The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 578

^Hi, Sneill, welcome. Such things are taken as articles of faith prior to the first Audyssey initiation. As you are admitted to higher levels more will be revealed...
Well, OK-as you are experienced with ARC, take a look at the Audyssey material linked here, you'll likely pick up some tips, but I imagine it's similar to ARC setup. I achieved many good calibrations with a tripod, and a tripod is indeed recommended as inexpensive, much-better-than-holding-the-mic-or-putting-it-on-a-pillow, and appropriate for the newbie, not super serious about HT type of user. But the problem with camera tripods is proper mic placement and isolation from vibrations. By limiting some common acl technique errors, a proper mic stand, boom and mic adapter may well improve the quality of the cal. It also offers much better ease of use, as many of us end up doing, ummm...several calibrations.

1. Getting the mic in the when seated between your ears spot in MLP. I used to shorten one leg and place it on the seat, cushioned by foam rubber to avoid transfer of vibration from the seat. Wiith a boom, you just swing it around into various positions.

2. Keeping the mic pointed straight up, dealing with 3 legs. Arrgh...

3. If you are not on padded carpet, a tripod can pick up vibration from the floor. A mic stand should have rubber isolation feet.

4. Varying the height by an inch up and down is much easier with a boom. This technique, is a secret of the third level Audyssey initiation. As is a tight mic grouping around MLP for those of us who care only about MLP. Shhhh...

^Sneill, we'll be interested in your comparison of ARC/XT32. Sorry for your Anthem problems-HDMI handshake issues?

As a total noob to 4311CI (not even hooked up yet) that would be my question also.

My system will be an irregular 5.1, and there will be just two, very well spacially defined sitting/listening positions (two armchairs, with a coffee table between them).

Do I need to do all eight measurements in spaces that nobody will ever be sitting, in order to get the best results in the two sitting positions that are important to me?

I have a very good tripod and can mount the mic on it if necessary.

^^
Yup ... ear height at the coffee table would be the main listening position #1 and then take the remaining 7 positions within a 3' radius of that #1 mic position (so you'll likely get to both seats as well).

Best to run all 8 tests even if it's a close pattern
Plus your going to have a bunch of updates for that avr
Get those first

There is a detailed section on mic placements in the material from the Audyssey thread I supplied a link to. For mic pattern recommendations specific to your room, consider posting some pics on the Audyssey thread. Pattern depends on how close the seats are to the back wall, if you really want to split the difference between two seats, etc. You can only optimize one spot for exact timing and ch levels. My advice: if you are the one who cares most about SQ, pick a seat as your seat and make that MLP. Ideally it should be equidistant from FR/L. Sample the area 2-3' around your seat and basically forget about any other seat. It's best not to think in terms of actual seating positions other than MLP. It'll still sound good in the cheap seats.

Of course passive biamping within an AVR doesn't double the power. However, it does apportion a greater share of the amps' total power to the front R/L speakers, which could be beneficial with much multichannel content (not to mention two-channel content).


I don't disagree with what you're saying. However, plenty of knowledgeable audio people claimed (and some still claim) that a feature like active room correction does more harm than good. The benefits of Audyssey in its early days were indeed questionable at best, but with enough R&D time and processing improvements, Audyssey has now made XT32, which nearly everyone in this thread praises. I don't see any technical reason why ACTIVE biamping within AVRs couldn't progress along a similar development path, eventually producing beneficial, even outstanding, results.


I grasp the fundamentals quite well, thank you. But if anyone can find the link mentioned, I'd be happy to read it.

:mad
Is it a brick?
Thought it was too good of a price to be true.
Tried to run audessey set up.
First try said no suurounds or surround backs.Checked connections banana plugs etc.,even though I've never had a problem with speakers with my previous unit.
2nd try got through 3rd listening position.4th position had same message,no surrounds.
Tried channel level,no test tones from surrounds or back surrounds.
Plugged surrounds into front left speaker connection and they work??
If it needs repair that won't happen,its going back.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance,Len

Forgot to mention that upon startup I get a pop from the speakers,indigenous to the unit?

Have you trried a microprocessor reset??? Get all your settings to factory default settings and start over-page 138, in the manual

No - I get a relay click when the unit un-mutes after turn on, but nothing through the speakers.

Who did you buy it from?

Do a processor reset, make sure you are on zone 1 and if it still doesn't detect the surround speakers, contact who you bought it from and return it as DOA.

One thing to check - there is a screen to show the configured/installed speaker channels. Does that show the surrounds as connected?

While active biamping/triamping might technically be possible in an avr, any "global" program such as this would require detailed specs of the speakers being used with the avr. That's thousands of designs. I guess a database could be built for this purpose a la Harmony hex codes but it doesn't seem at all likely given the complexity.

Alternatively, one could just buy a fully baked dsp-tailored active loudspeaker and use the avr as a preamp.

Chris

^^^

Triamping or Tryamping?

my feeling is that this type of "active biamping" is such a niche feature for high-end audiophiles that some half-baked "one size fits all" solution built into an AVR isn't going to cut it . The people who are that interested in this option are also likely not to want to use the internal amps built into a receiver. Go from the pre-outs to whatever fancy external active crossover/amp situation you want.

the "passive bi-amping" feature of AVR's is already sufficient to serve as a marketing buzz-phrase and the addition of a true "active" will be unlikely to move the needle and make it worth it to mfgr's. IMHO not only is this feature unlikely to appear, but the people who would want to use it probably wouldn't want it in the receiver anyway.

The first manufacturer that builds an AVR, eg. like a Denon 4311, with 10 to 18 channels of amplification with the ability to actively biamp and the addition of an onboard miniDSP has an instant preorder from me.

Well now I'm starting to get a little aggravated! I have been listening to music for several hours with Audyssey on. A short while ago I checked to see if Audyssey Flat was selected and it was. I just was trying to see how it would sound with the sub off and the mains set to large. I then looked at the 4311's display and the Audyssey logo is gone! I checked the Audyssey setting with the MultEQ button on the remote and once again my only options are Manual and Off. Then I put all the speakers setting to where they were and did an Audyssey restore in the menu. This is not good if I have to keep doing an eight position Audyssey calibration to get Audyssey back. Is there a way to save the Audyssey calibration so that I can recall it if something like this happens again? The one thing I noticed when I put my plasma back on and the Oppo logo was orange and not blue. What is going on here? To say I'm frustrated is a huge understatement. This 4311 might be going back to BB real quick! Help!!!!

Bill

^^ Bill, sounds like you'll need a microprocessor reset + rerun Audyssey.

Just a further comment on my 4311, since I've lived with it a couple of weeks. Luckily no issues with sound or operation. However, I have to say I'm a bit let down by the build quality. With the plastic front, and rather wiggly Volume/Selector knobs, it's definitely a notch or two down from my AVP and AVR-5800. Not sure why I was expecting the same quality. Heck, it did retail for >$2K! Unless you have another/older Denon to compare to, the build quality may seem just fine. I dunno, just doesn't have that "tank" quality like the AVR-5800. Was hoping for the same, just smaller in size.

Yes, there is. You can save the config.dat file to a PC using the Web Control feature (SAVE) p. 70 and LOAD it back when needed, although you are better served trying to troubleshoot why the Audyssey settings were lost in the first place. Did you lose power at any point? Were your other settings still in place?

Sam,

Thanks. But the question is why have I lost Audyssey twice in the short time I've owned the 4311? I can do a microprocessor reset and redo Audyssey but will it keep happening? Is there some setting in the 4311's menu that I am activating that is deleted the Audyssey calibration? If there is I'd like to know what it is so I do not keep doing it. Very frustrating as I do not have the time and the house to myself often to keep doing this.

Bill

jd,

I just checked all my settings in Audyssey and they are all in place. When I went to restore Audyssey the little selection dot next to Yes or No (which ever you chose) is not there. I did not lose power. Is there an actual button on the remote or setting in the menu that disables Audyssey? Thanks!

Bill

^^
Yes. The button on the remote (p. 89) will cycle through the various settings including OFF, however, if all you get is MANUAL and OFF it means the Audyssey settings are no longer in memory (which is what you experienced). Try the micro reset (p. 138) as SamS suggested and see if that resolves the issue. Run AUTO SETUP again and use Web Control to SAVE the file.

The reason JD has asked whether you lost power is because there is a bug that we are researching. On occasion, when power is cut from the 4311 (either an accidental power loss, or the user unplugging the AVR for some reason), the 4311 will revert to a previous configuration. In your case, the "previous configuration" is no Audyssey.

While this bug is unfortunate, we can guard against the inconvenience by doing a network save, as JD describes. The network save should become a routine action upon successfully completing a calibration, because you never know when you might lose power.

Both JD and I have reported this bug to Denon, but unfortunately they have not favored us with a response yet.

Ciao,
If the reduce offset to lower sounds from surrounds, but wish the bass to remain, should options for directions be to set the offset to 5 {to reduce surrounds} and raise sub trims by 5db to put bass back? (dual sub) 5db each or 2.5db each?

They're acknowledging that bi-amping with low level active crossovers can be a superior approach to the passive crossover in their speaker.

IMHO, it just isn't fair to expect the build quality of a $2100 MSRP receiver to compare to a $3800 MSRP receiver (AVR-5800) or especially a $15,000 combo (AVP + POA) (one has to include an amp with the AVP in order to compare apples to apples as far as functionality goes). Having the AVP / POA in my main system and the 4311 in my secondary system leaves me with absolutely no regrets as the 4311 does the job it's supposed to do just fine. My thought was that the 4311 is actually built pretty well overall for a $2100 receiver and I'd rather have them sacrifice a bit on the exterior rather than cut too many corners inside where it really matters.

I think AustinJerry (above) provides for the best theory about why this happened.


I knew some of the AVR-3xxx series and below built in China by Inkel/Sherwood would be of lesser quality. I also owned the AVR-4806CI, and I do realize that MSRP was 2X that of the 4311CI. I was just thinking it'd be a tad closer to the level of those older units, being that it was built by Denon Japan.

If my unit holds up as well as my previous three or four Denons, I'm sure I'll be quite satisfied for many years.

Jerry,

Thanks for your thoughts. I did another calibration (8 position) and it saved as it should then when I got out of the menu the Audyssey icon was not on the display. I did this before it was mentioned to do a micro processor reset. So I did the reset and did another calibration. This time it saved fine and the Audyssey icon was on the display. Then went into the manual settings to set the crossovers to 80Hz. When I got out of the menu the Audyssey icon was GONE.

So it looks like I have a bad unit. I'm not much of a computer person and I understand that one should save the calibration. But I really don't want to be constantly reapplying the Audyssey settings everytime it dumps the calibration. I have a call into BB to see about exchanging the 4311 for another one. I hope they have one left in stock.

Bill

You bring up a good point from the marketing standpoint. It would probably only be feasible on flagship models where the extra cost would be a smaller percentage of the overall cost compared to a 1-2k AVR.

However, I would point out that one of the biggest benefits of active multi-amping is the increase in speaker efficiency since we avoid the IR^^2 losses in the passive crossover network. Looked at differently, this is equivalent to increasing the power of the AVR's amplifier modules "for free". The amount of insertion loss depends on several factors, but it's possible at some frequencies it could be from 1-3 dB. An AVR rated at 140 WPC becomes one that "in effect", with that same speaker system, behaves like a 200-300 WPC amp. I'm sure you guys have already discussed the other benefits so I won't belabor the point.

Now, I suspect if AVR OEMs were able to effectively market the increased efficiency perhaps there would be more consumers willing to pay for it. In just about any way you look at it other than cost, multi-amping with low level digital filtering is a much more elegant solution, technically.

if that was indeed true, they would make that passive xover a helluva lot easier to remove...