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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 596

post #17851 of 21928
6/7/12 at 7:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Bill, just to clarify, you are getting DSD decoding in the 4311, regardless of whether you are in Direct Mode. because you have set the Oppo to send DSD and the Oppo detects that the AVR will acccept DSD. BTW, my level-matched comparisons between send DSD vs PCM from Oppo to Denon have consistently revealed a decided SQ improvement sending DSD.

SoM,

Thanks for that information and that you find DSD to be the best setting. I'm going to do some more comparisons tomorrow. I want to see which will sound best in my room DSD Direct or Stereo with Audyssey for 2CH SACDs.

Bill

For your information Bill, according to Bob Pariseau (who IMO is the most knowledgeable and helpful poster in the Oppo 93 thread) on SACD playback the 93 's LFE channel is output at a different level depending on whether you let the Oppo decode it (sending it PCM to your AVR) or let your AVR decode it (DSD Direct). IOW the bass management in the 93 is different in the two cases. Pretty sure if the 93 decodes it (versus the AVR) the LFE channel is 10db louder. I noticed and verified this with my set up (93 to 4311) about a year and a half ago and I let the 93 decode DSD since this seems to properly match up with playback of other 5.1 material in the LFE (.1) channel. Now it's possible Oppo has changed this in a firmware update since then but I can't recall mention of this and I haven't gone back and re-checked it anytime recently. You might query Bob on this point on the 93 thread and check it yourself on your system.
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post #17852 of 21928
6/7/12 at 8:04am
Interesting. The SQ difference I heard between PCM and DSD bitstream was small quantitatively but distinct qualitatively and did not involve bass at all; it was all in fine detail/imaging/soundstage. But I tested only the Oppo BDP83 and later the 83SE; I never noticed any 10dB LFE anomaly with those models.

I had the 93 only briefly and compared it to the 83SE only irt analog and sending DSD. I could hear no difference between any of them sending DSD, just for analog output.

Then I discovered that all music (including sending DSD) via DenonLink beat out the Oppos irt providing a considerably bigger improvement in music SQ along the same lines qualitatively .
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post #17853 of 21928
6/7/12 at 8:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceTBC View Post

For your information Bill, according to Bob Pariseau (who IMO is the most knowledgeable and helpful poster in the Oppo 93 thread) on SACD playback the 93 's LFE channel is output at a different level depending on whether you let the Oppo decode it (sending it PCM to your AVR) or let your AVR decode it (DSD Direct). IOW the bass management in the 93 is different in the two cases. Pretty sure if the 93 decodes it (versus the AVR) the LFE channel is 10db louder. I noticed and verified this with my set up (93 to 4311) about a year and a half ago and I let the 93 decode DSD since this seems to properly match up with playback of other 5.1 material in the LFE (.1) channel. Now it's possible Oppo has changed this in a firmware update since then but I can't recall mention of this and I haven't gone back and re-checked it anytime recently. You might query Bob on this point on the 93 thread and check it yourself on your system.

IceTBC,

Thanks for posting that information smile.gif. I agree that Bob is one of the most knowledgable and helpful members on AVS. I have only been doing comparisons with 2CH SACDs so no LFE is in play. I listened to Patricia Barbers Cafe' Blue SACD earlier this morning and switched between DSD Direct and Stereo with Audyssey enabled. I found that in my system that I preferred the DSD Direct setting. I found that the sound of the cymbals, PB's vocals and piano sounded more natural with DSD Direct. The slight bass boominess I heard testerday with another SACD (that I can not recall) was I believe more related to the recording (acoustic bass in the left speaker). Listening to several other jazz SACDs this morning the bass seems well focused with my SongTowers in full range. I will most definitely be using Audyssey when listening to MCH SACDs as that is where I find XT32 shines smile.gif.

Bill
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post #17854 of 21928
6/7/12 at 8:32am
just one comment, then i'll stay out of this... smile.gif

nobody has done a "true" level matched comparison, unless the methodology that was described earlier in this thread has changed...

back under my rock...
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post #17855 of 21928
6/7/12 at 8:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

just one comment, then i'll stay out of this... smile.gif
nobody has done a "true" level matched comparison, unless the methodology that was described earlier in this thread has changed...
back under my rock...

Chris,

You are 100% correct smile.gif. I found that when switching between the two that DSD Direct was a bit louder. I did my best to match them (by ear redface.gif) by lowering the volume when switching from Stereo to DSD Direct. This method is far from scientific but I felt even with the DSD Direct volume purposely lower I still found it a bit more accurate. The differences are not earth shattering by no means but I did notice them.

Bill
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post #17856 of 21928
6/7/12 at 10:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Chris,
You are 100% correct smile.gif. I found that when switching between the two that DSD Direct was a bit louder. I did my best to match them (by ear redface.gif) by lowering the volume when switching from Stereo to DSD Direct. This method is far from scientific but I felt even with the DSD Direct volume purposely lower I still found it a bit more accurate. The differences are not earth shattering by no means but I did notice them.
Bill

Interesting but I virtually never run anything in Direct or Stereo mode, except as a curiosity for a few seconds - I have an oppo 93. Direct mode for me is virtually unlistenable because there is no room correction while stereo mode pales in comparison to 9.2 or 11.2, but then audio is a matter of preference. Besides, I have already boosted the subs by -6dB from the Audyssey XT32 calibration level.
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post #17857 of 21928
6/7/12 at 10:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Interesting. The SQ difference I heard between PCM and DSD bitstream was small quantitatively but distinct qualitatively and did not involve bass at all; it was all in fine detail/imaging/soundstage. But I tested only the Oppo BDP83 and later the 83SE; I never noticed any 10dB LFE anomaly with those models.
I had the 93 only briefly and compared it to the 83SE only irt analog and sending DSD. I could hear no difference between any of them sending DSD, just for analog output.
Then I discovered that all music (including sending DSD) via DenonLink beat out the Oppos irt providing a considerably bigger improvement in music SQ along the same lines qualitatively .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Chris,
You are 100% correct smile.gif. I found that when switching between the two that DSD Direct was a bit louder. I did my best to match them (by ear redface.gif) by lowering the volume when switching from Stereo to DSD Direct. This method is far from scientific but I felt even with the DSD Direct volume purposely lower I still found it a bit more accurate. The differences are not earth shattering by no means but I did notice them.
Bill

This is my experience as well, although it was impossible to execute an immediate A/B, blind or otherwise "acceptable" test methodology. I also did not pay attention to bass but I think I would have noticed this deviation. While purely by memory, I preferred DL by a margin suitable enough to implement this as my transport mechanism.
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post #17858 of 21928
6/7/12 at 11:01am
Are the 4311 serial numbers typically stamped/printed on the back panel? On mine, the number is printed on white material (paper?) and laminated to the back panel. Seems odd.
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post #17859 of 21928
6/7/12 at 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwm2 View Post

Are the 4311 serial numbers typically stamped/printed on the back panel? On mine, the number is printed on white material (paper?) and laminated to the back panel. Seems odd.

Yes. I would immediately call EE and have them exchange it as you could have warranty issues if you ever needed to get it repaired. eek.gif

EE doesn't generally sell refurbs, but this one may have slipped through the cracks. EE should pay shipping both ways so there is no additional charge to you other than additional delay in having your new AVR setup.

Edit: Apparently it's been done this way for awhile now, so no worries.
Edited by jdsmoothie - 6/10/12 at 2:35am
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post #17860 of 21928
6/7/12 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

just one comment, then i'll stay out of this... smile.gif
nobody has done a "true" level matched comparison, unless the methodology that was described earlier in this thread has changed...
back under my rock...

Chris,

You are 100% correct smile.gif. I found that when switching between the two that DSD Direct was a bit louder. I did my best to match them (by ear redface.gif) by lowering the volume when switching from Stereo to DSD Direct. This method is far from scientific but I felt even with the DSD Direct volume purposely lower I still found it a bit more accurate. The differences are not earth shattering by no means but I did notice them.

Bill

BTW Bill I went back and re-read some of your recent posts regarding SACD and DSD Direct from the player. You posted a day or two ago that DSD Direct from the player disables Audyssey in the 4311. That's not correct as far as I know and see. When I just checked playing a SACD using DSD Direct to my 4311 Audyssey processing is still in effect. Given that fact it will likely be difficult to discern a difference in letting your player do the DSD decoding or the 4311. Not saying one can't but I know when I tried to tell a difference some time back I was unable to. Unless you're running analog cables to compare to HDMI/Audyssey.
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post #17861 of 21928
6/7/12 at 11:55am
guys, see page 29 of your manual...

if you feed the avr dsd and you are in "direct" mode, it will do a dsd to analog conversion.... in this case, it can't apply audyssey, as audyssey has to be applied to a pcm stream...

if you aren't in "direct" mode, it will convert the dsd to pcm, apply processing, and then convert the pcm to analog....
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post #17862 of 21928
6/7/12 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

IceTBC,
Thanks for posting that information smile.gif. I agree that Bob is one of the most knowledgable and helpful members on AVS. I have only been doing comparisons with 2CH SACDs so no LFE is in play. I listened to Patricia Barbers Cafe' Blue SACD earlier this morning and switched between DSD Direct and Stereo with Audyssey enabled. I found that in my system that I preferred the DSD Direct setting. I found that the sound of the cymbals, PB's vocals and piano sounded more natural with DSD Direct. The slight bass boominess I heard testerday with another SACD (that I can not recall) was I believe more related to the recording (acoustic bass in the left speaker). Listening to several other jazz SACDs this morning the bass seems well focused with my SongTowers in full range. I will most definitely be using Audyssey when listening to MCH SACDs as that is where I find XT32 shines smile.gif.
Bill

Funny! I was just testing different outputs with SACD from my Oppo 93 & 4311 combo myself this morning. There is a definitely bass increase when using PCM vs DSD although, only tested stereo and not direct, in my case I found the DSD to better otherwise (high, mids). I am running my mains as small crossed over at 80, what XT32 wanted to do with them, but haven't experimented much otherwise.

Interesting stuff! I'm gonna keep playing around and see what works best for me.
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post #17863 of 21928
6/7/12 at 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Yes. I would immediately call EE and have them exchange it as you could have warranty issues if you ever needed to get it repaired. eek.gif
EE doesn't generally sell refurbs, but this one may have slipped through the cracks. EE should pay shipping both ways so there is no additional charge to you other than additional delay in having your new AVR setup.

Mine, also purchased from EE, has this exact same thing, a sticker with the serial. I was concerned and called Denon support. I was told that all new units are shipping this way. ???
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post #17864 of 21928
6/7/12 at 12:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Yes. I would immediately call EE and have them exchange it as you could have warranty issues if you ever needed to get it repaired. eek.gif
EE doesn't generally sell refurbs, but this one may have slipped through the cracks. EE should pay shipping both ways so there is no additional charge to you other than additional delay in having your new AVR setup.

I found this page http://usa.denon.com/us/Airplayus/AVR4311CIA100%20LA%20upgrade%20instructions%20v1.0.pdf and it appears to show both the MAC and serial number on a small piece of paper that is then on the AVR itself. That's how mine looks. Are you saying that's not how it should be? If we call Denon and verify the serial number, is that not enough?
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post #17865 of 21928
6/7/12 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceTBC View Post

BTW Bill I went back and re-read some of your recent posts regarding SACD and DSD Direct from the player. You posted a day or two ago that DSD Direct from the player disables Audyssey in the 4311. That's not correct as far as I know and see. When I just checked playing a SACD using DSD Direct to my 4311 Audyssey processing is still in effect. Given that fact it will likely be difficult to discern a difference in letting your player do the DSD decoding or the 4311. Not saying one can't but I know when I tried to tell a difference some time back I was unable to. Unless you're running analog cables to compare to HDMI/Audyssey.

IceTBC,

I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing. With my 83SE set to DSD and I select the Direct audio mode with the Stereo/Direct button on the 4311 Audyssey is disabled. At least on my 4311 and with the Onkyo 886 I had as well. All the comparisons I've done the past two days have been with HDMI.

Bill
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post #17866 of 21928
6/7/12 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post

Interesting but I virtually never run anything in Direct or Stereo mode, except as a curiosity for a few seconds - I have an oppo 93. Direct mode for me is virtually unlistenable because there is no room correction while stereo mode pales in comparison to 9.2 or 11.2, but then audio is a matter of preference. Besides, I have already boosted the subs by -6dB from the Audyssey XT32 calibration level.

I've tried using the simulated surround modes (DTS Neo:6 Music and DD PLII) for 2CH music and did not care for it. In my room with the speakers I have 2CH music in Stereo or Direct sounds excellent. But as you mention it is a matter of preference.

Bill
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post #17867 of 21928
6/7/12 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by itallushrt View Post

Mine, also purchased from EE, has this exact same thing, a sticker with the serial. I was concerned and called Denon support. I was told that all new units are shipping this way. ???

Just received mine from EE today and its the same as well. I guess as long as Denon says new units are shipping this way, I won't worry.
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post #17868 of 21928
6/7/12 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I've tried using the simulated surround modes (DTS Neo:6 Music and DD PLII) for 2CH music and did not care for it. In my room with the speakers I have 2CH music in Stereo or Direct sounds excellent. But as you mention it is a matter of preference.
Bill

Bill, have you ever tried using Audyssey and bypassing L/R for 2 channel listening? I started off with just stereo, but am now gravitating to this configuration 'cause of the nice things it does for my sub. Just curious. Does anyone else use this mode for music?
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post #17869 of 21928
6/7/12 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Bill, have you ever tried using Audyssey and bypassing L/R for 2 channel listening? I started off with just stereo, but am now gravitating to this configuration 'cause of the nice things it does for my sub. Just curious. Does anyone else use this mode for music?

Nethawk,

No I have not tried that option but it is an excellent idea smile.gif! I really could not figure out why someone would use the Bypass L/R thinking only of MCH use. But for 2CH in the Stereo mode that might be a good option. I'll definitely try it tomorrow morning when I should be doing stuff around the house. That stuff can wait as whats the rush wink.gif.
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post #17870 of 21928
6/7/12 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I've tried using the simulated surround modes (DTS Neo:6 Music and DD PLII) for 2CH music and did not care for it. In my room with the speakers I have 2CH music in Stereo or Direct sounds excellent.
Bill

Hey Bill-just for kicks give PLIIx (music) another try the next time you're listening to a stereo SACD.
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post #17871 of 21928
6/7/12 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

Hey Bill-just for kicks give PLIIx (music) another try the next time you're listening to a stereo SACD.

Hey Steve,

I tried PLII and DTS Neo:6 the other day and I prefer straight 2CH. But I should give it another shot though. Another comparison for me to do tomorrow. I'll never get anything done on the house. But I have my priorities and right now music is #1 wink.gif.

Bill
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post #17872 of 21928
6/7/12 at 1:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceTBC View Post

BTW Bill I went back and re-read some of your recent posts regarding SACD and DSD Direct from the player. You posted a day or two ago that DSD Direct from the player disables Audyssey in the 4311. That's not correct as far as I know and see. When I just checked playing a SACD using DSD Direct to my 4311 Audyssey processing is still in effect. Given that fact it will likely be difficult to discern a difference in letting your player do the DSD decoding or the 4311. Not saying one can't but I know when I tried to tell a difference some time back I was unable to. Unless you're running analog cables to compare to HDMI/Audyssey.

IceTBC,

I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing. With my 83SE set to DSD and I select the Direct audio mode with the Stereo/Direct button on the 4311 Audyssey is disabled. At least on my 4311 and with the Onkyo 886 I had as well. All the comparisons I've done the past two days have been with HDMI.

Bill

You're right. We are. My mistake in not reading your original post closely enough. biggrin.gif
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post #17873 of 21928
6/7/12 at 2:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceTBC View Post

You're right. We are. My mistake in not reading your original post closely enough. biggrin.gif

Not a problem, been there done that wink.gif.

Bill
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post #17874 of 21928
6/7/12 at 3:29pm
)Quote:
Originally Posted by IceTBC View Post


For your information Bill, according to Bob Pariseau (who IMO is the most knowledgeable and helpful poster in the Oppo 93 thread) on SACD playback the 93 's LFE channel is output at a different level depending on whether you let the Oppo decode it (sending it PCM to your AVR) or let your AVR decode it (DSD Direct). IOW the bass management in the 93 is different in the two cases. Pretty sure if the 93 decodes it (versus the AVR) the LFE channel is 10db louder. I noticed and verified this with my set up (93 to 4311) about a year and a half ago and I let the 93 decode DSD since this seems to properly match up with playback of other 5.1 material in the LFE (.1) channel. Now it's possible Oppo has changed this in a firmware update since then but I can't recall mention of this and I haven't gone back and re-checked it anytime recently. You might query Bob on this point on the 93 thread and check it yourself on your system.

 

I was the one who asked whether Bill was hearing reduced bass when passing SACD as DSD because I can reproduce this very easily in my setup.  As Ice mentions, it has been discussed in a number of places.  I originally heard about the issue in a thread from way back in 2006 (http://www.avsforum.com/t/748147/lfe-subwoofers-and-interconnects-explained) that some of you might find interesting.

 

Since the DAC's in the Oppo 93 are at least as good as the Denon 4311 DAC's, I see no disadvantage whatsoever in allowing the Oppo to decode and pass PCM.  If someone can hear a difference, I think it would be hard to measure, and is most likely expectation bias.

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post #17875 of 21928
6/7/12 at 3:39pm

Slightly OT:  has anyone ever heard of a SACD test disk (i.e. one that has test tones).  I would like to be able to measure the LF output difference between PCM and DSD for an SACD source.

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post #17876 of 21928
6/7/12 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Slightly OT:  has anyone ever heard of a SACD test disk (i.e. one that has test tones).  I would like to be able to measure the LF output difference between PCM and DSD for an SACD source.

I decided not to order it, but I found this when I was setting up my system:

http://www.amazon.com/Tchaikovsky-Overture-Kunzel-Cincinnati-Multichannel/dp/B00005AVNH

Note: I wouldn't swear to the test tones, I learned it from one of the reviews:
Quote:
In addition to the 1812 Overture, the disc also contains a number of Tchaikovsky's other works. At the end of the multichannel SACD are 6 tracks of test tones for help in balancing the SACD player. I found the LFE track to be invaluable and better than the player's test tones. The voice used to introduce each tone is sure to bring a smile to any face.
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post #17877 of 21928
6/7/12 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by itallushrt View Post

Mine, also purchased from EE, has this exact same thing, a sticker with the serial. I was concerned and called Denon support. I was told that all new units are shipping this way. ???

I'll check with my contact at Denon and see if I can confirm as I hadn't heard of them doing this procedure.

Edit: Can at least one of you guys take a photo of the back panel with a closeup on the white card and attach it to your post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ObiChad View Post

I found this page http://usa.denon.com/us/Airplayus/AVR4311CIA100%20LA%20upgrade%20instructions%20v1.0.pdf and it appears to show both the MAC and serial number on a small piece of paper that is then on the AVR itself. That's how mine looks. Are you saying that's not how it should be? If we call Denon and verify the serial number, is that not enough?

This simply highlights where the serial number should be with a "white" marker bar.
Edited by jdsmoothie - 6/7/12 at 6:21pm
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post #17878 of 21928
6/7/12 at 6:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Slightly OT:  has anyone ever heard of a SACD test disk (i.e. one that has test tones).  I would like to be able to measure the LF output difference between PCM and DSD for an SACD source.

I have this one from Pentatone http://www.amazon.com/Stay-Tune-PentaTone-Hybrid-SACD/dp/B000B6N6HW. You can find a better track listing here on Pentatones site http://www.pentatonemusic.com/index1.htm if you search for 5186 086 using their site search function. It has thirty different test tracks besides the music tracks which are listed on Amazon.
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post #17879 of 21928
6/7/12 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by itallushrt View Post

Mine, also purchased from EE, has this exact same thing, a sticker with the serial. I was concerned and called Denon support. I was told that all new units are shipping this way. ???

I'll check with my contact at Denon and see if I can confirm as I hadn't heard of them doing this procedure.

Edit: Can at least one of you guys take a photo of the back panel with a closeup on the white card and attach it to your post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ObiChad View Post

I found this page http://usa.denon.com/us/Airplayus/AVR4311CIA100%20LA%20upgrade%20instructions%20v1.0.pdf and it appears to show both the MAC and serial number on a small piece of paper that is then on the AVR itself. That's how mine looks. Are you saying that's not how it should be? If we call Denon and verify the serial number, is that not enough?

This simply highlights where the serial number should be with a "white" marker bar.

someone posted the pic of what they were worried about in the "deal" thread...

it's exactly the way the one on my a100 is attached... wink.gif
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post #17880 of 21928
6/7/12 at 9:29pm
Should I be worried that the top vented portion of my newly acquired 4311CI smells like fish?

Serious question.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK]