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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 642

post #19231 of 23133
^Yes Dir/PureDir modes disable Audyssey but disable more than that. As stated in the batpig guide,Surround Mode section:

"Using either DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode will disable all bass management, which means that your front L/R speakers will get a full-range signal, and if the subwoofer is ON it will “double up” the bass from the mains. The only “bass management” available in DIRECT or PURE DIRECT modes is "double bass" when LFE+MAIN is on. Therefore, if you have small front speakers that can’t handle bass, just use the STEREO mode for 2-channel music to preserve all of your bass management settings. See the next question for a more thorough discussion of Direct vs Stereo mode.
Also, please note that if you select PURE DIRECT, the display and video output will be shut off."

I suggest you read through that entire section to understand more about your options, including custom settings in Stereo mode.


To disable Audyssey, just cycle the EQ button on the remote to Audyssey Off.

Glad to hear that you already have an array of Polk speakers including a good CC.
Edited by SoundofMind - 9/3/12 at 4:42am
post #19232 of 23133
Would my Denon 4311 w/ mutli xt32 be good enough to eq my 2 svs PC-Ultra 13's?
post #19233 of 23133
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdika17 View Post

Would my Denon 4311 w/ mutli xt32 be good enough to eq my 2 svs PC-Ultra 13's?

Why not? Do you know of a higher-resolution system for equalizing subs?
post #19234 of 23133
^Yes indeedy, cdika17. Hi and welcome.

The 4311's XT32 w/ SubEQHT is one of the best sub EQ systems around and works very well for 2 subs.

If you have no room placement options then hook one sub 1 up to the AVR sub preout 1 and sub 2 to AVR preout 2. Autosetup will guide you as to setting the initial level for each. You would not use either sub's PEQ function. SubEQHT will set level and distance individually and then EQ the 2 subs firing together.

If you have placement options, and are inspired to such endeavors, it is recommended that you do a sub crawl/haul (preferably measured using OmniMic or similar system) to find some spots for the subs that improve the smoothness of the overall bass response when both subs fire simultaneously. That done, then run autosetup as above.
post #19235 of 23133
^ ^ ^ It is all subjective! What Audyssey does for one person will not neccesarally do it for another. Flat sounding audio is not for all including flat bass. I have both, Pioneer SC-57 MCACC and Denon 4311ci XT32. Prefer MCACC with Anti Mode in my HT room and XT32 in my living room.
post #19236 of 23133
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Yes indeedy, cdika17. Hi and welcome.
The 4311's XT32 w/ SubEQHT is one of the best sub EQ systems around and works very well for 2 subs.
If you have no room placement options then hook one sub 1 up to the AVR sub preout 1 and sub 2 to AVR preout 2. Autosetup will guide you as to setting the initial level for each. You would not use either sub's PEQ function. SubEQHT will set level and distance individually and then EQ the 2 subs firing together.
If you have placement options, and are inspired to such endeavors, it is recommended that you do a sub crawl/haul (preferably measured using OmniMic or similar system) to find some spots for the subs that improve the smoothness of the overall bass response when both subs fire simultaneously. That done, then run autosetup as above.

Currently I have prewired RG6 to 4 different spots in my theater, 2 corners behind AT Screen and 2 in the rear corners of room, so placement of subs or additional subs will not be an issue. I guess i would start to run into a pickle if I went over the 2 sub layout. I also prewired my columns with 2 sets of speaker wire in case in wall subs were a factor or not. Then for that I would have a rack mountable amp and eq.
post #19237 of 23133
Quote:
Currently I have prewired RG6 to 4 different spots in my theater, 2 corners behind AT Screen and 2 in the rear corners of room, so placement of subs or additional subs will not be an issue. I guess i would start to run into a pickle if I went over the 2 sub layout.

nah, if you went from 2 (two corners) to 4 (all four corners) subs you would just split each of the Denon's sub outs into two pairs.
post #19238 of 23133
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

^ ^ ^ It is all subjective! What Audyssey does for one person will not neccesarally do it for another. Flat sounding audio is not for all including flat bass. I have both, Pioneer SC-57 MCACC and Denon 4311ci XT32. Prefer MCACC with Anti Mode in my HT room and XT32 in my living room.
Not sure if you're responding to my post or what your point is. The OP's question was whether XT32 was "good enough" to eq 2 subs and my answer is...yes indeedy. I gavehim a quick summation of a good approach to optimizing SQ with 2 subs. Once you've gotten as close as you can get to reference, you can then tweak to preference. The principles for residential-sized rooms are the same- treat the room with bass traps if possible, and if you can, place the subs for smoothest response. Then apply a sophisticated and effective EQ to the summed room response with subs firing simultaneously. smile.gif
post #19239 of 23133
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdika17 View Post

Currently I have prewired RG6 to 4 different spots in my theater, 2 corners behind AT Screen and 2 in the rear corners of room, so placement of subs or additional subs will not be an issue...

To clarify, by "placement options" I meant having the option to slide the subs around at least a few feet in various directions to see if that improves the SQ. Corner placement will reinforce bass, usually unevenly. I found that by moving a single sub out of the corner by 2', it produced a flatter low freq response curve and reduced boominess. Later, when placing two subs, I again used a measurement system and started with midwall on opposite walls, as that has been shown by research to often provide good results for 2 subs in rectangular rooms. I then moved the subs around to see if things got much better or worse. Turns out that in my room there's lots of worse places for subs and none all that much better. Side walls were about as good as front/back. Front/back was convenient for me (subs out of sight and easy wire runs) so that's where they be. Tight, clean, punchy-in-your-chest bass. My preference. smile.gif
post #19240 of 23133
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

To clarify, by "placement options" I meant having the option to slide the subs around at least a few feet in various directions to see if that improves the SQ. Corner placement will reinforce bass, usually unevenly. I found that by moving a single sub out of the corner by 2', it produced a flatter low freq response curve and reduced boominess. Later, when placing two subs, I again used a measurement system and started with midwall on opposite walls, as that has been shown by research to often provide good results for 2 subs in rectangular rooms. I then moved the subs around to see if things got much better or worse. Turns out that in my room there's lots of worse places for subs and none all that much better. Side walls were about as good as front/back. Front/back was convenient for me (subs out of sight and easy wire runs) so that's where they be. Tight, clean, punchy-in-your-chest bass. My preference. smile.gif

Ya with having all subs and speakers hidden from kids and pure aesthetic reasons, they will be behind my AT screen or in back corners. So when time comes to calibrate, Ill know more as to where they sound the best.
post #19241 of 23133
^Good point, out of sight out of mind for the kiddies who'd love to play with those very nice subs.eek.gif
post #19242 of 23133
Got some questions. I changed up my room again (currently 9.1 with heights and wides) while my Denon was out for repair (Audyssey broke). Took a month so I had time to sell off some speakers, and redo the room.

Everything is to the exact angles that Audyssey recommends.

Sound Setup:

Denon AVR-4311ci
B&W CM9s (Left and Right)
B&W CM Centre
B&W CM1 Wides
Klipsch IconW WB14 Bookshelfs Heights
Klipsch WS24 Surround Dipoles
acoustech pl-200 subwoofer

Questions:

Anything added to drive the CM9s with a Emotiva external amp, or is the drive amps inside the Denon good enough?
If I added the Emotiva is there a way to bi-amp it while still running 9.2? How about 11.2? Or would Audyssey not be able to process it with that amount of channels?

Thinking of doing two 10" velodyne vx-11 , would that be an upgrade or downgrade over the single acoustech pl-200 12".

Any recommendations on subs? Should I focus on two or one?
post #19243 of 23133
Quote:
Anything added to drive the CM9s with a Emotiva external amp, or is the drive amps inside the Denon good enough?

I think you can answer that for yourself -- does it sound good when you crank it up, and can you play as loud as you want without any harshness or distortion? Then you probably don't need an external amp. The CM series (and of course the Klipsch) are very sensitive, HT Mag measured them at well over 90dB sensitivity so I doubt you need it.

Quote:
If I added the Emotiva is there a way to bi-amp it while still running 9.2? How about 11.2? Or would Audyssey not be able to process it with that amount of channels?

bi-amping with an external amp would be irrelevant to Audyssey or anything else on the receiver side. You would split the pre-out signal to two channels of the amp and then connect to the speaker, so as far as the receiver is concerned it's still outputting only one channel of info.

Quote:
Thinking of doing two 10" velodyne vx-11 , would that be an upgrade or downgrade over the single acoustech pl-200 12".

think bigger, why are you looking at $150 subwoofers when you have a $2000 receiver and really nice B&W speakers? That is BY FAR the weak link in your current system. If your budget is limited, add one kick-ass sub (keeping the PL-200 in the loop) and then upgade the 2nd sub later. That is a MUCH more pressing concern and a MUCH better allocation of resources than adding an Emotiva amp!
post #19244 of 23133
^Here's my take. Forget passive biamping using the AVR, it makes no diff. The internal amps are quite capable and are usually more than sufficient for normal rooms and average distance to speakers of average sensitivity. I suggest you put your system through a listening test. Once all is rehooked up and recalibrated, listen to challenging material at your loudest normal level and pay attention to whether there's any degradation in clarity. If it gets distorted and harsh during rapid peaks of sound, that may well be due to amp clipping and an ext amp might well help.

Two new Velo subs should sound great. See my posts just above on the advantages of two subs. You could ask for more detail on sub comparisons on the sub threads and recommendations as to models on the Velo support thread. In your case, if you get 2 new ones and are an enthusiastic experimenter with an acoustic measuring system like OmniMic, you could you even try a 3 sub setup.

edit -hadn't seen bp's exc response
Edited by SoundofMind - 9/7/12 at 10:57am
post #19245 of 23133
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think you can answer that for yourself -- does it sound good when you crank it up, and can you play as loud as you want without any harshness or distortion? Then you probably don't need an external amp. The CM series (and of course the Klipsch) are very sensitive, HT Mag measured them at well over 90dB sensitivity so I doubt you need it.
bi-amping with an external amp would be irrelevant to Audyssey or anything else on the receiver side. You would split the pre-out signal to two channels of the amp and then connect to the speaker, so as far as the receiver is concerned it's still outputting only one channel of info.
think bigger, why are you looking at $150 subwoofers when you have a $2000 receiver and really nice B&W speakers? That is BY FAR the weak link in your current system. If your budget is limited, add one kick-ass sub (keeping the PL-200 in the loop) and then upgade the 2nd sub later. That is a MUCH more pressing concern and a MUCH better allocation of resources than adding an Emotiva amp!

Waiting for the Denon to come back, so haven't tried the setup upstairs yet (Denon AVR-4311ci).

But downstairs, using a Denon AVR-3313ci and B&W CM5's I noticed a clarity difference bi-amping (using CL-3 14/2 speaker wire) to my spare backsurround channels inside that Denon, so was trying to get that effect on the CM9s when I get my Denon back.
I've REALLY REALLY enjoyed listening to music again, with the AVR-3313ci, and CM5's (new setup also). Hence why I went nuts and bought all B&W upstairs to redo the room, before it was all Klipsch WB-14's.

Great info on the link!

I may be mis understanding Audyseyy and bi-amping then. I could use your help. From my understanding Audyssey is doing channel by channel processing. When you bi-amp with Audyssey doesn't the low side, get a high pass filter activated from the Audyssey side, and the high side, gets a low pass filter activated, then it gets the scaling of the EQ?

So if I wanted to Bi-amp my 9.2 setup, I could use the left , right, and backsurround left, and backsurround right (amp assigned) to get that processing. But if I went 11.2 , I couldn't bi amp could I? Sorry my question wasn't as clear earlier.

Do you have any suggestions on a kick ass sub ($500 price range each), or were you mentioning that the PL-200 is a adequate (kick ass) sub? I honestly didn't research it that much, it was a impulse buy for my old setup, and i've enjoyed it thus far, but don't have many stores nearby to demo higher end subwoofers, and I'm looking something that won't be out of place with my new B&W setup. Would be the Velodyne Impact series be more in range or does the PL-200 still win out?

Excuse me for being so long winded, I appreciate you taking time to answer my questions!
Edited by kamiraa - 9/7/12 at 11:35am
post #19246 of 23133
Quote:
When you bi-amp with Audyssey doesn't the low side, get a high pass filter activated from the Audyssey side, and the high side, gets a low pass filter activated, then it gets the scaling of the EQ?

No. Receiver bi-amping just sends a duplicate signal, there is no internal active crossover which splits the signal between high/low. It doesn't matter how many times you split the signal after it leaves the processing stage, it's one channel per speaker, period.

Quote:
So if I wanted to Bi-amp my 9.2 setup, I could use the left , right, and backsurround left, and backsurround right (amp assigned) to get that processing. But if I went 11.2 , I couldn't bi amp could I? Sorry my question wasn't as clear earlier.

there are only 9 amps built in, so if you are running 9 channels or more, you can't bi-amp with the receiver's internal amps.

if you want to bi-amp with the external amp, you are simply splitting the RCA output to two channels on the external amp, so again it's really irrelevant how many channels you are running on the processor side.

Quote:
Do you have any suggestions on a kick ass sub ($500 price range each), or were you mentioning that the PL-200 is a adequate (kick ass) sub?

depends on your room size really but the ID sub manufacturers like Outlaw, HSU and SVS are a great place to start.

HSU VTF-2 MK4

Outlaw LFM-1 Plus

Both would be a major upgrade over the BIC in terms of having greater output, cleaner/tighter output, and much greater low end extension. If you add one, I would still use the PL-200 (since the 4311 supports dual subs) but maybe put it a little more nearfield to the listening position so it doesn't have to use as much gain to reach the same levels.
post #19247 of 23133
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

No. Receiver bi-amping just sends a duplicate signal, there is no internal active crossover which splits the signal between high/low.

Just a note..

The new Onkyo's from the 818 on up (XT32) now include active digital crossovers for bi-amping.
post #19248 of 23133
Hi there I just got mine and I am running 11.1 setup and have a question.

What mode is best for upconverting 2 channel, 5.1 and 7.1 to 11.1 there are a lot of modes and I am unsure what most people like best,
post #19249 of 23133
the ONLY way to get all the way to 11 channels is using Audyssey DSX to create heights/wides. DSX can only operate on standard 5.1 or 7.1 signals, so if you are getting a stereo input (or a 5.1 input and you want surround backs) you must use some other processing to get to that foundation for DSX to then operate. Most people will use PLIIx to scale the rest of the signal to the 7.1 "baseline" (2ch > 7.1 or 5.1 > 7.1) and then you must use Audyssey DSX to create the last four channels.
post #19250 of 23133
Thanks so much. I will use a PLiix to do this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

the ONLY way to get all the way to 11 channels is using Audyssey DSX to create heights/wides. DSX can only operate on standard 5.1 or 7.1 signals, so if you are getting a stereo input (or a 5.1 input and you want surround backs) you must use some other processing to get to that foundation for DSX to then operate. Most people will use PLIIx to scale the rest of the signal to the 7.1 "baseline" (2ch > 7.1 or 5.1 > 7.1) and then you must use Audyssey DSX to create the last four channels.
post #19251 of 23133
I have an Oppo BDP-93 and playing a SACD with the 4311 has been very frustrating. The DSD direct mode bass sounds full and very good but when I switch to Multi Ch In mode in becomes very thin and sounds poor. Audessey has set the bass to -3.5db and when I up the level to +7db it becomes comparable in bass levels to the DSD Direct mode. Why is this occurring? I have tried messing with different settings. (I posted this in wrong place earlier)
post #19252 of 23133
^^^

when you say "mch in mode" do you mean "analog mch in"? if so, the 10db bass boost that is required for sacd isn't being applied...

go to manual setup, audio setup, ext.in setup, subwoofer level, and set it to +10db...

iirc, the 93 should be applying the boost, it's possible you have it defeated in the player? i don't know, i don't use analog from mine...
post #19253 of 23133
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Just a note..
The new Onkyo's from the 818 on up (XT32) now include active digital crossovers for bi-amping.
Well isn't that something...that's a pretty cool feature.
post #19254 of 23133
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
when you say "mch in mode" do you mean "analog mch in"? if so, the 10db bass boost that is required for sacd isn't being applied...
go to manual setup, audio setup, ext.in setup, subwoofer level, and set it to +10db...
iirc, the 93 should be applying the boost, it's possible you have it defeated in the player? i don't know, i don't use analog from mine...

No, I mean "Multi CH IN" and I use HDMI not analog.
post #19255 of 23133
^Is that "active digital crossovers" for bi-amping feature really useful for most HT enthusiasts? To be effective, wouldn't that mean completely disconnecting your speaker's internal crossover, which was designed by experts specifically for those drivers in that cabinet, and hope you can do as well or better figuring out your own xover point and slopes? That's not gonna happen to my Dali Euphonias!eek.gif
post #19256 of 23133
Quote:
Originally Posted by alour View Post

I have an Oppo BDP-93 and playing a SACD with the 4311 has been very frustrating. The DSD direct mode bass sounds full and very good but when I switch to Multi Ch In mode in becomes very thin and sounds poor. Audessey has set the bass to -3.5db and when I up the level to +7db it becomes comparable in bass levels to the DSD Direct mode. Why is this occurring? I have tried messing with different settings. (I posted this in wrong place earlier)

I'm assuming you are listening to a MCH SACD. I have found that playing a 5.1 MCH SACD with my 4311 and 83SE using the DSD setting the LFE channel is lower than if I use the PCM setting. I do not recall the exact level differences but it is quite noticable. If I'm listening to MCH SACDs I use the PCM setting. So I would suggest trying both the DSD and PCM settings to see if you notice the difference. I'm not sure if it is a bug with the 4311 or the 83SE.

Bill
post #19257 of 23133
Quote:
Originally Posted by alour View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
when you say "mch in mode" do you mean "analog mch in"? if so, the 10db bass boost that is required for sacd isn't being applied...
go to manual setup, audio setup, ext.in setup, subwoofer level, and set it to +10db...
iirc, the 93 should be applying the boost, it's possible you have it defeated in the player? i don't know, i don't use analog from mine...

No, I mean "Multi CH IN" and I use HDMI not analog.

ok...

iirc, someone else ran into a similar issue with the bass boost not being properly applied... hoping jd or batpig can pull thatoff the top of their heads...

edit: fwiw... when people refer to mch in, they are generally refering to the analog inputs... not what is displayed on the avr when accepting a lpcm mch aignal...
post #19258 of 23133
Quote:
Originally Posted by alour View Post

I have an Oppo BDP-93 and playing a SACD with the 4311 has been very frustrating. The DSD direct mode bass sounds full and very good but when I switch to Multi Ch In mode in becomes very thin and sounds poor. Audessey has set the bass to -3.5db and when I up the level to +7db it becomes comparable in bass levels to the DSD Direct mode. Why is this occurring? I have tried messing with different settings. (I posted this in wrong place earlier)

Geeze, that difference is suggestive of complex LFE issues Chris and Bill are refering to. There is a setting under Surround parameters in Audio Adjust called LFE. Make sure that is not set below default 0dB.

Direct mode disables bass management and Audyssey. Is it the same when you play the stereo SACD layer DSD Direct vs Stereo mode? If so, and assuming we don't find some LFE -10 dB issue at work, and assuming you've correctly done Autosetup (which tries to shape the bass response towards refernce=flat) to, it may be that you prefer the sound of the unequalized bass. Your room may have some peaks in the low freqs that you are used to and sound full to your ears. In that case feel free to tweak the sub ch up to your preference as you have. But then gradually reduce it 0.5-1dB/week until you reach -3.5.
Edited by SoundofMind - 9/8/12 at 10:49am
post #19259 of 23133
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

... when people refer to mch in, they are generally refering to the analog inputs... not what is displayed on the avr when accepting a lpcm mch aignal...

Right. Those are correctly referred to as the Ext In inputs.
post #19260 of 23133
I know this can be a touchy subject, but...

For those that use external amps with their 4311, what RCA cables do you recommend? I know for digital cables Monoprice cables are more than sufficient, but for analog is there a go to cable? Any reason I shouldn't go with Monoprice's RCA cables?
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