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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 64

post #1891 of 21941
10/12/10 at 5:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beever View Post

Yes, extended warrantee will add some value to it but, most stores sell one for about $30 so thats what its worth to me. Add to that if you pay via AMEX you add warrantee time automatically and I doubt many of us will ever need to deal with a warrantee on a product 2,3,4 or 5 years down the line as they are usually DOA or run forever.

Yup. Either a cheap extended warranty plan or buying the 4311 on a premium Visa or AmEx card will add 1-2 years to the warranty, cheap.

I would also suggest that the additional % of value maintained over a year or two on an A100 will quickly plummet when HDMI 1.5b or whatever hits the scene and the 4311/A100 are no longer valuable or useful even as a prepro/switching unit.
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post #1892 of 21941
10/12/10 at 5:33pm
Why is there so much concern from a select few about someone's choice of the A100 over the 4311. The level of concern makes no sense to me. What am i missing?
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post #1893 of 21941
10/12/10 at 5:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

Why is there so much concern from a select few about someone's choice of the A100 over the 4311. The level of concern makes no sense to me. What am i missing?

Nothing much. They want it and can afford it. End of story.
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post #1894 of 21941
10/12/10 at 5:59pm
No matter what "nature show" you've ever watched, humans are still the strangest creatures on the planet, easly influenced by glossy faceplates and gold plated binding posts.... I can easily afford the AVP-A1HDCI, but chose the AVR-A100 instead....with only minimal rationale for spending less....
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post #1895 of 21941
10/12/10 at 6:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

Why is there so much concern from a select few about someone's choice of the A100 over the 4311. The level of concern makes no sense to me. What am i missing?

I was originally going to purchase the 3311 and after some research decided it was worth moving up to the 4311. Because I was originally aimed at the 331, the A100 was never on my radar, but I may be regretting that later on (mostly due to potential resale value).

It's way too early to know if there are real differences in audio performance - that's the price you pay for being an early adopter. On the flip side, most of us got substantial discounts ...

FWIW I'll add this: for most people $2000+ MSRP is a lot of money for a piece of entertainment equipment. If you are even slightly concerned that the 4311 may lack in any significant way compared to the A100, $500 is a small marginal cost to pay, vs. $2000 wasted on a receiver that won't cut it. That's one reason those with lower budgets are often the most tempted to upgrade to "better" models of dubious added value, whereas those with larger budgets can afford that small chance of making a mistake and will pocket the immediate price difference.

Granted, those of us who are trade-savvy (Audiogon etc.) can pawn off stuff for a minimal loss, but for most electronics can in no way be considered an investment.
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post #1896 of 21941
10/12/10 at 6:26pm
BAKERWI: You aren't missing anything. If I told you that a Mercedes Benz 500 in red cost 100k and in black cost 125k would you buy the black one or the red one?

In essence, the difference between the A100 and 4311 is 25% on a retail level for the same components, that's it in a nutshell. If you want a high gloss faceplate and it's worth $500 to you then that's the unit for you. Same goes for the gold binding posts, 5 year warrantee or lead feet..if they are something you prefer then its the unit for you. Dare I say that if it were available today I might very well opt for the A100, but it isnt available today and no one on earth can tell you when it will be..not yet anyway.

Just like if you chose the black car for $25,000 more than the red car. The same exact car but one paint job costs $25,000 more. Not an issue if of whether you can afford it or not, if you can afford a $2000 processor you can most likely spring the extra $500 for the A100, the question is not one of value or cost but reasoning behind choosing a sonically identical unit over another and paying a 25% premium in doing so. In the car scenario, maybe you just love black cars and hate red, then maybe that's justification enough to pay more, not for me but maybe for you.

What is so hard to understand?

No one is telling you which to buy or insulting you for choosing one over the other, we are all just trying to justify the difference in price, that's all. If in the future it is proven to be sonically different and superior I will probably be the first to sell my 4311 and switch to the A100. If it is identical then I bought the right unit for me, at a better price point and used it for 1,2,3 months or more without waiting for the A100 to ship.
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post #1897 of 21941
10/12/10 at 6:31pm
^^ and if I were buying it to be the president's limo, I would need it to be in black.
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post #1898 of 21941
10/12/10 at 6:58pm
So anyone got wwstereo order shipped? I actually called to cancel my order today and they told me it's too late, the order is shipping. I didn't get shipping info as of 10 pm.
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post #1899 of 21941
10/12/10 at 7:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

Last night I fiddled until 2:30 am. my wife thought I was pretty nuts. It took me a good 5 hours to take aprt my stack, lower the amps a touch, throw in a FleaBayed Monster Power 7000 Signature, add a new Green Netgear 16 port switch and finally slide in the 4311 and start tying up all the wires and cables.

Glad to see your posts Seattle. It was always nice to read about the 4810 from your perspective and the 4311 looks promising..
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post #1900 of 21941
10/12/10 at 7:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post


I don't know about you, but I personally do not have any history with Denon 100th year anniversary AVRs, so I'm just going to see how things play out, at this point.

Don't need to have any personal history as far as Denon's 100th anniversary products, one only needs to look at how much "special" firmware support their $7.5k AVP-A1HDCI flagship pre-pro has gotten so far. And so far, other than for mostly fixing bugs, it has pretty much been zilch.
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post #1901 of 21941
10/12/10 at 7:28pm
why does one have to knock the A100.. who cares.. let the person spend as they see fit.. if you dont think it's worth the addition $500 then so be it. You dont need to try to knock it down to make yourself feel better.
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post #1902 of 21941
10/12/10 at 7:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

Beever,

Where did this tirade come from?

Evidently those who have chosen to pursue the A100 may or may not care if it isn't sonically better. We all have different buying criteria's. Why does it have to be ego if someone opts for the A100? There are two products for sale and a person's decision to buy one over the other is their business. It's quite possible that the differences that we are aware of are worth it to a perspective buyer. I respect your rational to buy or not to buy the A100 vs the 4311 and you should do the same for those who have chosen to pursue the A100.

When did you become the voice for this forum?

You can't buy a warranty for a $1,500+ AVR for about $30. It doesn't exist. Also, some credit card warranties depreciate the item as far as warranty claims.

Last, I upgrade my AVR every 8+ years unless it fails and the fact that you swap processors every 3 years is a personal decision. There are many who don't.


Willie

Willie you are absolutly correct. I hope you pre ordered the A100 as there still seems to be people on this thread thinking they still have time to buy one latter. I am on another thread and their sorces are just as reliable as anyone else's and the A100's are spoken for! All credable sites are first filling back orders first and then post any left over for sale. I am # 2 on Crutchfiel's list and I have heard they are only making about 2000 A100's.Of corse everthing is still hear say but as this IS a Denon thread I really find it hard to believe anyone thinking they are pasteing a badge on it to rip us off. If I thought that I wouldn't buy anything from a company that did bussiness like that. I did pay MSRP and it is my money to spend so I chose to get it right from the begining. If it does happen to contain better or should I say different components it's icing on the cake and I do believe they will. IMHO.
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post #1903 of 21941
10/12/10 at 7:55pm
I didn't purchase the A100 for a few reasons.

The first, and main, reason is the 4311 is available now, and I needed (actually wanted ) a new AVR this month.

Secondly, the A100 was roughly $300 more expensive. Because I find myself upgrading AVRs about every 3 years, a 5 year warranty doesn't make much sense in my case. Now if the 4311 didn't come with a 3 year warranty then I would have definitely given the A100 more thought.

Lastly, all the other *known* upgrades the A100 has over the 4311 don't mean anything to me. If I wanted the best possible components/features (DACs, amps, THX certification, etc) then I wouldn't even be considering either of these AVRs.
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post #1904 of 21941
10/12/10 at 8:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beever View Post

BAKERWI: You aren't missing anything. If I told you that a Mercedes Benz 500 in red cost 100k and in black cost 125k would you buy the black one or the red one?

In essence, the difference between the A100 and 4311 is 25% on a retail level for the same components, that's it in a nutshell. If you want a high gloss faceplate and it's worth $500 to you then that's the unit for you. Same goes for the gold binding posts, 5 year warrantee or lead feet..if they are something you prefer then its the unit for you. Dare I say that if it were available today I might very well opt for the A100, but it isnt available today and no one on earth can tell you when it will be..not yet anyway.

Just like if you chose the black car for $25,000 more than the red car. The same exact car but one paint job costs $25,000 more. Not an issue if of whether you can afford it or not, if you can afford a $2000 processor you can most likely spring the extra $500 for the A100, the question is not one of value or cost but reasoning behind choosing a sonically identical unit over another and paying a 25% premium in doing so. In the car scenario, maybe you just love black cars and hate red, then maybe that's justification enough to pay more, not for me but maybe for you.

What is so hard to understand?

No one is telling you which to buy or insulting you for choosing one over the other, we are all just trying to justify the difference in price, that's all. If in the future it is proven to be sonically different and superior I will probably be the first to sell my 4311 and switch to the A100. If it is identical then I bought the right unit for me, at a better price point and used it for 1,2,3 months or more without waiting for the A100 to ship.

beever can you tell me where you are getting your information from or a link to explain how or why you can state the two units are the same? Then just make the remark of just a glossy face plate. I am not trying to be rude but would like to know if I made the mistake of spending the extra 500 bucks and I can cancel. All the rumors indicate that there will be different parts in the A100. Will it sound better? Only your own ears can tell you that. If Denon was juat giving a glossy face and Iron feet I doubt if they would get repeat customers and do you think they would jeopardize their reputation like that? All, thanks for letting me make a point (just my point) . I'm finished defending comments made on no real sorce and just opinions.

Bob
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post #1905 of 21941
10/12/10 at 8:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kee68 View Post

beever can you tell me where you are getting your information from or a link to explain how or why you can state the two units are the same? Then just make the remark of just a glossy face plate. I am not trying to be rude but would like to know if I made the mistake of spending the extra 500 bucks and I can cancel. All the rumors indicate that there will be different parts in the A100. Will it sound better? Only your own ears can tell you that. If Denon was juat giving a glossy face and Iron feet I doubt if they would get repeat customers and do you think they would jeopardize their reputation like that? All, thanks for letting me make a point (just my point) . I'm finished defending comments made on no real sorce and just opinions.

Bob

Its not the statement they are the same, it is the lack of the statement of what is really different.

So far we know leaded feet, glossy black face plate, gold plated connections in the rear and a 5 year warranty. Also, you get a cert from the engineer who made it and a Denon history book of some sort.

If you also look at the specs on websites, you see the exact same specs mentioned for the 4311, including the weight(dead give away no improved amp section or transformer).

Look at the guts, and look at the rear panel of both units. Guess what is exactly the same minus the gold plated inputs on the a100?

http://www.denon100.com/pdf/AVRA100_E3.pdf
http://usa.denon.com/DocumentMaster/...CI_Lit_913.pdf

Its clearly a rebadged 4311. However, that extra 3 year warranty is nice, as long as you aren't paying $500 for it, IMO.

Let me make this clear: it is not a bad thing Denon is selling a rebadged 4311 as this a100. it is perfectly fine. They do it already with their best buy lines and some of their lower CI lines.

It really boils down to if you find the need for the extra warranty. A manufacturer warranty is as good as they get. What do you value that extra 3 years to be worth, then find out the street prices of both units. If its within that range, i see no reason why someone wouldn't pay the extra for the a100.
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post #1906 of 21941
10/12/10 at 8:38pm
Question for those with a 4311, especially those that have been using it for a bit now.

Are the two fans you see under the heatsinks for the amps audible? Please think of it from someone who is anal about the sound of fans in equipment. Hell, the hard drive and fan in my Directv DVR bothers me when it is silent in the room and i can hear it humming along.

I want to know if is it audible up close in a silent room, and if so, how far back do you have to move until you no longer hear it?

Thanks a head of time.
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post #1907 of 21941
10/12/10 at 8:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beever View Post

BAKERWI: You aren't missing anything. If I told you that a Mercedes Benz 500 in red cost 100k and in black cost 125k would you buy the black one or the red one?

In essence, the difference between the A100 and 4311 is 25% on a retail level for the same components, that's it in a nutshell. If you want a high gloss faceplate and it's worth $500 to you then that's the unit for you. Same goes for the gold binding posts, 5 year warrantee or lead feet..if they are something you prefer then its the unit for you. Dare I say that if it were available today I might very well opt for the A100, but it isnt available today and no one on earth can tell you when it will be..not yet anyway.

Just like if you chose the black car for $25,000 more than the red car. The same exact car but one paint job costs $25,000 more. Not an issue if of whether you can afford it or not, if you can afford a $2000 processor you can most likely spring the extra $500 for the A100, the question is not one of value or cost but reasoning behind choosing a sonically identical unit over another and paying a 25% premium in doing so. In the car scenario, maybe you just love black cars and hate red, then maybe that's justification enough to pay more, not for me but maybe for you.

What is so hard to understand?

No one is telling you which to buy or insulting you for choosing one over the other, we are all just trying to justify the difference in price, that's all. If in the future it is proven to be sonically different and superior I will probably be the first to sell my 4311 and switch to the A100. If it is identical then I bought the right unit for me, at a better price point and used it for 1,2,3 months or more without waiting for the A100 to ship.

Do you have the A100 now that you are able to make the assumption of it being a 4311 with a shiny paint job? I think we are making a lot of assumptions about value or perceived value before any of us sees/ hears any of the benefits/ lack of benefits. Would we not agree that the 4810 with xt32 and 3d would be a different caliber unit than the 4311 and could potentially command a premium in price? It does today minus those features. So, why not make the leap that the A100 could be a 4810 replacement rather than a 4311 clone? Without having the detailed specs and or physical unit we have no basis to assume anything other than the 4311 and A100 will be different and consumers will make decisions based on what they value. For me it's a shiny face, sturdy legs and updated guts (whatever they are). All items that I Think are worth the $300 dollar premium of what the A100 cost versus the 4311. The pre- order wait is not a deciding factor.
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post #1908 of 21941
10/12/10 at 8:43pm
Another Question:

On my AVR-1910 - when I play music through my HTPC and then turn off the TV (to save power) the music stops..

I have to switch sources on the AVR-1910 to get the AVR to repickup the signal.

Can someone with a 4311 comment on whether its the same?

i hope not, because its somewhat inconvenient..
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post #1909 of 21941
10/12/10 at 8:46pm
Kee68: Based on the dozens of Denon posters on this very thread and all of the research we as a forum have been able to accumulate...

Not a single person has been able to show that anything contained within the chassis of the A100 differs in any way from the 4311. Some are speculating better capacitors or DAC's and many like myself say B-S. I dont know what rumors you are talking about, no one seems to disagree as of yet that there is no evidence to disprove the fact that the innards are identical.

The fact that they are intentionally vague has proven in the past to mean that there is no difference. I have owned several Denon products and when you hear nothing from Denon it's generally what you get different..nothing.

As far as alienating their customers, I dont think so. There are many posters in this very thread that are buying with the understanding that they will or may be buying nothing more than the glossy faceplate, badge on front, gold plated rear connectors and lead feet. If you count a certificate and 100 anniversary booklet as a worthy difference then it may have that as well.

Make it in limited edition, raise the price 24% and tell people its special and they will buy it. Show me it has even a single part internally that will make an audible difference is sound or video quality and I will buy it.
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post #1910 of 21941
10/12/10 at 8:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

Do you have the A100 now that you are able to make the assumption of it being a 4311 with a shiny paint job? I think we are making a lot of assumptions about value or perceived value before any of us sees/ hears any of the benefits/ lack of benefits. Would we not agree that the 4810 with xt32 and 3d would be a different caliber unit than the 4311 and could potentially command a premium in price? It does today minus those features. So, why not make the leap that the A100 could be a 4810 replacement rather than a 4311 clone? Without having the detailed specs and or physical unit we have no basis to assume anything other than the 4311 and A100 will be different and consumers will make decisions based on what they value. For me it's a shiny face, sturdy legs and updated guts (whatever they are). All items that I Think are worth the $300 dollar premium of what the A100 cost versus the 4311. The pre- order wait is not a deciding factor.

Read my post two up from yours. Detailed specs have been out for awhile now. Its the same thing as the 4311.
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post #1911 of 21941
10/12/10 at 8:50pm
Mariob33: The reason people know it is the same as the 4311 is the Denon website. It clearly states the dimensions and weight of the unit, identical to the 4311. The 4810 has completely different internal components, higher end DAC's and a beefier power supply with a bigger footprint and weight than the 4311, so it cannot be a replacement for the 4810 as it is built on a completely different chassis.
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post #1912 of 21941
10/12/10 at 8:53pm
Do you see a difference?
LL
LL
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post #1913 of 21941
10/12/10 at 8:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kee68 View Post

Willie you are absolutly correct. I hope you pre ordered the A100 as there still seems to be people on this thread thinking they still have time to buy one latter. I am on another thread and their sorces are just as reliable as anyone else's and the A100's are spoken for! All credable sites are first filling back orders first and then post any left over for sale. I am # 2 on Crutchfiel's list and I have heard they are only making about 2000 A100's.Of corse everthing is still hear say but as this IS a Denon thread I really find it hard to believe anyone thinking they are pasteing a badge on it to rip us off. If I thought that I wouldn't buy anything from a company that did bussiness like that. I did pay MSRP and it is my money to spend so I chose to get it right from the begining. If it does happen to contain better or should I say different components it's icing on the cake and I do believe they will. IMHO.

I read only 500 to be released in US..maybe 2000 worldwide? There are preorder slots still available at several of the e-tailers.
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post #1914 of 21941
10/12/10 at 8:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beever View Post

Mariob33: The reason people know it is the same as the 4311 is the Denon website. It clearly states the dimensions and weight of the unit, identical to the 4311. The 4810 has completely different internal components, higher end DAC's and a beefier power supply with a bigger footprint and weight than the 4311, so it cannot be a replacement for the 4810 as it is built on a completely different chassis.

Exactly. Plus the 4811(if it ever is even announced) will be $2,999 like the 4810 retails for. Not $2499.

this is nothing more than Ford making a few changes to the car and putting a Mercury name plate on it.

Oh, and once again: it is perfectly fine that Denon is doing this. i have no issues with it at all.
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post #1915 of 21941
10/12/10 at 9:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kee68 View Post

beever can you tell me where you are getting your information from or a link to explain how or why you can state the two units are the same? Then just make the remark of just a glossy face plate. I am not trying to be rude but would like to know if I made the mistake of spending the extra 500 bucks and I can cancel. All the rumors indicate that there will be different parts in the A100. Will it sound better? Only your own ears can tell you that. If Denon was juat giving a glossy face and Iron feet I doubt if they would get repeat customers and do you think they would jeopardize their reputation like that? All, thanks for letting me make a point (just my point) . I'm finished defending comments made on no real sorce and just opinions.

Bob

kee68: what rumors? See that bolded part of your post. What rumors? point to a credible audio website that has this rumors posted. The only place i see these 'rumors' mentioned is in this avsforum thread. i go to any other AV website forums and NO ONE is mentioning that there are rumors of changes to the insides.

i swear, if someone takes the time to look, there will be one post in this thread right after the a100 announcement either asking 'i wonder what is better, the amps, dacs, what?' or 'i bet there are better amps or dacs for that $500' and from that single post sprang the 'rumors' of there being differences.

I've seen this a hundred times on forums. one person makes a post, and a month later what that poster had posted became a huge theme or fact or rumor that everyone was basing something off of.
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post #1916 of 21941
10/12/10 at 9:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beever View Post

Mariob33: The reason people know it is the same as the 4311 is the Denon website. It clearly states the dimensions and weight of the unit, identical to the 4311. The 4810 has completely different internal components, higher end DAC's and a beefier power supply with a bigger footprint and weight than the 4311, so it cannot be a replacement for the 4810 as it is built on a completely different chassis.

Internal components of higher quality can be used and weigh same/less/more than their lower quality alternatives. Fit finish technology do play a role. Leveraging enhancements to build them better but cheaper.. I would think that reuse of chassis would be a huge cost savings and be reason why it's priced at 2499 versus 2999 which the 4810 retails at.
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post #1917 of 21941
10/12/10 at 9:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

So, why not make the leap that the A100 could be a 4810 replacement rather than a 4311 clone?

Because it is not a replacement for the 4810. With counting the high gloss front panel and cast iron feet of the A100, and even with counting the more meaningful addition of gold plated speaker outputs, and whatever their so called "upgraded condenser block" is. Like it or not, the A100 is really nothing much more than a pimped out 4311. It's more pomp & fluff differences, than anything major as far as being a whole lot better.
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post #1918 of 21941
10/12/10 at 9:08pm
I thought it was stated that the A100 has a special block condenser which has a different part # than the 4311...what that means I have no idea.
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post #1919 of 21941
10/12/10 at 9:34pm
Some 40+ years ago I asked a very successful businessman as to why he was driving an Olds 98 and not a Cadillac. His response was “same car, different body, thousands less” Both were great cars.
This debate appears to me to lean the same.
I can also remember an old Native American saying “When the horse is dead, get off”
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post #1920 of 21941
10/12/10 at 9:44pm
Personally, instead of spending the $500 difference for the A100 over a 4311. I would get the 4311 and take that $500 difference in price between the two and apply it towards buying a Audyssey Pro installers kit and a unlock key for the 4311. Sure it would end up being more at about $650-$750 for the Audyssey Pro kit and device key, vs $500 more for the A100. But being able to do your own Audyssey Pro calibrations, it is also something where I'd bet just about everyone would notice a difference for the better.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK]