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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 664

post #19891 of 23170
What a great description of the AVRXX12-13 series. My question is basic, excuse me if it's been answered elsewhere but after searching I can't find this answer. What is the difference between the AVR series and DRA? I'm an audiophile looking for the right receiver to set up with two tower speakers for a large room for all kinds of music. Thank you.
post #19892 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

I agree with the advice you've been given, but of course this is the 4311 thread. wink.gif Seriously, XT32 is worth paying extra.
How loud you play the system is not important in this matter.
I recommend being very discriminating about speakers and investing in the best ones you can afford. Good speakers and the best DSP room correction (XT32) will give you the biggest bang for the buck improvement in SQ.

 

Hi SoM....

 

Actually..... the biggest bang for the buck improvement in SQ comes from adding some bass traps and room treatments ;)  I know that not everyone can accommodate treatments thanks to WAF, but for anyone who doesn’t have that problem or has a dedicated room, appropriate treatments will make the biggest single improvement to SQ, ever

 

I treated my room a little while back and for less than $1,000 the difference is just amazing. It makes all discussion about which AVR or which amp etc just pale into insignificance. 

 

BTW, I know you know this - I am just 'spreading the word' :)

post #19893 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Oh, OK. But now we should talk about your investing in an Audyssey Pro Installer kit and licensing the 4311. With your gear, knowledge and enthusiasm for tweaking, you should really scale the final ascent to the consumer Audyssey summit. smile.gif

Thank you for the compliment smile.gif Maybe the Audyssey pro kit will be next. I just got Omnimic and have spent many hours tweaking. It's been one of the best investments I've made.

 

Just by way of helping spend your money <g>, I second SoM's suggestion of getting the Pro Kit for the 4311. Pro Kit plus OmniMic is a tweaker's dream and will enable you to go just about as far as it is possible to go in a domestic environment without winning the Lottery. (I know you have already applied room treatments).

post #19894 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by kklstereoquestio View Post

What a great description of the AVRXX12-13 series. My question is basic, excuse me if it's been answered elsewhere but after searching I can't find this answer. What is the difference between the AVR series and DRA? I'm an audiophile looking for the right receiver to set up with two tower speakers for a large room for all kinds of music. Thank you.

The DRA series are "stereo" only models which do not use Audyssey, and in these Denon AVR threads, we are very firm believers on the benefit of using Audyssey (w/stereo setups as well as surround setups). The DRA models are rarely (if ever) discussed in these AVR threads, so you may want to open your own thread asking for comments on the DRA models.
post #19895 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregavi View Post

Hi,
My 4311 has just started to not pass through HDMI when the unit is off. It has from day one, passed through the audio and video signal to my TV when it's off. I checked the menu under HDMI setup and all seems to be correct settings. I then tried a microprocessor reset. Nothing has worked that I have tried. Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance.
Happy Thanksgiving!

What device is your Standby Source? Neither audio nor video will pass? If just no audio, you may be trying to pass a DD/DTS 5.1 signal which the TV cannot accept. If both, you may need to cycle the settings and then power off and on each device.
post #19896 of 23170
Arrgg I still have another 1.5 week before the AVR to get here. So anxious, I hate living in an APO address.
post #19897 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Now you guys have to convince me I absolutely 'need' to replace my Oppo BDP-93:)
The newer BDP-103 is a LOT faster and has some nice new features... You know you want one... biggrin.gif

stop it! that's not what we need to hear... tongue.gif
post #19898 of 23170
I have the 103, and I gotta say it's a pretty sweet little piece of electronics.
post #19899 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi SoM...Actually..... the biggest bang for the buck improvement in SQ comes from adding some bass traps and room treatments wink.gif  I know that not everyone can accommodate treatments thanks to WAF, but for anyone who doesn’t have that problem or has a dedicated room, appropriate treatments will make the biggest single improvement to SQ, ever. I treated my room a little while back and for less than $1,000 the difference is just amazing. It makes all discussion about which AVR or which amp etc just pale into insignificance. BTW, I know you know this - I am just 'spreading the word' smile.gif
Hi Keith. I know that you know that I know. But then again I know that you know that the biggest bang for the buck improvement in SQ actually comes from proper speaker/MLP placement in the room...and that neither point has to do with the OP. biggrin.gif

BTW, to continue OT a bit, even serious hobbyists often come late to the room treatment step in the ongoing quest for better SQ. And often for very good reasons. For ex., I've put off formal room treatments for years, primarily because of poor WAF for panels and traps in my family room/HT/music room. But when I count my own precious recreational time (which is really about the music and film, not the tweaking), then learning enough about how to do proper room measurements and proper room treatments, installing, remeasuring, etc really doesn't really seem to add up to biggest "bang for the buck" for me anyway. And having a pro come in to do it means my writing a very big check. Also, I'm not sure how long I'll be using this room in this way-I could do a dedicated HT build or move to another house, who knows? My Dalis and XT32 will go where I go. smile.gif

So I've taken a practical approach and managed considerable SQ improvements by utilizing informal "naturalistic" solutions to the acoustic problems, and I post these thinking they may be of use to some others.

1. As mentioned above, speaker and MLP placement. Once I started using Audyssey and really thinking about my SQ and the room I realized I had plunked my speakers and listening chair down where they "looked" good. SQ was improved with Audyssey, but moving my speakers out away from the front wall and MLP out away from the back wall made a huge improvement at no cost and little time and effort. Allowing the ported speakers more room to breathe, decreasing room boundary effect, and better advantage of the angles of my cathedral ceiling, minimizing ceiling reflections at MLP all contributed.
2. Moving my original sub out of the corner, adding a second sub and doing a simple, measured sub crawl with placement of the subs to minimize room interaction helped a lot.
3. Addition of lined ("acoustic" and light-blocking) curtains over the many windows and a larger, more thickly padded area rug tamed the room general over-liveliness. Side wall first reflection points were similarly dealt with.

All that said, I'm certain there's MUCH more SQ yet to be gained from more sophisticated measurements and, back to your point, formal room treatments.

BTW, Keith, I'm glad your SQ has improved so much with the treatments (and, as you may have mentioned once or twice, those new subs wink.gif) . I'm interested in how you did your room treatments-have you posted details?
Edited by SoundofMind - 11/25/12 at 7:44am
post #19900 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

stop it! that's not what we need to hear... tongue.gif

I'm in the same boat tongue.gif do I or don't I?? wink.gif

most likely, I'd have to swap out the region-free mod but with HDMI inputs & even 4K scaling...hmmm

4K scaling I don't have a present need for since my Pio kuro still has leading black levels but it never hurts to "be prepared for the future" wink.gif it'll be next year anyway since my upgrade budget for '12 is about shot. The amazon & B&N criterion bluray deals have killed me eek.gif and I still want to get omnimic or xtz mic-software in Dec.

but I could see a new oppo in my future biggrin.gif
post #19901 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Bill - this is a known bug that occurs only with certain cable/sat boxes and ABT equipped Denon AVRs. The trigger for the loss of video processing is a resolution change (eg switching from a 1080i channel to a 720p channel).
Setting the box to output a fixed resolution is the only way to avoid this specific bug when using HDMI direct to receiver.
I just noticed this behavior myself with my Dish Hopper. I have the Hopper set to output 1080i/p, but when the Hopper reboots (after a freeze or the during evening restart), it swtiches its output resolution to 480p during the boot sequence. This seems to cause the AVR-4311CI to stop displaying the volume OSD. No biggie, I just switch the AVR off and back on, but it's a little weird. I'm just glad to know it's a known bug.
post #19902 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

stop it! that's not what we need to hear... tongue.gif

I've got both a 95 and a 105 (I had a 103 earlier in the beta cycle which got swapped for the 105) and the difference in speed (loading a Bluray disc, for example) is significant. The other new features, especially SMB support, are nice too. Just trying to help biggrin.gif.
post #19903 of 23170
My baby just arrived, with banana plugs. Boy let me tell you, them banana plug make my life SO much easier.









post #19904 of 23170
Wonderful pics. Can hardly wait to get mine.
post #19905 of 23170
Just got done with the auto setup, put on Avatar omg, the sounds open up some more. It's a bit brighter but I can hear sounds that never heard before. Auto setup is nice took me like 15 min to get it done with all the settings.
post #19906 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

stop it! that's not what we need to hear... tongue.gif

I've got both a 95 and a 105 (I had a 103 earlier in the beta cycle which got swapped for the 105) and the difference in speed (loading a Bluray disc, for example) is significant. The other new features, especially SMB support, are nice too. Just trying to help biggrin.gif.

well, i DO need to put something on my christmas list, since jerry and stuart got me to buy the darblet as a "thanksgiving present" instead of as a christmas present... smile.gif

who wants to buy a 93?
post #19907 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by englechgc View Post

I am currently running a denon 3808 and wanted to know if the jump from audyssey xt to xt 32 would be worthwhile. I also use the svs sub eq in my setup. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.1.gif

XT 32 is darn impressive. Much more so than I would have believed before hearing it.
post #19908 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by englechgc View Post

I am currently running a denon 3808 and wanted to know if the jump from audyssey xt to xt 32 would be worthwhile. I also use the svs sub eq in my setup. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.1.gif

 

There is indeed a difference.  For example, based on discussions and analysis in the Audyssey thread some time back, it was shown that XT32 focuses more on the low frequencies (where correction is most needed), and leaves the higher frequencies relatively the same.  XT focuses on the entire spectrum, expending resources on the top end and less on the low end.  I had a Denon 4308/AS-EQ1 combo.  When I upgraded to XT32, measurements showed that I could remove the AS-EQ1, because XT32 was doing an equally good job with the bass frequencies.  Add to that the good resale value of the AS-EQ1, and the upgrade to XT23 is compelling.

 

In summary, upgrading from XT to XT32 yields significant improvements.  Upgrading from the XT/AS-EQ1 combo to XT32 is an incremental improvement, but eliminates an extra component from the signal chain, and reduces the cost of the upgrade (because of the AS-EQ1 resale value).

post #19909 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by englechgc View Post

I am currently running a denon 3808 and wanted to know if the jump from audyssey xt to xt 32 would be worthwhile. I also use the svs sub eq in my setup. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.1.gif
Hi. The improved SQ from XT->XT32 has been pretty much universally acclaimed to be a worthwhile reason to upgrade. I replaced a 4310 and very glad I did. Here is one of many discussions on this topic. Here is a post referencing some of the technical foundation for the improvement.
post #19910 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by englechgc View Post

I am currently running a denon 3808 and wanted to know if the jump from audyssey xt to xt 32 would be worthwhile. I also use the svs sub eq in my setup. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.1.gif

 

The difference between XT and XT32 is substantial. But if you already have the SVS AS-EQ1, then you already have XT32 for the bass (which is the most important area for correction anyway). This will mean that you would notice less improvement switching from XT to XT32 than someone who does not have the EQ1 in his system. In fact, I made this exact change myself and I did not regret it - I sold my EQ1 for a good price, which went some way towards my new XT32-equipped Onkyo 5509 prepro. So in short, you would get some benefit from upgrading to XT32 but not as much as someone using XT alone.

 

The differences between the various versions of MultEQ are detailed in the Audyssey FAQ here:

 

h)2.   What is the difference between the various versions of MultEQ?

post #19911 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

well, i DO need to put something on my christmas list, since jerry and stuart got me to buy the darblet as a "thanksgiving present" instead of as a christmas present... smile.gif
who wants to buy a 93?

You're such an easy mark.....says the person lusting after a Lumagen Mini to have an excuse to jump down the calibration rabbit hole:). And after what you've put me through this year, I like the idea of somebody getting you to gratuitiously spend more of your money.

I'm resisting both the 4520 and 103 until further notice:p. Somebody's got to kick back and enjoy our 'legacy' equipment (even if it was state of the art in the distant days of summer).
post #19912 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

 
You're such an easy mark.....says the person lusting after a Lumagen Mini to have an excuse to jump down the calibration rabbit hole:). And after what you've put me through this year, I like the idea of somebody getting you to gratuitiously spend more of your money.

Oh yes!  Video Calibration is an entirely new warren! I'm using Calman 5, with a pattern generator. Great fun - a whole new world of charts and graphs :)

post #19913 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Oh yes!  Video Calibration is an entirely new warren! I'm using Calman 5, with a pattern generator. Great fun - a whole new world of charts and graphs smile.gif

That's where I'm eventually going - Calman and the Lumagen to do Auto Cal and a reasonably quality meter. After all, sooner or later we'll run out of stuff to do with Audyssey. Unless we move, or replace carpeting with wooden floors in the main listening room, in which case the fun starts all over again:).
post #19914 of 23170
I have been under the impression that video equipment like Calman and Lumagen are intended more for projectors than for LED flat panels like I have. Am I mistaken? My flat panel picture looks so good that I can't imagine it getting any better with these expensive additions. Besides, I need to save my budget for the Submersives. wink.gif
post #19915 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have been under the impression that video equipment like Calman and Lumagen are intended more for projectors than for LED flat panels like I have. Am I mistaken? My flat panel picture looks so good that I can't imagine it getting any better with these expensive additions. Besides, I need to save my budget for the Submersives. wink.gif

That's what I thought, but then I read a review like this:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/lumagen-radiance-mini-3d-201210152092.htm (they tested it with a Panny ST50)

or this:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/video-processors/video-processors-reviews/lumagen-radiance-xs-3d-video-processor/all-pages.html
(tested with a Samsung 50" plasma)

I wanted the Lumagen for a few other reasons having to do with screen stretch and the virtual input settings.

Besides, my ("our") Sony LEDs don't have real CMS controls, as most LED/Plasmas don't. Although every indication is that the picture is darned good with simpler calibration tweaks like the Spears & Muncil BluRay .....but why stop at that LOL?

And I'm looking at this as a long-term investment rather than a strict 'immediate' need.

Enjoy your Submersives though. "Gratuitous" to one is "essential" to another....otherwise, I'd still be using my SC-57 and AS-EQ1, in combination with a Pioneer Pro-930HD:).

Back to the 4311 talk, though....
Edited by sdrucker - 11/26/12 at 12:34pm
post #19916 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have been under the impression that video equipment like Calman and Lumagen are intended more for projectors than for LED flat panels like I have. Am I mistaken? My flat panel picture looks so good that I can't imagine it getting any better with these expensive additions. Besides, I need to save my budget for the Submersives. wink.gif

 

Oh no Jerry - calibration is great for panels too. I have a 65 inch Panasonic plasma and the difference my Calman 5 calibration made is astounding. The PQ was very good after just using DVE disc - - but the cal took it to a whole new level. But I'd use the cash for the Submersives first. :)

post #19917 of 23170
^^ Before I made my choice, I did a quick read-through of the UK equivalent of AVS, and apparently there's a few people that used calibration & Lumagen with their LED panels. Different philosophies, I suppose.
post #19918 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have been under the impression that video equipment like Calman and Lumagen are intended more for projectors than for LED flat panels like I have. Am I mistaken? My flat panel picture looks so good that I can't imagine it getting any better with these expensive additions. Besides, I need to save my budget for the Submersives. wink.gif

nope, you want to calibrate flat panels as well... prior to getting the pj, i had my kuros calibrated by umr, and the difference was not insignificant...

the thing that makes having the calibration equipment more "useful" if you have a pj is that as the lamp ages, the colors drift, and re-calibration on a regular basis is "worth it" (i'm possibly pickier about video than i am about audio, truth be told)... whereas in a flat panel, a calibration will hold steady for a good long time... the 8g kuro got a huge amount of use, and after it initially "settled down", it stayed "good" for several thousand hours (still is good ftm, but it doesn't get much use these days)...

also with a pj, the lumagen scaling algorithms really make a difference...
post #19919 of 23170
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

well, i DO need to put something on my christmas list, since jerry and stuart got me to buy the darblet as a "thanksgiving present" instead of as a christmas present... smile.gif
who wants to buy a 93?

You're such an easy mark.....says the person lusting after a Lumagen Mini to have an excuse to jump down the calibration rabbit hole:). And after what you've put me through this year, I like the idea of somebody getting you to gratuitiously spend more of your money.

I'm resisting both the 4520 and 103 until further notice:p. Somebody's got to kick back and enjoy our 'legacy' equipment (even if it was state of the art in the distant days of summer).

sadly, you are correct... i have a very hard time resisting shiny new toys... redface.gif

and yes, i suppose it's only fair you guys got me to spend some money after the damage i've done to you... biggrin.gif

after spending all day running wire and moving stuff around today* (what better way to spend a day off? tongue.gif ), i think i DESERVE a new toy... smile.gif

* i finally got all the electronics out of the theater room... now all i gotta do is glue everything back together again so i can actually use it... tongue.gif
post #19920 of 23170
^and update your build thread smile.gif .
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