The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 601

HDMI audio is not inherently better than optical (or digital coax) audio. It just allows more bandwidth so you can pass higher resolution formats. So as long as a signal can "legally" pass via optical it will sound exactly the same as passing it via HDMI. With TV signals you are getting at best Dolby Digital 5.1 which passes just fine either way. The only difference would be with higher rez formats (like on a Blu-ray) which can't pass via optical.

Geez I was afraid of that. What a disappointment! I might as well keep the arc feature turned off on the avr and save on the standby power it consumes and not deal with that ridiculous behaviour every time i turn on the tv. I'll just use an optical cable or enable the hdmi-cec functionality whenever i want to use samsung's SMART TV's "SMARTHUB" - ironic, isnt it?! ha
Edited by zdoggz - 6/13/12 at 9:59am

@zdoggz

Also note that I am unaware of any cable/sat/OTA/Web that sends better then DD 5.1 so there is nothing to gain from ARC but you do get the aggravation which IMO 99% comes from the content protection (DHCP).

I think we can let DHCP off the hook this one time. CEC is the cause of the aggravation trying to do too much thinking for you in deciding which input you want selected and which devices should be on or off. That has nothing to do with content protection.

There's plenty of blame left from other sources of aggravation to throw in the direction of DHCP .

^^^
Agree in this case, I am prejudice based on experience. Still there is nothing better to pass by way of ARC then the DD 5.1 so to heckwith it. I figure why fight with it over 1 small cable.

AFAIK Netflix is now streaming HD movies using DD+ so in that instance you would need to use the ARC HDMI cable if you wanted to listen to the DD+ over the DD 5.1.

I will not play with them!

Edit: HTPC could avoid the ARC

You're right, but not all Netflix devices will receive 5.1 sound, and some won't even stream Netflix HD movies at 1080p.

Most Netflix streaming offerings are not in DD+ (but you can get surround sound using Dolby ProLogic II from movies that have matrixed signals in the two channels you'll receive.

Here's a list of current Netflix titles encoded in DD+:
http://www.tvandmoviesnow.com/search.php?page=1&Prime=1&serv=Netflix&sur=1

How can you tell it's DD+ as opposed to DD 5.1?

^^^

i thought all netflix 5.1 was dd+, but don't hold me to that...

wouldn't make sense for them to use two different codecs, but then again, many things don't make sense to me...

I tried calling Netflix and the rep didn't even know they did DD+.

^^^

i'm shocked, shocked i tell you....

I've been a subscriber at Netflix for this entire century, and I am convinced, without a shadow of a doubt, that Dilbert works for Netflix customer relations/support. Just check out their upper management.

Well just went through XT32 and all I can say is WOW, coming from a Marantz + REW tuned BFD + Rythmik combo this is almost shocking.

My speakers and subs have never sounded so good, I believe... all hail Audyssey XT32.

This is my second experience with XT32 but first in my own system, the other was an Integra 80.3 pre/pro and that sounded amazing but with the rest of the gear in that system it was pretty much expected (still an 'eye' opener... or maybe 'ear').

Jason

^^^

aintcha glad you popped for it?

it really is remarkable how well it works...

now, of course, we get to drag you further down the rabbit hole....

Well said.....
If you're sufficiently dedicated/fanatic, it's only the start of the conversation.

Six months ago, I was a happy camper with a Pioneer SC-57, AS-EQ1 for bass EQ of subs,, and MCACC.

Then I met Chris......and the guys on the 4311 thread.

Today, I have a 4311, an Audyssey Pro kit to go with XT32, independent measurement mic & software, and a steep but rewarding learning curve. With the full knowledge that compared to the real gurus on the Pro thread, I'm a toddler...

The rabbit hole is beckoning.......young one.

We have plenty of room.....

(not to scare you or anything; there's nothing wrong with enjoying what you have and being satisfied)

Chris,

Oh Yes, and to think I was on the verge of returning it thinking it was probably only going to be a marginal gain in my difficult room... glad I decided to hook it up and let my ears decide.

Wonderland being the end result... sign me up!

Jason

Oh nothing A/V related scares me, I am 43 years old with 25+ years into A/V and do pro-level calibrations for friends/family (have all the gear).

That said I am not going to invest in the Audyssey Pro kit anytime soon but will certainly look into it down the road, probably will see a speaker upgrade before I venture into the Pro kit.

Jason

steve, a bit more on this now that i've done a full pro cal and done some listening to "familiar material" (i have a rather small rotation of music that i listen to anyway)...

methinks i like it better without the panels... swmbo definitely likes it better without them... this is all subjective, of course... dunno if it's because of "overly dead", or not.... there's definitely a better "sense of space" without them....

intriguing... when i had my sierra's, i had this room damped pretty hard... side walls, front walls and behind the mlp... that really worked well with them... with the salks, it improved a bunch when i pulled them off the front wall... and this seems to be even "better"...

when i tried trapping the corners directly behind the speakers, it ate a HUGE hole into a wide area of the response curve.... that didn't work out so well...

i'm also toed in pretty hard now... which is also likely coming into play...

wish i could place an objective measurement on what i am hearing...

btw... if anyone lives near me and wants some slightly smoky/cat smelling white gik panels, i've got a bunch that are available for the usual fee... you donate to your no-kill shelter, and you can pick some up gratis.... pm if interested... i've got several 2 inchers, a few 4 inchers, and a pair of tri-traps....

Yup-my ears love him but my wallet hates him

well... i'll take credit for getting you started on this path... but i didn't have to push you too hard...

nah, you aren't a toddler anymore... you are well on your way to full jedi master status...

and yup, like the haunted house... there's always room for one more...

just doing my part to jump start the economy...

yup... as is well known, i'm not a big "subjective" kinda guy... but it's hard to deny the "ear results"... it doesn't hurt that when measured, those subjective results are borne out objectively as well...

since you've got the tools... run a 1/24th smoothed graph from say, 20 to 200hz and post it up... let's see what your splice looks like... "we" have found that a bit of tweaking can be pretty beneficial in that area... best of all, it's free...

glad you are happy... given the incessant, ummm, noise, from one or two posters recently about how "audyssey sucks", it's good to see a new user post a happy post...

And my wife...she's wondering why I keep getting these mysterious boxes from obscure retailers, and have the mic cables and stand on permanent will call....

Also, theres nothing like a bracing 14 calibration Audyssey Pro run at 1 AM.

On the bright sides, the dogs (a/k/a the 'crack assistants') like to sleep against the subs. I'm almost tempted to run the HSU pipe organ test one night to see if they notice, but that's probably considered animal cruelty LOL

Yeah mine, too, but if he lifts his leg on one of my Rythmiks there WILL BE animal cruelty .

 

 

Again, slightly OT, and slightly stale, but I ordered and received the two recommended SACD's with test tones ("Stay in Tune with PentaTone", a sampler with a series of test tones at the end, and "Tchaikovsky 1812", a classical sampler , also with a few test tones).

 

Recall, the original discussion pertained to whether the LFE channel was affected by configuring the Oppo to output SACD as DSD, or PCM.  My claim was that the LFE signal level was "significantly lower" when the SACD signal was output as DSD and decoded in the 4311.  At the time, I had no test disks to test this claim.  The purpose of this post is to report my findings.

 

Both new SACD's have test tones for the LFE channel.  Using these tracks, I conducted the following test:

 

- Configured the Oppo to output PCM.

- Played the LFE test tone.

- Adjusted the master volume so that I was reading a 75dB level on my RS SPL.

- In the Oppo menu, switched the SACD output to DSD (note, when switching the output format, the Oppo automatically re-starts the current track, which is useful for A-B comparisons).

- Observed on the RS SPL that the level was now ~65dB, a -10dB difference.

- Switched back to PCM, and the level returned to 75dB.

 

So, it seems that there really is a difference in LFE output between the two settings. 

 

Why have I noticed this difference when playing multi-channel SACD music?  I thought that mixers avoided using the .1 LFE channel when mixing music.  But I have a several bass-heavy music SACD's, and I can definitely hear the difference.  If mixers are indeed using the LFE channel, doesn't this suggest that the Oppo should always be configured for PCM output to preserve the LFE channel level?

 

^^^

the dreaded .1 bass boost rears it's ugly head...

the .1 channel is actually mastered 10db low... in order to correctly play it back, something in the chain needs to apply a 10db boost... (some sacd's were actually mastered 15db low in the .1 channel)...

when you decimate to pcm in the oppo, it is applying the boost (as it should)...

when you are doing dsd direct, there is nothing in the chain that can apply the boost....

this was an issue for awhile, as it didn't get implemented properly on many avr's (i know my old pio 82 required a firmware update to make it work "right")...

what happens if you send dsd, but do not use dsd direct?

btw, here is a post from you from this thread over a year ago that points this out...

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1274153/the-official-denon-avr-4311ci-avr-a100-thread-no-price-talk/8280#post_20181457

I got the volume to work with my harmony 1100, but I have to actually pick the device to get it to work. With my previous Onkyo, the volume always worked no matter what screen I had the remote on. Kind of a pain in the butt, but at least it's working. I'm going to continue messing with it, probably end up making a custom button.

^^^

sounds like to me there was an error in the setup, specifically the "what device do you use to control the volume" part....

try setting the activity up again... if the ir code works in device mode, there's no reason why it wouldn't work in activity mode...

 

Hi Chris,

 

Yes, I recall that post from a year ago, and I recall that when I first purchased the 4311, I had some discussions on the Oppo thread regarding the .1 bass boost.  What I don't understand is that not everyone seems to be convinced that there really is an issue.  In the recent discussion with Bill, SoundofMind stated (IIRC) that he favored DSD over PCM as sounding slightly better.  If the LFE channel is 10dB low, how can DSD be favored?  Perhaps I am missing something.

 

I did not use DSD Direct in my tests.  It was DSD, with full Audyssey and bass management.