if you engage direct, yes...

however, using dl to pass dsd to the avr will work as well, as long as you don't use dsd direct/direct...

don't use direct... as it defeats one of the major features of the avr, it is pointless in almost all situations...
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post #16866 of 22054
4/28/12 at 5:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

if you engage direct, yes...

however, using dl to pass dsd to the avr will work as well, as long as you don't use dsd direct/direct...

don't use direct... as it defeats one of the major features of the avr, it is pointless in almost all situations...

Sorry for the questions. I have one on order and am trying to figure out the best way to wire it up when I get it so I don't have to be digging around in the back of the equipment as it is hard to get at. ;-)

So you can send it DSD over HDMI or Denon Link 3rd and it can be processed as stereo which will allow the user to get bass management and Audyssey room correction?

Cheers.
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post #16867 of 22054
4/28/12 at 5:15am
^^^

yes... it will decimate the dsd to pcm, and do it's thing...

there's at least one user (soundofmind) who does it this way with dl, and i'm sure there are many others...

note: i just let my oppo (hdmi) decimate the dsd and pass it as pcm... habit, more than anything else...
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post #16868 of 22054
4/28/12 at 5:31am
I think I'm going to need some help as well in getting best performance with 2 channel listening. It's been nice so long since I had hooked up and configured my old 2809ci that I've forgotten

For most music I will probably listen 2.0 but will want the option of 2.1 when I want it. Previously I would bypass Audyssey, and my elementary knowledge and light reading have indicated this is preferred. Maybe not?

I will admit I haven't cracked open the manual yet, but will do so this weekend and put my old speakers in place just to get things set up (Audyssey will have to wait for new speakers).

Any guidance in advance on optimal configuration for music would be appreciated. Most of my source material will be streamed flac, either directly via DLNA or squeezebox.
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post #16869 of 22054
4/28/12 at 5:36am
noticed in another thread there was an update for the denon remote app (maybe someone mentioned it here as well, if so apologies in advance)...

looks a lot different... adds plus/minus to volume control...

adds in the ability to customize 8 soft buttons... nice, even though it's a very small subset of available commands... if a future release expands the command set significantly, that would be REALLY useful...

worth spending the 15 seconds to download...
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post #16870 of 22054
4/28/12 at 5:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

I think I'm going to need some help as well in getting best performance with 2 channel listening. It's been nice so long since I had hooked up and configured my old 2809ci that I've forgotten

For most music I will probably listen 2.0 but will want the option of 2.1 when I want it. Previously I would bypass Audyssey, and my elementary knowledge and light reading have indicated this is preferred. Maybe not?

I will admit I haven't cracked open the manual yet, but will do so this weekend and put my old speakers in place just to get things set up (Audyssey will have to wait for new speakers).

Any guidance in advance on optimal configuration for music would be appreciated. Most of my source material will be streamed flac, either directly via DLNA or squeezebox.

imo/ime, your "best bet" is to forget that you can even bypass audyssey on the avr... think of audyssey being on as a fixed setting... your room really doen't care whether it's 2, 5, 11, however many speakers producing the soundwaves... it's still going to impose it's will...

i'd also let my sub play all the time as well... corollary to the above audyssey point... your room/speakers don't care if they are reproducing music or movies... they can't care, they don't know... there's no causal relationship that exists... and in almost all cases*, the user will get better results by using their subwoofer... see the most recent several pages of the audyssey pro thread for many graphic illustrations and some explanations of the "why?" behind this...

* unless their sub is truly a pos, and anybody who has main speakers that can produce usable in-room response, say, into the 30's, is unlikely to have a pos sub...
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post #16871 of 22054
4/28/12 at 5:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by muad'dib View Post

.

Using a SVS AS-EQ1 to control 2 subs. Have single sub out of denon going into #1 sub in on SVS.

I upgraded to the 4311 from a 4308 + AS-EQ1. I conducted a number of tests to see if there was any advantage to keeping the AS-EQ1, given that the 4311 has Sub EQ HT. I determined that there was no reason to keep it. While my tests never revealed that there was a negative impact to bass by leaving the AS-EQ1 in the signal chain, there definitely wasn't an improvement. Like JD suggests, try removing it and re-calibrating to see if there is an improvement. The AS-EQ1 has a good resale value.

I am assuming that the separate AVR settings for two-channel music match the settings you use for multi-channel movies, correct?
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post #16872 of 22054
4/28/12 at 6:43am
Thanks Chris, I'll take your advice. I am fortunate that our speakers are more alike than different, so FWIW I will hang on to your every word. The speakers, yet to be in-house, are Philharmonic 2 that go down to 32Hz. Naturally I will want to listen to them with no eq applied but at this point have no clue which will be better. Logic would certainly indicate that the room characteristics ain't gonna change, but I reserve the right to be stubborn.

Previously I preferred to bypass both Audyssey and external sub for music listening, the speakers were Infinity Interlude IL60 with the powered subs on and R.A.B.O.S. tuning. I had no complaints.

My subwoofer, depending on the day, week or month, varies between pos and just OK. It's an eD A3-300. It's proven to be more a pos than anything else, but this is a carryover from my previous home and the room was much smaller. I need to upgrade to probably 2 beefier subs but have been waiting to upgrade speakers first, and this has taken nearly 4 years to make a decision. I just received my fourth amp for the eD back in November (it took about 5 months for them to finally admit that yet another amp needed to be replaced) and by then my room was stripped for a remodel, so I'm not sure once it's hooked back whether it's still a pos or not.

I'm starting with a clean slate, so this should be fun. With any luck it will rain today (did I just say that?) and I can justify going to the basement to play.
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post #16873 of 22054
4/28/12 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

Sorry for the questions. I have one on order and am trying to figure out the best way to wire it up when I get it so I don't have to be digging around in the back of the equipment as it is hard to get at. ;-)

So you can send it DSD over HDMI or Denon Link 3rd and it can be processed as stereo which will allow the user to get bass management and Audyssey room correction?

Cheers.

Oppo 83 to 4311 only requires a single HDMI connection for superb SQ, as Chris/ccotenj mentioned-that HDMI carries all audio and video from the Oppo as well as can be done IME.

You can easily A/B sending DSD vs PCM from the Oppo for yourself to see if you hear any difference. It does not require any cable change, just a setting change in the Oppo menu and then you simply level-match them in at the AVR when you do your comparisons. I found sending DSD from Oppos to several different Denon DSD-decoding AVRs (2809, 4310, 4311) consistently offers slightly better SQ for critical listening of well-recorded music- but it is pretty subtle "audiophile" stuff like fine detail, cymbal decay, reverb on vocals, etc.

For critical listening I use native modes like Stereo for 2 ch and Std Mode for MC(the 4311 will display MULTI CH IN), never Direct or Pure-Direct. I avoid expanding by use of PLII, DSX wides, Neo:6 etc.

To use DenonLink3, you need to have a DL3-capable player connected to the 4311 with a DL cable. The music content is carried in the DL (CAT5) cable. Now that beats the Oppo via HDMI by a considerably bigger amount quatitatively than sending DSD vs PCM mentioned above, and in qualitatively the same way. I was surprised how it improved even well-recorded RBCDs.

To use DenonLink4, you need to have a DL4 player connected to the 4311 with a DL cable and HDMI. I did not find that superior in any way for DVDs and Blurays over Oppo via HDMI. The additional clock info sent via the DL cable does nothing I can see or hear with my gear.
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post #16874 of 22054
4/28/12 at 8:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Oppo 83 to 4311 only requires a single HDMI connection for superb SQ, as Chris/ccotenj mentioned-that HDMI carries all audio and video from the Oppo as well as can be done IME.

You can easily A/B sending DSD vs PCM from the Oppo for yourself to see if you hear any difference. It does not require any cable change, just a setting change in the Oppo menu and then you simply level-match them in at the AVR when you do your comparisons. I found sending DSD from Oppos to several different Denon DSD-decoding AVRs (2809, 4310, 4311) consistently offers slightly better SQ for critical listening of well-recorded music- but it is pretty subtle "audiophile" stuff like fine detail, cymbal decay, reverb on vocals, etc.

For critical listening I use native modes like Stereo for 2 ch and Std Mode for MC(the 4311 will display MULTI CH IN), never Direct or Pure-Direct. I avoid expanding by use of PLII, DSX wides, Neo:6 etc.

To use DenonLink3, you need to have a DL3-capable player connected to the 4311 with a DL cable. The music content is carried in the DL (CAT5) cable. Now that beats the Oppo via HDMI by a considerably bigger amount quatitatively than sending DSD vs PCM mentioned above, and in qualitatively the same way. I was surprised how it improved even well-recorded RBCDs.

To use DenonLink4, you need to have a DL4 player connected to the 4311 with a DL cable and HDMI. I did not find that superior in any way for DVDs and Blurays over Oppo via HDMI. The additional clock info sent via the DL cable does nothing I can see or hear with my gear.

Thanks for the informative post. Re. the DL3 improvements (which is what I am shooting for.... just bought a used DVD-2930CI as more of a transport for RBCD, SACD and DVD-Audio) is that due to the Advanced AL24 Processing (e.g. upsampling)? Will probably sell my Oppo and use the Sony PS3 to play Blu-Rays etc. via HDMI.

The Oppo uses 24-bit/88.2KHz PCM when it converts from DSD to PCM vice the full resolution you get with DSD in native format.

Cheers.
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post #16875 of 22054
4/28/12 at 8:24am
It can't be the AL24 because that also applies to PCM input signals.
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post #16876 of 22054
4/28/12 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

Thanks for the informative post. Re. the DL3 improvements (which is what I am shooting for.... just bought a used DVD-2930CI as more of a transport for RBCD, SACD and DVD-Audio) is that due to the Advanced AL24 Processing (e.g. upsampling)? Will probably sell my Oppo and use the Sony PS3 to play Blu-Rays etc. via HDMI....The Oppo uses 24-bit/88.2KHz PCM when it converts from DSD to PCM vice the full resolution you get with DSD in native format. Cheers.

Nice idea, getting a 2930 for music-good tip, I didn't know that it had DL3 and usually recommend the 3930 for this purpose.

As to why DL3 improves SQ vs HDMI, it is apparently a jitter issue. You can peruse my "Does DenonLink really matter?" thread for some explanations. I sold my Oppo83SE when I found a deal on a Denon DBPA100 (4010) to match my AVR A100.
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post #16877 of 22054
4/28/12 at 9:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post


I upgraded to the 4311 from a 4308 + AS-EQ1. I conducted a number of tests to see if there was any advantage to keeping the AS-EQ1, given that the 4311 has Sub EQ HT. I determined that there was no reason to keep it. While my tests never revealed that there was a negative impact to bass by leaving the AS-EQ1 in the signal chain, there definitely wasn't an improvement. Like JD suggests, try removing it and re-calibrating to see if there is an improvement. The AS-EQ1 has a good resale value.

I am assuming that the separate AVR settings for two-channel music match the settings you use for multi-channel movies, correct?

Yep. All settings are same for movies and music.

The thing that concerns me is:

When turning EQ off totally, the bass is still thin in 2 channel. Using PURE with no sub gives crazy deep full bass...

On the pioneer sc-57 with it's EQ off and still using sub, the bass was full and deep.

Can't figure why denon with same settings as pioneer with EQ off and using sub and crossing speakers at 80hz sounds so thin...

The SVS was used in both pioneer and denon. And the EQ in the SVS was not touched when using the 2 units...

Guess I will try without SVS in chain, and try the SVS feature to fool the demon mic into thinking there is a perfect sub so no EQ on denon is subs will take place.


On my last denon a-100 before I got the pioneer then re-got the a-100 again. Lol, I had same 2 subs but direct to denon ( did not have the SVS) and used the 2 sub out option.

I got weird sub distance readings between both subs. One was 22 feet and the other was 7 feet. Both subs are equal distance and symmetrical to the MLP.

