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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 688

post #20611 of 23169
I have three Emotiva amps, none of them hum, they're dead silent.
post #20612 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I would be very hesitant to keep using the 10" sub as it really isn't substantial enough. Get a larger, more powerful sub to replace it. If you combine a good sub with one with poor performance Audyssey will limit the better sub to the performance of the lesser one. That's what happened when I combined a very capable 15" sub with a just o.k. 12" one.
I don't know the capability of the OP's sub but my old Polk PSW10 10" (MSRP $300) seemed OK to me, paired with Polk towers, when I first started this HT "kick" and reading this forum. But after reading more and more about better subs on the forums here, one day I turned off the speakers and just listened to the sub while playing some well-recorded music with a clean bass line and kick drum. As a bass player, I was aghast. Much of the time it was producing floppy muddy sounds that were not musical in the least. Now, I should mention that if you try this experiment you should be prepared for very odd sounds, as you are listening to mostly only the fundamental bass note (low E is 41Hz) without the overtones (mostly sounds in octave multiples of the fundamental) which add the tonality and character we're used to hearing.

So I went to some local hi-fi shops to demo their subs, mostly 10 and 12 inch, up to MSRP $1500, including some well-known brands. They sounded a little better, but not a thousand dollars better! I even briefly considering hauling my massive stage bass amp with its extended upper range ElectroVoice 15" instrument speaker into the family room as a "sub". But, technical considerations aside, that idea had exactly zero WAF! biggrin.gif

As I read more on the forums about subs, and room interactions with the LF, placement and EQ, I started considering subs like the Hsu but I really was attrcted by the features of the Velodyne DD series. I found a deal on a used DD10 (MSRP>$2K, 75%off) -still a 10" but the design, construction and Class D amp power was, needless to say, worlds apart from the Polk. The built-in SMS-1 measuring and EQ system was a nice plus, aiding in placement and displaying the room bass problem/modes. The remote control allowed me to easily change volume and even sub "modes" (movie mode optimizes sheer power at expense of accuracy vs music mode which optimizes accuracy, via a digitally controlled servo mechanism on the voice coil). With a better sub in a better location, and using the sub's EQ plus Audyssey MultEQ, the bass was much better. Good SQ improvement for less than $1K.

I'd thought that folks with multiple subs were probably just big fans of thumping film soundtrack LFE but then I came to understand how adding a second sub was not so much about volume but smooth LF response and clean "slam" when called for. So I picked up a similar deal on a second, identical DD10. I used the measurement system to do a measured "sub haul" and found opposite midwall placements quite good aesthetically and musically.

Oh, we haven't touched on an important issue irt subs: the cubic feet of the listening area. The second sub not only helped smooth the effect of room modes but also brought my "subwoofage" into the recommended range for my large fam room/HT area. Result: punchy clean bass, with slam-in-yer-chest/rock-the -room capability....and to my surprise, improved SQ throughout the freq spectrum! BTW, once I got XT32 and Audyssey Pro I stopped using the SMS active EQ in the subs. But I may play around with it once I get an independant measuring system like REW.

IMO there is some advantage to not mismatching subs. Now, would two DD12 (or the new DD12+) subs be even better? Or 4? Or other extreme high-end subs like the submersives? I don't know, but I'm happy with this setup and pretty sure it would be diminishing returns.
post #20613 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

Emotiva amps are notorious for hum.
Really? No. I have two, dead silent, like Theresa's. Roger is trying to guide the OP to see if he can isolate a ground problem, the most likely cause.
post #20614 of 23169
Roger,
sorry, i'm no experience power amp. Disconect 2 rca L & R rear the XPA-2. How and where do I touch two ground sleeves?
Thank you
post #20615 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

Emotiva amps are notorious for hum.

Unsupported generalizations like this are not helpful, and offer no advice to the person experiencing the issue. BTW, I don't have any hum from my XPA-3.
post #20616 of 23169
I agree on the amps also - that is being quiet. Have both an XPA3 and XPA2. Both are dead silent with my Denon AVR.
Edited by cavchameleon - 1/16/13 at 11:23am
post #20617 of 23169
Since Roger offline, anyone understand what Roger meant: "Touch the two ground sleeves together."
Where and how I touch two ground sleeves?
Thank you.
post #20618 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

Emotiva amps are notorious for hum.

 

What, all of them?  Every one of their large range of amps hums?  Do you have any evidence for a statement like that?  FWIW, I have four Emotiva amps (XPA-3 and 3 x UPA-2) and none of them hums. In fact they are totally silent.

post #20619 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4311ci View Post

Since Roger offline, anyone understand what Roger meant: "Touch the two ground sleeves together."
Where and how I touch two ground sleeves?
Thank you.

Plug an RCA cable into each amp input, then on the other end of the cables, touch the ground (outside portion) of RCA connector to each other (ground to ground). If the ground loop is in your amp, you'll have hum (do to a potential difference, which there should be none).
post #20620 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4311ci View Post

Since Roger offline, anyone understand what Roger meant: "Touch the two ground sleeves together."
Where and how I touch two ground sleeves?Thank you.
Glad you asked. I am not familiar with this procedure so I don't know the answer, but
Caution:
this sounds to me like a risky procedure. Be sure you clearly understood absolutely clear instructions as you go about attempting to isolate a gnd loop in this way. Just so you don't get a shock or blow anything up.eek.gif
post #20621 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Glad you asked. I am not familiar with this procedure so I don't know the answer, but
Caution:
this sounds to me like a risky procedure. Be sure you clearly understood absolutely clear instructions as you go about attempting to isolate a gnd loop in this way. Just so you don't get a shock or blow anything up.eek.gif

Agreed, Safety First - always. You are only touching low level inputs, but if not familiar or comfortable - best not to.

Thanks SOM.
post #20622 of 23169
Cavchameleon,
Could you specific about touch the ground (outside portion) of RCA connector please?
I have this RCA cable: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10236&cs_id=1023603&p_id=6306&seq=1&format=1#largeimage
Is the ground yellow round ring like in this picture Audio Figure A-1 showed?:
http://techpubs.sgi.com/library/tpl/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?coll=0630&db=bks&srch=&fname=/SGI_EndUser/O2_OG/sgi_html/apa.html
Thank you.
post #20623 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4311ci View Post

Cavchameleon,
Could you specific about touch the ground (outside portion) of RCA connector please?
I have this RCA cable: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10236&cs_id=1023603&p_id=6306&seq=1&format=1#largeimage
Is the ground yellow round ring like in this picture Audio Figure A-1 showed?:
http://techpubs.sgi.com/library/tpl/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?coll=0630&db=bks&srch=&fname=/SGI_EndUser/O2_OG/sgi_html/apa.html
Thank you.

It is the one marked ground/return. Be very careful not to touch the center connector (signal) together and don't touch the center connector with your hands.

If you are unsure about any of this, don't do it, get a qualified technician to look at it.
post #20624 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post

Trouble displaying Denon 3300 setup screen on monitor connected via HDMI to the 4311

I have a 2 zone setup, 1) my 4311 is the main AVR in my HT with both a plasma on monitor 1 and a projector on monitor 2 connected only via HDMI cables; then 2) from the Zone 2 preouts on the 4311 I connected the VCR2/AUX-in on a AVR3300. The 3300 is used to power speakers in other parts of our house and no monitor/tv is directly connected to it.

When I want to view the very low resolution 3300 AVR setup screen (using either composite or S-Video) I have to connect a cable directly to my plazma. I thought... why not connect a composite cable to something like the DVR input on the 4311 and with video convert enabled it should display on the plasma, right? NOT. Before I connect the composite to the DVR input the display from the 4311 works fine, but as soon as I connect the composite the display goes blank and nothing displays until I disconnect that cable. The video convert for the DVR input on the 4311 is set to Auto.

Is there some kind of funky loop causing this, or a video resolution issue that the 4311 can't handle?

On the 4311, in "Source Select" / "Input Assign" do you have DVR input under the heading "comp" set to "1-RCA" ?
post #20625 of 23169
Hey all, got my 4311 coming on Friday, but I had a quick question regarding the adding the AirPlay function. Is it just calling Denon and giving them the serial number and then it shows up as an option in the Upgrade Feature section in the receiver for free?
post #20626 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Unsupported generalizations like this are not helpful, and offer no advice to the person experiencing the issue. BTW, I don't have any hum from my XPA-3.

Unsupported? Ok, for you and the others that jumped down my throat for posting what you can find here on this forum and online by doing a little reseach. It's been discussed in the klipsch forum here as well. Good for those of you that havent had the problem, but there are some that have. I didnt say EVERY one has the issue.

For me this is a dead issue, but for those of you that are quick to jump on someone for posting something, do some homework first.

For reference, just one of many you can find by using Google. Fairly simple...

http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=amps&action=display&thread=21264&page=3

And since you failed to do research before jumping on me, I assume youll be just as lazy and not click the link... so one post from the above link....

"An update on the hum I am having. The other XPA-5 came yesterday and it has the same hum. I have pretty much ruled out
ground loop for several reasons. One, I disconnected cable ground right at the outside ground rod. Two, it happens in all locations with in the house and I even tried it at my girlfriends place. Three, the hum happens with just the amp plugged in and once I put more than one interconnect the hum starts weather the interconnect is connected on the other end or not. I also noticed the amp has no internal ground pin so ground loop should not be an issue? Am I wrong about this?

I noticed the transformers are pretty noisy so I put an oscope on the outputs and the trace was very noisy as well with high spikes. I compared it to all the other amps, receivers I have (total of four) all are dead quiet mechanically and sonically.

I did try many different scenario's which had little or no affect until I tried a friends high priced double shielded Cardas interconnects. It did quiet it down quiet a bit, but not all. To me this also tells me the problem is the amp. To me this is not an acceptable remedy as I shouldn't have to spend more on cables than the amps themselves when I did not need them before.

I must say I am very disappointed so far after trying to upgrade my system and now having hum. The positive is that the amps sound great so that makes it even more disappointing. I wish I did a little more research before buying because I see that this issue has come up many many times before and I cant seem to find any happy ending or endings at all. There are people out there not having this issue with theses amps I would like to be among them.

I will call tech support but I cant see how they can help other than replacing them with units with quiet transformers.

Frank
"
Edited by jconjason - 1/16/13 at 2:34pm
post #20627 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

Emotiva amps are notorious for hum.
No hum from my XPA-3
post #20628 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_r_ View Post

Hey all, got my 4311 coming on Friday, but I had a quick question regarding the adding the AirPlay function. Is it just calling Denon and giving them the serial number and then it shows up as an option in the Upgrade Feature section in the receiver for free?

markrubin wrote a nice writeup, this should help:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1304948/airplay-denon-marantz-faq-start-here
post #20629 of 23169
I believe the Input Assigns on the 4311 are for assignable, hdmi, digital coax and component (3 wire) video only.

The 3300 setup screen is only displayed via its composite or s-video outputs. I am connecting the 3300 composite monitor out to the 4311 DVR video-in using a single composite (yellow) video cable. Then the display problem ensues when the 4311 DVR source is selected (it should display the 3300 setup screen just as the tv does when the cable is directly connected to it instead of the 4311).
Edited by coolplazma - 1/16/13 at 4:33pm
post #20630 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

Unsupported? Ok, for you and the others that jumped down my throat for posting what you can find here on this forum and online by doing a little reseach. It's been discussed in the klipsch forum here as well...
OK, I think I get you now. Sorry you got put on the defensive, but your post was easily misconstrued. Sure, some folks have gotten an Emotiva amp that hums. And those of us who posted about their Emotiva being quiet are not trying to say it's absolutely not possible that it's the amp.

But the point of my response to you, for ex., was to establish that hum is not normal or expected for Emotiva and to get us back to the goal, to assist the OP in troubleshooting to find the cause. If it turns out to be the amp, the OP can take the apprpriate next step.

As for Klipsch owners and Emotiva, here's my theory. As you probably well know, those speakers are very efficient. Any noise in the system becomes very obvious with Klipsch. Sometimes the source of such noise is not the amp, sometimes it's a defective amp. Because of the popularity of the Emotiva brand amongst forum participants, the name on the amp may well be Emotiva. Let's move on, shall we?
post #20631 of 23169
Agreed, moved on.
post #20632 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post

I believe the Input Assigns on the 4311 are for assignable, hdmi, digital coax and component (3 wire) video only.

The 3300 setup screen is only displayed via its composite or s-video outputs. I am connecting the 3300 composite monitor out to the 4311 DVR video-in using a single composite (yellow) video cable. Then the display problem ensues when the 4311 DVR source is selected (it should display the 3300 setup screen just as the tv does when the cable is directly connected to it instead of the 4311).

You are correct about that, so that wouldn't have an effect.

Somethings not right then as it will definitely work if connected as you have described. I too own an AVR-3300, so I just tried it with mine and the 3300 setup menu comes up for me.
I'm just grasping here, but could you have connected it to the DVR output by mistake?
Edited by Brent A - 1/16/13 at 6:08pm
post #20633 of 23169
I found the Hum problem. smile.gif
Do Not purchase this kind cable from Monoprice.com:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10236&cs_id=1023603&p_id=6306&seq=1&format=2&Manually%20Entered
I bought 13 this kind cable for XPA-2, (2) Sub and on the way (2) XPA-5.
First thing I did with Hum issuse maybe bad cable, so exchange. But no way all 13 new cables are bad. Either my new XPA-2 OR 4311ci have Hum problem.
I tried Roger steps showed result No Hum on XPA-2. So my XPA-2 good.
I also tried steps Emotiva forum showed: 4311ci and XPA-2 loosened a chassis screw and clamped the wire underneath on the back......ran that to my surge protector which has a ground screw. Still Hum.
I so frustrated.
Some how I came up, how about use cheap regular basic Red & White RCA my old dvd player in storage.
Guest what: NO MORE HUM.
Now I do not know what to do with 13 new cables. Return shipping may cost same I bought these cables. This kind cable suspose is highest quality and most expensive RCA cable on Monoprice.com???

Thank you very much everyone help me out.
post #20634 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4311ci View Post

I found the Hum problem. smile.gif
Do Not purchase this kind cable from Monoprice.com...This kind cable suspose is highest quality and most expensive RCA cable on Monoprice.com?
Now that's odd. The whole batch is bad? Well, it's certainly much easier to replace cables than an amp. Every once in awhile I see a report of defective MP cables. Never seen a complaint about Bluejeans, but they're more expensive (and fewer folks order those).

BTW those cables are really overkill for ICs (interconnects) from pre to amp, kinda heavy and stiff. But that 75Ohm double shielded style is good for a sub cable.These http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10218&cs_id=1021814&p_id=2869&seq=1&format=2
less expensive RCA cables are what are more commonly used as ICs, in the shortest length that is practical.

I'd call Monoprice-they should pay return shipping on defective cables.
post #20635 of 23169
@4311ci,

Can,t argue with your results but FWIW I have three of those exact cables and No problem. The 3 are only used on subs in my case.confused.gif

Edit And a digital coax
post #20636 of 23169
Picked up my 4311 at Best Buy last night, this is probably my 12th or 13th avr and this one is by far the heaviest. Looking forward to setting it up over the next 2 days. 2 features I'm most excited about is 11.2 and the ability to balance out my 2 subs in a difficult room. I'm really pleased to have access to such a knowledgable and helpful forum.
post #20637 of 23169
4311CI,

How long were the monoprice cables? Were they 15 ft and perhaps the cheap ones were shorter?
I traced down one of the hums on my ATI amplifier to a digital coax cable connected to an older Pioneer dvd player.
I have yet to check whether the digital coax cable was the cause or whether it was the player though.
The cable was an old Monster, about 2 feet long is all.
post #20638 of 23169
I'm not going to dump all over monoprice and I'm absolutely NOT a baseless cable junky, but I was unhappy with the noise-floor from my 4311 Crown XLS1500 combo. At first I figured it was simply the nature of the pro-amp with a lesser S/N ratio than some more expensive home (and pro) models.

Don't get me wrong, it wasn't terrible, but with quiet passages or no input it was definitely discernible.

Finally just bit the bullet and found a VERY decent price on some (boo, hiss) Monster interconnects. My monoprice cables were not the mickey mouse variety either, but the "premium" versions.

Swapped em out....hiss was all-but gone at ~6 feet and for good measure (haha), I measured between the two (mono vs monster) and found a 6+ db difference.

I've saved a fair bit of cash with monoprice- heck their speaker wire prices alone make them worthwhile- but I don't consider them the be-all end-all of A/V accessories. I believe full-well the issue 4311ci and others have run into with some of their interconnects.

James
post #20639 of 23169
Culliganman,
15ft cable, these cables are high quality with this distance should not be problem right?
I have not use cable for sub yet.
(2) XPA-5 will arrive today, i'll test these cables again.
What should I set my 4311ci to use all 11.2 channel external AMP in Audyssey Auto Setup: Amp Assign?
Thank you.
post #20640 of 23169
^^+1 James
What I've done from time to time is search Amazon and Amazon-linked stores for crazy good deals (80%+ discounts) on brand-name (yes, often Monster) cables.
Edited by SoundofMind - 1/17/13 at 7:29am
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