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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 689

post #20641 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4311ci View Post

Culliganman,
15ft cable, these cables are high quality with this distance should not be problem right?...
No, not right. NO WAY I'd run 15' RCA cables from pre to amp. That's line level signal and you're just asking for noise and signal degradation. Like I said, minimum practical length for that application.
post #20642 of 23162
^ Precisely. Honestly, I've never had a Monster cable fail me and they're really only expensive if you're too lazy (or, sorry, ignorant) to use the www and forgo the waltz into best buy.


James
post #20643 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ Precisely. Honestly, I've never had a Monster cable fail me and they're really only expensive if you're too lazy (or, sorry, ignorant) to use the www and forgo the waltz into best buy.
I actually did have several Monster Cable cables fail on me over the years. I've never had an issue with anything I've gotten from Blue Jeans Cable.
post #20644 of 23162
blue jean is fine but significantly more expensive than monoprice or (well searched) monster at 45-$55 a pair, shipped.

here we go.

who's up next in the anecdotal, off topic, cable-comparison?

that I started, lol.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 1/17/13 at 7:37am
post #20645 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4311ci View Post

Culliganman,
15ft cable, these cables are high quality with this distance should not be problem right?
I have not use cable for sub yet.
(2) XPA-5 will arrive today, i'll test these cables again.
What should I set my 4311ci to use all 11.2 channel external AMP in Audyssey Auto Setup: Amp Assign?
Thank you.

If it were me I would try to avoid 15 ft of rca cable but I know that with some installations it might be unavoidable. The longer the cable the more chance for hum, but it is not a guarantee for hum.
Just try to use as short of cable as possible. So are you saying you had hum with the 15 ft cable and not with the cheapy 3 ft ones?

As for the amp assign, hopefully batpig or another expert will chime in, but I think I would use the pre amp mode since you say you have 11 channels of external amplification, if I understand you correctly.
post #20646 of 23162
SoundofMind,
Working RCA also 15ft.
post #20647 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

I actually did have several Monster Cable cables fail on me over the years. I've never had an issue with anything I've gotten from Blue Jeans Cable.

I've had several Monster cables fail as well. Mostly it was the RCA ends falling apart and the leads getting broken off. You can't go wrong with Bluejeans RCA cables. A whole different level of build quality over older Monster cables I still have (but do not use).

Bill
post #20648 of 23162
^4311ci
Hmmm...I'd envisioned the xtra cabling length picking up 60Hz hum from running parallel next to a power cord, or some similar scenario. I thought that a more likely explanation than a whole batch of bad cables. I guess we'll see what happens when you test them with the XPA5.

As my 4311 is on the next shelf up, just above my amp, I use .5m or 1m ICs.
post #20649 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^^+1 James
What I've done from time to time is search Amazon and Amazon-linked stores for crazy good deals (80%+ discounts) on brand-name (yes, often Monster) cables.

I've done that too. The thing to remember that its not the discount but the bottom line price for what you get that matters.

Most of my good buys on MC have been close-outs at Parts Express, if memory serves.

One thing to look out for is the fact that Monster often uses 13 gauge as their largest actual speaker cable, which is not quite as good as commodity 12 gauge.
post #20650 of 23162
^+1
Caveat Emptor
post #20651 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4311ci View Post

Culliganman,
15ft cable, these cables are high quality with this distance should not be problem right?...
No, not right. NO WAY I'd run 15' RCA cables from pre to amp. That's line level signal and you're just asking for noise and signal degradation. Like I said, minimum practical length for that application.

The above is probably an more an true confession about skills at setting up a good installation than a factual comment about the limits of audio technology.

There's no reason other than configuration and set up problems, to have audible noise with a 15 foot line level cable.

I've done it successfully every time I tried of dozens, although it was not always a slam dunk.

The most likely source of noise is a ground loop (hum) and you can get that just as easily with 15 inches of cable as 15 feet.

Another source of noise is poor gain-staging. Always run the volume control at the far end as low as possible consistent with low distortion.

Then there are the eternal possibilities of a damaged cable (usually bad termination) or loose connector. I've repaired dozens of bad cables, some right out of the wrapper.
post #20652 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent A View Post

You are correct about that, so that wouldn't have an effect.

Somethings not right then as it will definitely work if connected as you have described. I too own an AVR-3300, so I just tried it with mine and the 3300 setup menu comes up for me.
I'm just grasping here, but could you have connected it to the DVR output by mistake?

Thanks for testing it out. Nope, it is connected correctly (or at least the way I intended). Last night while using my Sony HW30 projector (monitor 2 on the 4311) I tested seeing the 3300 setup screen again (via the 4311 DVR video-in). From the projector I see flashes of the 3300 setup screen text but it never remains up (the flashing output looks like what you get when you have a bad HDMI cable, but I am 100% confident that is not the issue here as all my other sources work perfectly including HD and 3D to either the tv or projector via those same HDMI cables).

UPDATE:
So this morning I tested some of the 4311 DVR video settings, moving from "Auto" resolution to anything but 1080p and the display now works. It seems "Auto" may have been picking 1080p because that is the only one that fails to display. "Movie" mode also looks better than "Game" so I fixed the setting to Movie too.

All working now. The 3300 popup display screens from its monitor out now appear correctly on the tv connected to the 4311 via HDMI.
Edited by coolplazma - 1/17/13 at 8:50am
post #20653 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I've had several Monster cables fail as well. Mostly it was the RCA ends falling apart and the leads getting broken off. You can't go wrong with Bluejeans RCA cables. A whole different level of build quality over older Monster cables I still have (but do not use).

Bill

Well, I suppose seeing that monster likely manufactures and sells 100,000 cables for every one that blue jeans does, it of course should surprise no one that there will be a significant number more failures with monster.

It sucks for you guys to be sure, I've literally used hundreds on my own gear and installs and never had an issue- take that back, I DID have a mesh covering break away from the end of an optical, but that was purely cosmetic- cable still worked fine.

To be sure though, I'd NEVER pay blue jeans OR monsters MSRP...simply ridiculous to pay $40-$60 for a single pair of analog interconnects, IMO.

YMMV.

James
post #20654 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Well, I suppose seeing that monster likely manufactures and sells 100,000 cables for every one that blue jeans does, it of course should surprise no one that there will be a significant number more failures with monster.
Having examined the Monster Cable products I had that failed, it was no wonder they failed due to sub-par assembly techniques.
Quote:
To be sure though, I'd NEVER pay blue jeans OR monsters MSRP...simply ridiculous to pay $40-$60 for a single pair of analog interconnects, IMO.
To me, pricing is a somewhat secondary consideration. Based on my experience, I wouldn't use Monster Cable products if they were offered to me for free.
post #20655 of 23162
Quote:
To me, pricing is a somewhat secondary consideration. Based on my experience, I wouldn't use Monster Cable products if they were offered to me for free.

that's so hardcore. I'm certain the humans and machines putting blue jean interconnects together are infinitely superior, as is their QC. awesome

James
post #20656 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

that's so hardcore. I'm certain the humans and machines putting blue jean interconnects together are infinitely superior, as is their QC. awesome

James

I might not say Bluejeans cables are "infinitely superior" to Monster cables. But the materials and the build quality is much better with the Bluejeans cables. I'm not sure if you have compared the two but it is quite obvious when you do a comparison IMO.

Bill
post #20657 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The above is probably an more an true confession about skills at setting up a good installation than a factual comment about the limits of audio technology. There's no reason other than configuration and set up problems, to have audible noise with a 15 foot line level cable...
Point well taken. That's why I said I wouldn't use such a 15' cable between pre and amp. If I had to contend with such a distance at line level, I'd use XLR, so the 4311 wouldn't be the right pre/pro. For me. I have my 4311 on the next shelf up from the amp, close enoughto use .5m if I chose.
post #20658 of 23162
This cable talk brings up a question for my Zone2 setup...

Is there a better/preferred method of connecting a zone from a 4311 to a 3300 other than using the 4311's analog zone preouts and connecting those to any old (aka "miscellaneous") pre-in on a 3300?

The audio I'm hearing from my "large" mains connected to the 3300 is less that impressive... much less punch than when they were in the same room and run from the 4311. Now connected to the 3300 as my zone 2 mains in our living room, these are not EQ'd as they were when run from the 4311. I am using the 3300 as a basic amp for our speakers in the house which reside outside of our HT room. The mains (2-Definitive Tech ST w/powered subs) are connected with 45/55ft runs of 12ga monoprice wire, no LFE.

The audio sources we want access to in the zone2-3300 include: net/usb from the 4311, sat/cable (directv), dvd (used as multi disc cd player). I've interconnected the latter sources directly to the 3300, so only the net/usb is needed from the 4311. Net/usb (Pandora, and my media share server) has become our main source for music.

Suggestions?
Edited by coolplazma - 1/17/13 at 11:02am
post #20659 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I might not say Bluejeans cables are "infinitely superior" to Monster cables. But the materials and the build quality is much better with the Bluejeans cables. I'm not sure if you have compared the two but it is quite obvious when you do a comparison IMO.

Bill

I suppose they very well could be. The "problem" is that monster offers a veritable myriad of models...from $20msrp to $800 (yes, $800). I tend to use the 400i series which can usually be had for ~$25 a pair. The old THX 600 series were very nice as well and extremely reasonable in price.

You know I have a pair of bj-1's and a pair of 600's laying around, I may just do a tear down just for $hits.

James
post #20660 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post

This cable talk brings up a question for my Zone2 setup...

Is there a better/preferred method of connecting a zone from a 4311 to a 3300 other than using the 4311's analog zone preouts and connecting those to any old (aka "miscellaneous") pre-in on a 3300?

The audio I'm hearing from my "large" mains connected to the 3300 is less that impressive... much less punch than when they were in the same room and run from the 4311. Now connected to the 3300 as my zone 2 mains in our living room, these are not EQ'd as they were when run from the 4311. I am using the 3300 as a basic amp for our speakers in the house which reside outside of our HT room. The mains (2-Definitive Tech ST w/powered subs) are connected with 45/55ft runs of 12ga monoprice wire, no LFE.

The audio sources we want access to in the zone2-3300 include: net/usb from the 4311, sat/cable (directv), dvd (used as multi disc cd player). I've interconnected the latter sources directly to the 3300, so only the net/usb is needed from the 4311. Net/usb (Pandora, and my media share server) has become our main source for music.

Suggestions?

I'd imagine the "new" room has more to do with the change in sound than anything else. That AND the stripping of Audyssey in the second zone.

Suppose you try an optical from the 4311 to the 3300, but that would limit you to playing whatever is on in the main zone.

James
post #20661 of 23162
coolplazma's problem has me thinking again about how nice it would be to able to run Audyssey XT 32 to second zone.

Almost certainly will not be happening anytime soon, to be sure, but some folks have another room with some decent stuff going that could really benefit.

James
post #20662 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post

This cable talk brings up a question for my Zone2 setup...

Is there a better/preferred method of connecting a zone from a 4311 to a 3300 other than using the 4311's analog zone preouts and connecting those to any old (aka "miscellaneous") pre-in on a 3300?

The audio I'm hearing from my "large" mains connected to the 3300 is less that impressive... much less punch than when they were in the same room and run from the 4311. Now connected to the 3300 as my zone 2 mains in our living room, these are not EQ'd as they were when run from the 4311. I am using the 3300 as a basic amp for our speakers in the house which reside outside of our HT room. The mains (2-Definitive Tech ST w/powered subs) are connected with 45/55ft runs of 12ga monoprice wire, no LFE.

The audio sources we want access to in the zone2-3300 include: net/usb from the 4311, sat/cable (directv), dvd (used as multi disc cd player). I've interconnected the latter sources directly to the 3300, so only the net/usb is needed from the 4311. Net/usb (Pandora, and my media share server) has become our main source for music.

Suggestions?

First of all I am not sure I understand where the 3300 is located. If it is in the home theater room near the 4311, why not just use the 4311 zone 2 speaker out instead of the zone 2 preout to the 3300?
One reason would be if you are using the 4311 sback, front height, and front wide already.
In other words don't use the 3300 at all. Page 72 and 95
It is quite possible I don't understand, but just thought I'd throw that out there.
post #20663 of 23162
^ that's the assumption I made (that he's already using all of the amp channels).

Or maybe he just wants to utilize a dedicated amplifier to drive them, those are nice loudspeakers.

Which brings me my audyssey in the second zone question again: so long as the mic could reach, could not measurements be taken, stored, and applied to the second zone? Surely a second set of DSPs wouldn't be that pricey, especially for upper models like the 4311.

I really think a good number (including me wink.gif ) would really go for this.


James
post #20664 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by culliganman View Post

First of all I am not sure I understand where the 3300 is located. If it is in the home theater room near the 4311, why not just use the 4311 zone 2 speaker out instead of the zone 2 preout to the 3300?
One reason would be if you are using the 4311 sback, front height, and front wide already.
In other words don't use the 3300 at all. Page 72 and 95
It is quite possible I don't understand, but just thought I'd throw that out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ that's the assumption I made (that he's already using all of the amp channels).

Or maybe he just wants to utilize a dedicated amplifier to drive them, those are nice loudspeakers.

Which brings me my audyssey in the second zone question again: so long as the mic could reach, could not measurements be taken, stored, and applied to the second zone? Surely a second set of DSPs wouldn't be that pricey, especially for upper models like the 4311.

I really think a good number (including me wink.gif ) would really go for this.


James

Correct, both my 4311 and 3300 are co-located in the HT room which I intended as the AV hub. The HT (4311) itself is using all 9 amp channels for speakers in that room. I wired the rest of our main floor for another 6 speakers (currently with only 2 towers active), which meant a distribution hub would be needed at a minumum to power all the zone 2 speakers. Also, we did want the ability to play separate audio in each zone (ie: wife listens to music while something else is playing in the HT) so that is another prime reason to use the zone 2 outs from the 4311 and not amp channels or rec-monitor out.

Just for fun, initially I connnected the 2 living room towers to the 4311 wide-output and assigned that as zone 2, temporarily loosing 2ch in my HT. Even though the towers were not EQ'd in that config, I think the audio was noticably superior over the current 2nd amp config (3300 connected via analog cables).
Edited by coolplazma - 1/17/13 at 12:47pm
post #20665 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post

Thanks for testing it out. Nope, it is connected correctly (or at least the way I intended). Last night while using my Sony HW30 projector (monitor 2 on the 4311) I tested seeing the 3300 setup screen again (via the 4311 DVR video-in). From the projector I see flashes of the 3300 setup screen text but it never remains up (the flashing output looks like what you get when you have a bad HDMI cable, but I am 100% confident that is not the issue here as all my other sources work perfectly including HD and 3D to either the tv or projector via those same HDMI cables).

UPDATE:
So this morning I tested some of the 4311 DVR video settings, moving from "Auto" resolution to anything but 1080p and the display now works. It seems "Auto" may have been picking 1080p because that is the only one that fails to display. "Movie" mode also looks better than "Game" so I fixed the setting to Movie too.

All working now. The 3300 popup display screens from its monitor out now appear correctly on the tv connected to the 4311 via HDMI.

No problem. Now that I have been been spoiled with Airplay and controlling the 4311 via my iPhone and iPad, I'm considering doing the same thing you are doing with my 3300 and use it to power some speakers upstairs.

Interesting, I'm pretty sure all of my 4311's video settings are set to Auto as well. I'll have to double check them tonight just to clear my curiousity.
Either way, glad you got it working though.
Edited by Brent A - 1/17/13 at 1:12pm
post #20666 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post


Just for fun, initially I connnected the 2 living room towers to the 4311 wide-output and assigned that as zone 2, temporarily loosing 2ch in my HT. Even though the towers were not EQ'd in that config, I think the audio was noticably superior over the current 2nd amp config (3300 connected via analog cables).

That is interesting, I went from an AVR-3802 to the 4311CI and I don't see that much difference (without Audessey). I plan on a first impression and a bit of comparison to the 3802 in the very near future.
Right now I am still playing with things having had it for only a few days.
post #20667 of 23162
I've had the 4311 for some time and am now just looking at Audyssey Dynamic Volume vs Dolby Volume. No good answer to this issue in Search. I'm hoping for guidance here in this forum.

Which one of these technologies, if any, will attenuate unwantedly loud commercials or other undesired loud sounds w/o losing any or at least no significant loss in dynamic range?

With Blu-ray (movies), I want full dynamic range. Does this mean Dolby Volume OFF and Audyssey MultiEQ XT 32 set to Audyssey, Dynamic EQ: ON, Reference Level Offset: 0db, Dynamic Volume: OFF, or some other arrangement? For TV viewing, other than watching movies, I can presumably tolerate some loss in dynamic range in order to soften the loud commercials. Which is recommended, Dynamic Volume or Dolby Volume and which specific settings for the recommended technology? Watching movies on TV, do I use the Blu-ray setting? Since there is a dedicated Dynamic EQ/VOL button on the remote and not for Dolby Volume, would it make sense to choose Dynamic Volume when making changes while watcing TV?
post #20668 of 23162
Quote:
Originally Posted by toneil44 View Post

I've had the 4311 for some time and am now just looking at Audyssey Dynamic Volume vs Dolby Volume. No good answer to this issue in Search. I'm hoping for guidance here in this forum.

Which one of these technologies, if any, will attenuate unwantedly loud commercials or other undesired loud sounds w/o losing any or at least no significant loss in dynamic range?

With Blu-ray (movies), I want full dynamic range. Does this mean Dolby Volume OFF and Audyssey MultiEQ XT 32 set to Audyssey, Dynamic EQ: ON, Reference Level Offset: 0db, Dynamic Volume: OFF, or some other arrangement? For TV viewing, other than watching movies, I can presumably tolerate some loss in dynamic range in order to soften the loud commercials. Which is recommended, Dynamic Volume or Dolby Volume and which specific settings for the recommended technology? Watching movies on TV, do I use the Blu-ray setting? Since there is a dedicated Dynamic EQ/VOL button on the remote and not for Dolby Volume, would it make sense to choose Dynamic Volume when making changes while watcing TV?

The Audyssey setup docs have a section covering dynamic range and volume, see:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/5700#post_14456895

My general rule-of-thumb preferences:

1. Always leave Dynamic EQ = ON

2. As you approach reference volume levels the need for any Dynamic Volume decreases. It also depends on the dialog clarity both from the source material and your components. Usually I use more Dynamic Volume adjustment as my playback volume decreases.

For example,
Playing BD at higher volumes (ie, an absolute level above 60 of 100) I use Dynamic Volume = OFF, otherwise the mid/vocals are abnoxiously loud.
All other occasions/sources, for "loud" (level of 50-60) listening I set Dynamic Volume = DAY. Usually at levels lower than 50, set Dynamic Volume = EVENING

3. Broadcast content range is difficult to predict or set/forget, and so you'll need to adjust depending on how it sounds to you. Note, some cable/sat boxes have a audio leveling feature of their own, so this can help a lot from that source.

4. Other than a "skip" button on DVRs, the all-time ultimate solution for commercials has always been MUTE.
post #20669 of 23162
@ toneil44:

Two key things to understand:

- First, be aware that Dolby Volume has features that encompass BOTH of Dynamic EQ (loudness compensation) and Dynamic Volume (dynamic range compensation). There are two separate settings for Dolby Volume -- the "Volume Modeler" aspect is the equivalent of Dynamic EQ, and the "Volume Leveler" aspect is the equivalent of Dynamic Volume.

- Second, the implementation of Dolby Volume is somewhat hamstrung in that it CANNOT be combined with the XT32 room correction filters! That means you can't "layer" the Dolby Volume technology on top of your EQ filters as a substitute for Dynamic EQ/Vol. Turning on Dolby Volume turns OFF the Audyssey MultEQ filters. So in that sense, assuming you actually like the room correction, it's at a huge disadvantage.

I think that Dolby Volume was included to enhance the feature spec list for a "flagship" type product, but in a wink-wink-nudge-nudge sort of way it wasn't really intended to be used. Denon is pretty committed to the Audyssey package of technologies. Even the fact (which you point out) that MultEQ and Dynamic EQ/Vol have dedicated buttons on the remote whereas Dolby Volume doesn't lends credence to this idea.

So Dolby Volume does the same thing as Dynamic EQ/Volume, but the sacrifice of the MultEQ room correction and the convenience of having dedicated buttons on the remote means that, for practical purposes, you should use the Audyssey versions.

As to your other questions....

For movie viewing with "full bore no dynamic range restriction" viewing you are correct, the settings should be as you described: Audyssey MultiEQ XT 32 set to Audyssey, Dynamic EQ: ON, Reference Level Offset: 0db, Dynamic Volume: OFF

That is the "reference" setting for high quality film source viewing. If you find that a particular action movie is too intense with the volume spikes (e.g. you end up riding the volume a bit to hear dialogue but then turn it down during the action scenes) you can engaged Dynamic Volume as needed.

For TV it's personal preference, but a good starting point would be: Dynamic EQ: ON; Ref Level Offset = 10dB, Dynamic Volume = EVENING

The Dynamic EQ/Vol button on the remote will cycle between the five Dyn EQ/Vol states: both OFF, Dyn EQ: ON with Dyn Vol: OFF, and then the three Dyn Vol levels (Day > Evening > Midnight). So it's pretty easy to test for yourself and see what works for you.

For TV movie viewing, I honestly wouldn't bother digging into the menus to change the Ref Level Offset, there's no guarantee that the broadcast hasn't messed with the audio levels and it's unlikely that you will get "reference" sound like off a DVD or Blu-ray. So you can turn Dyn Vol off if you want, since that's easy, but otherwise I would leave it as is.
post #20670 of 23162
My 4311ci just downloaded new firmware .... Anyone know what this update fixes? Thanks!
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