This gave thin bass like now.. When I manually overwritten the audyssey distance and made both subs the same distance, bass was awesome.

So.

Maybe the SVS is having this same issue?? It does not tell me what each sub distance is, only combined..

Since I have an unfinished basement, I'm sure it's hard for audyssey to work right...

So I'm thinking of y-cording the 2 subs together ( since they are same distance) and pretending I only have 1 sub...

Am I going crazy!!!!
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post #16878 of 22054
4/28/12 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

It can't be the AL24 because that also applies to PCM input signals.

I thought the input signal from a CD (even via Denon Link) was still going to be PCM at 16 bits? From their Glossary.

And from the 4311 Owner's Manual (page 132)

Quote:


AL24 Processing Plus
AL24 Processing for All Channels DENON has further developed its proprietary AL24 Processing, an analog waveform reproduction technology, to support the 192 kHz sampling frequency. AL24 Processing Plus, thoroughly suppresses quantization noise associated with D/A conversion of LPCM signals to reproduce the low- level signals with optimum clarity that will bring out all the delicate nuances of the music. Equipped foe not only front left and right channels but also for the surround left and right, center and subwoofer channels.

Quote:


DENON LINK
DENON LINK is a unique digital, balanced transfer type interface developed by DENON. It offers high speed, high quality transfer of digital audio data with low signal loss. It can be used together with a DENON Blu-ray disc / DVD player equipped with a special DENON LINK connector using a single cable to enable playback with high sound quality. It allows digital transfer of the 192 kHz/24 bit 2-channel digital signals of DVD-Audio discs, PCM multi-channel signals, etc. Full-spec digital transfer of the audio contents of Super Audio CD is possible by connecting a player equipped for DENON LINK 3rd Edition.

Should be easy to test given it has an AL24 light ;-) I don't have one right now or I would give it a try.

Cheers.

P.S. thanks for your FAQ!
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post #16879 of 22054
4/28/12 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by muad'dib View Post

...Guess I will try without SVS in chain...
Sounds like a good plan.

...I got weird sub distance readings between both subs. One was 22 feet and the other was 7 feet. Both subs are equal distance and symmetrical to the MLP. This gave thin bass like now.. When I manually overwritten the audyssey distance and made both subs the same distance, bass was awesome.
This sounds like with the 15' difference, there was phase cancellation. See the last couple pages on the Pro kit thread for more on this. Double check that both subs have all internal EQ bypassed, and any that can't be bypassed is set equally.

...So I'm thinking of y-cording the 2 subs together ( since they are same distance) and pretending I only have 1 sub...
I suggest you run a nice clean non SVS normal XT32 2 sub (one to each sub preout) autosetup.

Am I going crazy!!!!
I'll get back to you on that.

See above.
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post #16880 of 22054
4/28/12 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Nice idea, getting a 2930 for music-good tip, I didn't know that it had DL3 and usually recommend the 3930 for this purpose.

I was waiting for next-gen oppo for multi-channel, but this seems to be the better option when paired with 4311. Is there a reference as to which Denon players support DL3? It may be obvious - is this the third character in the model number?

Thanks much in advance.
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post #16881 of 22054
4/28/12 at 11:37am
^To me, it is anything but obvious. It can be pretty hard to figure out and I know of no source to refer you to. I've even resorted to downloading a model's OM. But certain players were later upgradable by software from DL2 (no MC SACD) to DL3 so that gets even harder. If you happen to find out which models have it, I'll post it in the "Does DenonLink really matter?" thread.

DenonLink is a technical success. It is proprietary, so I'm not surprised it is not well-known outside of Denon circles, especially becasue it is only available on fairly expensive models. I recently discussed this briefly with Kal Rubinson on the "Does DenonLink really matter?" thread. What is surprising is that DL is apparently little-known and little-used even by those with high-level Denon Processors like the 4311 which are DL-capable. This despite the fact that many of them have high-end speakers and appreciate music from an audiophile standpoint.
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post #16882 of 22054
4/28/12 at 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^To me, it is anything but obvious. It can be pretty hard to figure out and I know of no source to refer you to. I've even resorted to downloading a model's OM. But certain players were later upgradable by software from DL2 (no MC SACD) to DL3 so that gets even harder. If you happen to find out which models have it, I'll post it in the "Does DenonLink really matter?" thread.

DenonLink is a technical success. It is proprietary, so I'm not surprised it is not well-known outside of Denon circles, especially becasue it is only available on fairly expensive models. I recently discussed this briefly with Kal Rubinson on the "Does DenonLink really matter?" thread. What is surprising is that DL is apparently little-known and little-used even by those with high-level Denon Processors like the 4311 which are DL-capable. This despite the fact that many of them have high-end speakers and appreciate music from an audiophile standpoint.

When I was looking for a Denon Link 3rd transport I came across the models:

DVD-3910CI
DVD-2930CI
DVD-3930CI

which provided the SACD, DVD-Audio/Video, HDCD, DTS capability. For what I was after the DBP-4010 was overkill as I already had a Sony PS3 and an Oppo BDP-83 for Blu-Ray etc.

Cheers.
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post #16883 of 22054
4/28/12 at 12:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

What is surprising is that DL is apparently little-known and little-used even by those with high-level Denon Processors like the 4311 which are DL-capable. This despite the fact that many of them have high-end speakers and appreciate music from an audiophile standpoint.

DL is little-used because there are so few players (Denon of course) that support it. They have Blu-ray models with it (one @ $4.5K and $2K) and both are about two years behind in features. Basically, the sound quality improvements are not worth the cost of entry and feature trade offs, vs. what you can get for 1/4 of the price via HDMI.

And I used DL3 for several years in the past. It's nice, but no sonic miracle over HDMI.
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post #16884 of 22054
4/28/12 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

I thought the input signal from a CD (even via Denon Link) was still going to be PCM at 16 bits?

You misunderstood my point. You asked if the improvement in audio quality with DL3 was due to AL24. I was saying that the DIFFERENCE cannot be AL24 because it would be in use in both cases. It works on any PCM signal whether you are using DL or HDMI or optical etc. so you cannot attribute the difference to it.
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post #16885 of 22054
4/28/12 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

You misunderstood my point. You asked if the improvement in audio quality with DL3 was due to AL24. I was saying that the DIFFERENCE cannot be AL24 because it would be in use in both cases. It works on any PCM signal whether you are using DL or HDMI or optical etc. so you cannot attribute the difference to it.

Ok, understood. Cheers.
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post #16886 of 22054
4/28/12 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

The sound cards should sound identical via optical.

If you use an RCA analog connection to the AVR, the DAC in your sound card will be doing the conversion. Is it better than the 4311's DAC? I don't know. But you cannot use the Audyssey room correction system with analog sources. So you lose the benefits of MutilEQ XT32 if you use RCA analog.

Is the: Texas Instruments PCM1794 (Burr Brown).

Would it be better? (in stereo, for multichannel I use HDMI)


Thanks!
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post #16887 of 22054
4/28/12 at 5:47pm
What about the rti a9, do you think an external amp would be beneficial?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
An external amp shouldn't be required as the RTia5 and RTia7 speakers are both 8Ω and fairly efficient at 90db and 89db respectively. However, should you decide to add an external amp, doing so will not impact the ability to use Audyssey.
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post #16888 of 22054
4/28/12 at 5:58pm
^^
The RTia9 is also an 8Ω, 90db efficient speaker (as is the RTia5), so no, unless you are in a very large room or listen at well above reference level.
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post #16889 of 22054
4/28/12 at 6:38pm
FYI. The new iOS Denon app is available. Very nice.
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post #16890 of 22054
4/28/12 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjones View Post

For those using A-DSX 11.x: How important, if at all, is timbre matching for the height speakers? I assume that it is not that significant, but but would appreciate your input.

I'd say, not very important. Heights are primarily for of an enveloping sound affect. Mine are matched but seriously, I would never notice nuance with Heights.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK]