The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 564

Thanks for making me aware of this. I found a 2930CI used today and purchased it, I look forward to setting this up. I have several DVD-A and SACD titles, was kind of bummed I wouldn't be able to play them for awhile.

Found a very weird issue... analog audio input "leakage".

DVD analog (sound) input leaks into BD analog input. Only right channel in my case. It's very low in volume, so you have to really crank up the volume to notice it.

Anyone noticed something like that?

^^^

haven't tried it, sorry... i know that many other pieces of equipment i've owned that i could make various things "bleed over" if i tried hard enough (i.e. similar to what you are doing)... for instance, on my av7005, i could make the zones bleed, if i turned up the volume VERY HIGH with no input... and so on...

since the "try hard" scenario isn't anything i'd run into in "real world usage", i ignore it...

ymmv...

Cool! Will be interested in any A/B comparisons you do.

You're welcome-look forward to your report. I've been bring DL to the thread's attention but TKO1 deserves the credit for finding that very affordable option.

Cool, thnx! I added that info to the DL thread.

Sorry but I disagree. After running 11.2 I believe the front 7 channels should be identical as far as amplification and speakers. There is a ton of information coming out of the heights and wides and it isn't just "filler". My original plan was to use an external 7 channel amp for the traditional channels and 4 internal amps for the heights and wides along with very small satellite speakers. (different than the rest of my set up) After my initial listening I swapped out the wides and heights for the identical speakers as the surrounds and I am using the 7 channel amp for all front speakers and internal amps for the surround. It made that much of a difference IMHO.

Agreed. For ex., the Oppo BDP93 ($500) is a feature-rich reliable universal player from a great company, and there's an even less expensive Sony that's reportedly very good too.

I bought the DBP A100 (4010) for more than 1/2 off, with 5 yr warranty, to match my AVR A100 and to test DenonLink. Once satisfied, I sold my Oppo83SE to cover half that upgrade cost and I now have a 1-box solution. I don't necessarily even recommend the 4010, as I don't see any benefit of DL4 on my system. But an inexpensive used DL-equipped Denon player is a nice complement to an inexpensive Bluray player for the audiophile with a DL-equipped processor IMO.

I've climbed fairly high up the the diminishing returns curve and you're right, there's no miracles.

I have a 2930 paired with my 4311. For BR and SD DVD I use the Panasonic BDT210.

You will be very happy with the 2930.

Thanks! I have a Panasonic BDT-320 that will be used for everything else (Netflix and Amazon in 1080p!), the 2930 will only be used for shiny audio disks. Virtually all of my 2 channel collection is now in flac on my network, I'll probably use Squeezebox for this.

I did a My "Take" on the 4311. It is really impressive and I plan to do a full Review on a newer Denon (4520?) this Fall. As much as I love it I still have to complete a couple more Receiver Reviews. I will be selling this new 4311 soon. I do get why this thread and the loyal owners here are so dedicated.

I also have a 2930 (for use with DL3), but it won't play any discs now. This issue started right after expiry of the 1-year warranty.

Maybe some day I will get it repaired.

Mark

I have an intermittent hum coming from my subwoofers that goes away when the unit is powered on. I was wondering if anyone has had to run a ground wire to the case of their 4311 to eliminate hum issues? This suggestion was made to me, as the unit only has a two-pole power cord.

Thanks for any input.

Mark

^^
Likely a moot point for your 2930, but for future purchases, keep a couple of things in mind ... (1) Denon will generally extend the warranty up to about 45 days after the normal warranty expiration, and (2) your credit card provider may extend the warranty 1 year beyond the mfr's warranty expiration (Amex does this for sure).

It's ok to disagree. I just really am not convinced heights in particular need to be perfectly matched. As stated, mine are all Nautilus series tube loaded aluminum across all 11 speakers. I also am quite loony on power all Chanells driven by XPA Emo amps. 3 XPA 1s and two 5s. I am now officially in pre amp mode. This too is not really discernible over partially powering via the 4311. The rear surrounds and heights just IMHO, are additive, not revolutionary. I may sell two XPA 1s but I really like the power of the externals. Besides, who can say they have nearly 400 lbs of good old fashioned ab switching amps/ boat anchors?

Lol. I thought I was the only one. I recently moved to a condo so I had to retire my sub for the sake of my neighbors below. 2.0 aint bad at all with this AVR. Mind you, I have some really nice speakers.....

How do you recommend to mount 5 ft tall, 200 lb speakers as front heights if that's what you have for main R/L? And what if they cost 10-20k/pair?

Sorry but given that some folks splurge on main R/L for listening to music I don't see this as a practical thing to do.

The original question was simply if the heights should be timbre matched. IMO anyone with an astute ear would be able to tell the difference.
In the absolute "perfect" set up using identical speakers would be best.
But as you keenly point out that isn't always practical.
Manufacturers usually have various size speakers with similar drivers. If for instance someone was using a pair of B & W Nautilus speakers as left and rights it wouldn't be practical to mount those speakers as front heights. However it would be possible to use 805's as all your surrounds which then would give you somewhat of a timbre match.
The best thing to do if you have $20K is to set up a completely different rig for 2 channel Ina anothe room...as you will never hear the full potential of those expensive speakers in a home theatre set up.

I guess we keep disagreeing..... Not in a bad way amd yet with similar beliefs.

I don't think one needs a seperate 2 channel system, The core processor here, the 4311 does Stereo quite nicely and why replicate 2 XT32 capable machines? In addition, although I don't have exotic room treatment, my primary viewing/listening room has mostly thick carpeting, soft furniture, lots of throw pillows and blankets and is pretty well set up for sound treatment. I am quite happy with my 803S's for stereo music being processed by the 4311 and amplified externally with stupid powerful XPA-1s. The 4311 excels at fixing less than perfect rooms.

I do agree that it would be good to timbre match the best you can, but again Heights are nice, rear surrounds are barely even worth doing. I would try very hard (if you are going to go to 9.1 or 11.1 to make the Wides match as close as possible to the mains. Wides (as batpig noted) get a major work out. This is why your comment about 805s hits close to home. I use N805s as wides, 803S's as main and a nice matching center. I use SCM1's as rears and the heights are B&W's best matching angled in ceilings. My Surrounds are a regrettable in ceiling CCM80. All of these use nautilus aluminum tweets. The N805's are not the exact match to the 803S's but seriously, I doubt anyone could tell with Avatar blasting at reference. We are talking a different version of crossovers and a slighlt different tweeter housing. Also, my in-ceiling heights are way, way cool and built like tanks. What I note as being an issue is they are a touch more muffled than my stand alone box speakers. No manufacturer can perfectly build a speaker that accomodates all the nuances of a celing cavity. This is why B&W sells in ceiling box cavities.... me thinks.

So..... to try and be helpful and remembering it's just my opinion. It would be preferable (if not highly preferable) to timbre match the whole front stage as you suggest. This I agree 100%..... but if one must compromise, I'd do so on heights and rear surrounds. Spend your currency on Surrounds, Fronts, Center, Wides first. Heck, if you are a movie watcher blow big coin on the center, match all the tweets, and mix within a family of speakers and you will be very happy.

I do not like people who claim room perfection...... So, I do not have it. My surrounds are my weak link and I may never solve this. On the other hand, my room sounds fantastic and I'll accept the flaw.

Thanks to all for your input. I am in the position of not being able to perfectly match the front L/R mains (Klipschorns) to anything else on the front "stage." I suppose someone could "fly" Klipschorns, but not me.

When I bought the Denon (A100) a year ago, I had 7.1 consisting of two pairs of K'horns (all 4 corners of the room), purchased 20 years apart, a Belle Klipsch (dressed up La Scala) plus a pair of Heresy IIIs mounted as side surrounds. Then I added another pair of Heresy IIIs as wides. Then a pair of Klipsch RB-81 IIs for height, mounted at ceiling using Omnimounts. After purchasing the AVR and the wides, I had to cut back on the cost of the heights.

Originally, I was powering everything from the AVR. About a month ago I added Emotivas for all 11 channels and put the Denon into preamp. Even with the highly efficient Klipsch, adding the external amps made quite a bit of difference; system headroom is simply incredible now.

So now the nagging question - do I replace the height RB-81s with another pair of Heresy IIIs? The Heresys are slightly more efficient (2 db), are within the same Klipsch Heritage line as the K'horns, but certainly don't sound the same. Upgrading would likely sound different, but $1700 worth? Only one way to find out, I guess. I suspect that if the 11 channels were discrete rather than derived it would make more difference.

As for timbre matching from front mains to rear surrounds: before I went 7.1 I was using the 4 K'horns in 5.1. The sound of the 20-year apart K'horn pairs was decidedly different. I upgraded the older pair with new crossovers and drivers to match the newer pair. Quite a bit of difference in smoothness of front-to-rear pans. But now, the surrounds are Heresy IIIs mounted on the side walls at ceiling, and the rear K'horns are SBL/R. Info to SBL/R is limited, since there are regretably few 7.1 blu rays.

Anyway, thanks again for the input. If I decide to replace the RB-81s I will post the results. First, tho, the wife has to get her new living room furniture before anything else goes into the HT.

^IME with using quite mis-matched speakers to experiment with 7.1 DSXwides, Audyssey does an impressive job of making it work. I had Dali FR/L and CC, Polk towers as wides and Polk surrounds.

When I obtained the 4 matching Dalis for surr/wide duties (thus timbre-matching everything) it certainly improved the coherence and cohesiveness of the surround bubble. But the SQ improvement was in large part because I wasn't just timbre-matching, but significantly upgrading the speakers, from Polk $1800 total MSRP for 5 speakers total to Dali over $12K total MSRP for 7 speakers (not bragging, I certainly didn't pay that much).

Unfamiliar with Klipsch, and not having tried DSX heights, I can offer zilch specific guidance on this. I think your investment in Pro and multiple subs were very well thought out moves. All one can do is carefully assess the weakest link and try to estimate the yield in SQ improvement when spending the next bundle of HT dollars.

I bought 2 of the denon 2930CI's just to use for DVD-A and SACD discs unfortunately neither of them would load up the DSD layer from the SACD just the RB layer. DVD-A worked fine on one and was an issue with the other. I have seen quite a few reports on laser issues with the 2930/3930 not sure if that was the problem with these. I have since purchased a 3910 which works beautifully with DL3 for SACD/DVD-A.

I think I found the issue.

First off, I took the SVS out of the loop and used the 2 sub outputs on denon a-100 and did the EQ.

Then listening to 2 channel with all speakers to small and 80hz and yes to sub. I still had weak bass.

I then decided to check what distances audyssey set for each sub.

Please note each sub is equal physical distance from main listening spot, and is symmetrical placement ( left sub between center and left speaker, right sub between center and right speaker.)

Turns out left sub was set to 2 feet, and right sub was set to 11.7 feet.

Once I manually changed the left sub to same 11.7 feet, I then got all my full bass back!

Weird but glad I got it going!!

Thought you had said bass sounded fine without Audyssey engaged? The sub distances of 2 and 11.7 would have been used whether Audyssey is engaged or not.

Don't know the subs, but are the phase control switches on both set to 0 degrees? Curious If you could try rerunning the calibration with the 2 foot distance sub set to 180 degree on the phase knob? This cured a similar issue by another poster over on the Audyssey pro kit thread.

You aren't selling yours on Audiogon by chance are you?

No, I am not.

Mark

Sorry, meant to state it sounded good with pure mode, no subs.
Movies seemed fine, but little lacking, not like 2 channel was..

As for phase, both subs are set to 0 degrees and crossovers maxed out.

Both subs are same model/make.

Paradigm pw2200 v2.

Hope this helps

For those interested I officially listed my 4311 here on AVS Classifieds. Don't wait!

Off to the next Review...

I agree with this, I was just hung up on your wording of "identical amplification and speakers". Identical is one of those words like "pregnant".

I am not too concerned about it. I don't use analog inputs even though I wired all my players "just in case". Turns out I like Audyssey XT too much to use Direct/Pure Direct modes, in which case analog inputs have no use.

Just surprised at the various QC issues Denon has. Aside from the original two firmware bugs (Dolby Digital drop-outs and blue rain), one of my previous units had a loud hum/noise on one of channels.

i was listening to 4311 airplay when all of a sudden it disappeared from the speaker list. usually, a reboot of the itune and/or the unit fixes the issue...since then, i have hard reset the microP, and the network card and still i don't seem to be able to connect it to the network. the mac address has also disappeared. any suggestions will be appreciated.

Happens to me sometimes. Try unplugging Denon for 5 seconds and restart itunes.