or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK]
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 579

post #17341 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Beale View Post

Ciao,
If the reduce offset to lower sounds from surrounds, but wish the bass to remain, should options for directions be to set the offset to 5 {to reduce surrounds} and raise sub trims by 5db to put bass back? (dual sub) 5db each or 2.5db each?

IME, the right amount of offset varies with the recording and the level you're listening. I've found it's rather tiresome to try to improve the overall SQ, but here's what I've done.

To deal with the somewhat complex situation of tweaking bass and surrounds differentially that you mention, I've tried a few permutations, all of which are pure preference-so YMMV.

The best but most complex solution IMO is to use DEQ with the offset set to where I want it for bass, then use the fader (ch level button on remote pulls up OSD) to turn down the surrounds. Remember to reset the ch trims when done.

Sometimes I skip DEQ entirely and just use the tone control to increase bass. Remember to turn Tone Control off when done, or when you have the same source and mode playing, and don't turn on DEQ, the 4311 will apply that bass tone setting.

Sometimes I skip DEQ entirely and simply increase sub ch trims for more bass. Remember to turn them back down when done.

Sometimes I use the fader to trim up or down surrounds regardless of whether DEQ is on.

But generally speaking when doing serious listening to well recorded material (and that's pretty much what I do ) I just turn it up till it sounds really good but not too loud. That's usually around 75-80dB. No EQ tweaks to set and thus no EQ tweaks to unset.
post #17342 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

...I really don't want to be constantly reapplying the Audyssey settings everytime it dumps the calibration. I have a call into BB to see about exchanging the 4311 for another one. I hope they have one left in stock. Bill

So sorry you're having so much trouble. If the m/p reset didn't fix it, it's time for a replacement unit. If that store doesn't have one, they should be able to get you one from another store or the regional warehouse.

IIRC, there are some things one can do to inadvertantly lose Audyssey-but I don't think you're doing it. One can change the amp assign for ex., or add speakers. And one can actually delete Audyssey from the MultEQ button choices (p100).
post #17343 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post


Jerry,

Thanks for your thoughts. I did another calibration (8 position) and it saved as it should then when I got out of the menu the Audyssey icon was not on the display. I did this before it was mentioned to do a micro processor reset. So I did the reset and did another calibration. This time it saved fine and the Audyssey icon was on the display. Then went into the manual settings to set the crossovers to 80Hz. When I got out of the menu the Audyssey icon was GONE.

Bill

Did you move the crossover UP to 80 or DOWN to 80?
post #17344 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by timofree View Post

Did you move the crossover UP to 80 or DOWN to 80?

Hi Tim. That's not relevant to the problem under discussion as that would not disable Audyssey either way. However, knowing Bill has very capable Salk Song towers and Song Center, it must've been up.
post #17345 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda View Post

While active biamping/triamping might technically be possible in an avr, any "global" program such as this would require detailed specs of the speakers being used with the avr. That's thousands of designs. I guess a database could be built for this purpose a la Harmony hex codes but it doesn't seem at all likely given the complexity.

Chris

Not necessarily. There are already products out there that make nearfield measurements of speaker drivers to determine crossover frequencies to be automatically set by digital filters. See DEQX.
post #17346 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

So sorry you're having so much trouble. If the m/p reset didn't fix it, it's time for a replacement unit. If that store doesn't have one, they should be able to get you one from another store or the regional warehouse.

IIRC, there are some things one can do to inadvertantly lose Audyssey-but I don't think you're doing it. One can change the amp assign for ex., or add speakers. And one can actually delete Audyssey from the MultEQ button choices (p100).

SoM,

I did go in and change the amp assign to the preamp mode after running Audyssey the last time. Maybe that is the problem. Although it did dump twice with no setting changes. So should one chose the preamp mode before running Audyssey so that it isn't deleted? All the settings from the calibration are still there but Audyssey is off with no way to reactivate it. Thanks for your help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by timofree View Post

Did you move the crossover UP to 80 or DOWN to 80?

Tim,

I moved the crossovers up to 80Hz from 60hz for the fronts and to 80Hz from 40Hz for the center. I assumed one could change the crossovers without deactivating Audyssey.

Bill
post #17347 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

if that was indeed true, they would make that passive xover a helluva lot easier to remove...

That's why I said "can be" instead of "is".
post #17348 of 23136
Proud new owner here with a few questions. First one is it possible to run a 5.1 with FLR bi-amped, it does sound better on my speakers, and a 2 channel zone 2? I cant seem to make it work in amp assign.
post #17349 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post


Hi Tim. That's not relevant to the problem under discussion as that would not disable Audyssey either way. However, knowing Bill has very capable Salk Song towers and Song Center, it must've been up.

Max, over in the Audyssey thread, said that if Bill happened to lower any of the crossovers, Audyssey would disengage.
post #17350 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

SoM,

I did go in and change the amp assign to the preamp mode after running Audyssey the last time. Maybe that is the problem. Although it did dump twice with no setting changes. So should one chose the preamp mode after running Audyssey so that it isn't deleted? All the settings from the calibration are still there but Audyssey is off with no way to reactivate it. Thanks for your help!



Tim,

I moved the crossovers up to 80Hz from 60hz for the fronts and to 80Hz from 40Hz for the center. I assumed one could change the crossovers without deactivating Audyssey.

Bill

Changing the preamp mode will make Audyssey unavailable until you change it back to the mode it was in when you ran Audyssey. I found this out while trying to turn all internal amps off to see how much cooler the unit could run.

Bill
post #17351 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

IIRC, there are some things one can do to inadvertantly lose Audyssey-but I don't think you're doing it. One can change the amp assign for ex., or add speakers. And one can actually delete Audyssey from the MultEQ button choices (p100).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfattbill View Post

Changing the preamp mode will make Audyssey unavailable until you change it back to the mode it was in when you ran Audyssey. I found this out while trying to turn all internal amps off to see how much cooler the unit could run.

Bill

SoM and Bill,

You guys are awesome! I just set the amp assignment back to the original setting and viola I have all my Audyssey settings back. Thank you both for your help as I would have never have figured that one out.

Bill
post #17352 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

SoM and Bill,

You guys are awesome! I just set the amp assignment back to the original setting and viola I have all my Audyssey settings back. Thank you both for your help as I would have never have figured that one out.

Bill

That is great to hear.

Bill
post #17353 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfattbill View Post

That is great to hear.

Bill

It sure is, thanks again!

Bill
post #17354 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I did go in and change the amp assign to the preamp mode after running Audyssey the last time. Maybe that is the problem. Although it did dump twice with no setting changes. So should one chose the preamp mode before running Audyssey so that it isn't deleted?

Yes. An Audyssey configuration with the powered speakers is different from one when in preamp mode.
post #17355 of 23136
^^

Why is that jd? I'm struggling to figure out which settings would change to affect the outcome, since it's all derived from speaker tones anyway.

Thanks.
post #17356 of 23136
^^
Anytime you "add" additional speaker inputs not previously EQ'd by Audyssey you change the configuration and Audyssey will disengage and require you to rerun AUTO SETUP. As preamp mode shuts the signal to the speaker posts, it in effect, cancels the current Audyssey setup and therefore disengages until you run AUTO SETUP again with the new speaker inputs from the external amps.
post #17357 of 23136
Thanks, got it. Somehow I got the impression from your statement that the audyssey configuration would indeed be different if in preamp mode (all else being equal).
post #17358 of 23136
^^
It IS different ... anytime you add or remove an external amp you should rerun AUTO SETUP again.
post #17359 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by timofree View Post

Max, over in the Audyssey thread, said that if Bill happened to lower any of the crossovers, Audyssey would disengage.

Tim, unfortunately there are several inaccuracies in his post and that is one of them. These are infernally complex machines.
post #17360 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Tim, unfortunately there are several inaccuracies in his post and that is one of them. These are infernally complex machines.

Yes on all accounts

Bill
post #17361 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

SoM and Bill,
You guys are awesome! I just set the amp assignment back to the original setting and viola I have all my Audyssey settings back. Thank you both for your help as I would have never have figured that one out.Bill

You're welcome, glad that fixed it. I discovered this quirk when doing A/B of NL Mode vs Preamp Mode to hear whether there was any SQ improvement in Preamp Mode, as posted here. We'll be interested in your impressions.

Hmmm...so no explanation of the 2 prior loss of Audyssey incidents? Is this a NIB unit? Did you ever do the m/p reset?
post #17362 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by timofree View Post

Max, over in the Audyssey thread, said that if Bill happened to lower any of the crossovers, Audyssey would disengage.

As SOM notes, this would have no impact on the Audyssey filters as Audyssey doesn't set the crossovers, rather the AVR sets the crossovers. Note that if you do change any of the original AUTO SETUP settings (eg. crossover, speaker level, speaker distance, LARGE/SMALL) the box around Audyssey MultEQ XT on the front panel display will disappear to let you know that the original AUTO SETUP settings have been modified.
post #17363 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by russ_777 View Post

Not necessarily. There are already products out there that make nearfield measurements of speaker drivers to determine crossover frequencies to be automatically set by digital filters. See DEQX.

True. It would be better to accurately measure each driver's response instead of relying on assumed responses.

However, using DEQX as an example, the cost and complexity go through the roof which puts us squarely back in the "unlikely" scenario camp wrt to avrs. You'd certainly want the good Earthworks mic which is an add-on. Then you need one DEQX box with active XO option for each speaker. Once you factor in the cost of the flagship avr itself you are in the big leagues cost-wise, no?

I would be very curious to know what, if any differences there would be in active crossovers calculated for a Salk Soundscape by DEQX vs. the same designed by Dennis Murphy. Would there be design choices and/or tradeoffs or is it simply mathematical calculation?

Chris
post #17364 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

IME, the right amount of offset varies with the recording and the level you're listening. I've found it's rather tiresome to try to improve the overall SQ, but here's what I've done.

To deal with the somewhat complex situation of tweaking bass and surrounds differentially that you mention, I've tried a few permutations, all of which are pure preference-so YMMV.

The best but most complex solution IMO is to use DEQ with the offset set to where I want it for bass, then use the fader (ch level button on remote pulls up OSD) to turn down the surrounds. Remember to reset the ch trims when done.

Sometimes I skip DEQ entirely and just use the tone control to increase bass. Remember to turn Tone Control off when done, or when you have the same source and mode playing, and don't turn on DEQ, the 4311 will apply that bass tone setting.

Sometimes I skip DEQ entirely and simply increase sub ch trims for more bass. Remember to turn them back down when done.

Sometimes I use the fader to trim up or down surrounds regardless of whether DEQ is on.

But generally speaking when doing serious listening to well recorded material (and that's pretty much what I do ) I just turn it up till it sounds really good but not too loud. That's usually around 75-80dB. No EQ tweaks to set and thus no EQ tweaks to unset.

Wonderful, thks I will try this settings. Will by using 5 offset and raise subs trims work? for sure set and forget for me is best as I sit close to rears and 90z% movie watching. Ciao
post #17365 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Beale View Post

Wonderful, thks I will try this settings. Will by using 5 offset and raise subs trims work? for sure set and forget for me is best as I sit close to rears and 90z% movie watching. Ciao

Yes, as I recently mentioned, some very sophisticated film guys like FilmMixer prefer a 5 offset on DEQ for film. Try that on some familiar scenes. If you feel the bass is lacking, then start tweaking the subs up evenly. Lots of folks have their subs tweaked up a bit. Sometimes that's because there are some uncorrected dips/nulls in the bass, making it sound a bit weak- but unless you are inspired to measure and correct that, it's fine to tweak the subs to preference-and the only way to know what you'll like best is to experiment.

By "rears" do you mean surr rears or (side) surrounds? Basically it really shouldn't matter that you sit close as the levels are set for all chs to match at MLP=mic pos #1. Again, there may be something about the placement and type of speaker that can be improved, but unless you want to delve into that issue, just tweak to your preference.

For film I find DEQ uncannily accurate and so I use no offset. My subs are so dialed in by the Audyssey Pro calibration, I just leave them set to the Audyssey levels. Though if I'm in the mood for a movie which calls for full-tilt hold-unto-your-seat LFE, the subs have an internal "Action Film" mode which releases the servo control which makes them so tight and accurate for music, boosts the ULF and trims the Vol up. Wheeee!
post #17366 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post


Tim, unfortunately there are several inaccuracies in his post and that is one of them. These are infernally complex machines.

Thanks. I should have tested it first, instead of forwarding erroneous information. Instead, I assumed...
My apologies.
post #17367 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Yes, as I recently mentioned, some very sophisticated film guys like FilmMixer prefer a 5 offset on DEQ for film. Try that on some familiar scenes. If you feel the bass is lacking, then start tweaking the subs up evenly. Lots of folks have their subs tweaked up a bit. Sometimes that's because there are some uncorrected dips/nulls in the bass, making it sound a bit weak- but unless you are inspired to measure and correct that, it's fine to tweak the subs to preference-and the only way to know what you'll like best is to experiment.

By "rears" do you mean surr rears or (side) surrounds? Basically it really shouldn't matter that you sit close as the levels are set for all chs to match at MLP=mic pos #1. Again, there may be something about the placement and type of speaker that can be improved, but unless you want to delve into that issue, just tweak to your preference.

For film I find DEQ uncannily accurate and so I use no offset. My subs are so dialed in by the Audyssey Pro calibration, I just leave them set to the Audyssey levels. Though if I'm in the mood for a movie which calls for full-tilt hold-unto-your-seat LFE, the subs have an internal "Action Film" mode which releases the servo control which makes them so tight and accurate for music, boosts the ULF and trims the Vol up. Wheeee!

Ja ja ja your sounds better set than for how mine is set for sure. Reason rears are loud is this, I set audyssey mic pos1 in centre of triangle, but I sometime leave my chair against back wall, so rears sound loud (as i closer) so I like to reduce rear sound but leave rest as is, when I set offset 5 I lose bass, but rear sound perfect (even in mic pos2) so I like offset 5 but loseese bass. Upping each sub 2.5 (=5) should bring it back to normal? Or up by 5 each?
Ciao
post #17368 of 23136
^timofree, no need to apologize as you were simply sincerely trying to help troubleshoot-but very gracious of you nonetheless. I certainly have my share of erroneous posts along the way (thankfully corrected by batpig and jdsmoothie ), as it is hard to stay abreast of Denon arcana, evolving features and implementations. I will also say that dj's post had some compelling internal logic. Unfortunately the premise was flawed, but he is a gentleman as well.
post #17369 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Beale View Post

...Upping each sub 2.5 (=5) should bring it back to normal? Or up by 5 each?
Ciao

As I've said, try different levels-there is no way for anyone to know what you'll like best. Out of MLP is no place I wanna be, especially "Up against the wall, MF", as we used to say back in the day. There may be a null there affecting your bass.
post #17370 of 23136
As it turns out, I have come to the conclusion that my 4311/XT32 setup also suffers from the "large room brightness" (or some other cause) after all. I am going to borrow a Pro kit from a friend here and work on mine in a few weeks when I have some time. Fortunately, it will only cost me the receiver license ($150) so it's not a big deal.

It's always something
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK]