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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 697

post #20881 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Of course Denon players do work well. I don't know if there is some IR or control feature advantage but one big advantage of a Denon player for the 4311 is those hi-end Denon players that have DenonLink3 or 4. This yields an improvement in SQ of music due to jitter reduction.

DenonLink 3 doesn't have jitter reduction. I have a 4310, not a 43111, so I'm not sure--but the 4311 manual clearly states that DL3 is not supported. Tell me if I'm wrong...
post #20882 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

DenonLink 3 doesn't have jitter reduction. I have a 4310, not a 43111, so I'm not sure--but the 4311 manual clearly states that DL3 is not supported. Tell me if I'm wrong...

I'm not well versed in Denon Link and if it actually offers jitter reduction. But I'm quite sure the 4311 has a DL3 input and that it works. So I'm not sure where in the 4311 manual it states that DL3 is not supported.

Bill
post #20883 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

DenonLink 3 doesn't have jitter reduction. I have a 4310, not a 43111, so I'm not sure--but the 4311 manual clearly states that DL3 is not supported. Tell me if I'm wrong...
From page 29 of the 4311 owner's manual:
Quote:
When a Blu-ray disc is played with the input mode set to "Auto", playback is performed in the DENON LINK 4th mode. When a disc other than a Blu-ray disc is played with the input mode set to "Auto", playback is automatically performed in the DENON LINK 3rd mode.

The 4311 supports DL4, which means it is backwards compatible with DL3. IIRC, jitter reduction only applies to DL4, which the text in the manual (I didn't paste it all as the PDF wouldn't let me select and copy and I was too lazy to type it all in by hand) seems to support.
post #20884 of 23178
DENONLINK stuff I've picked up over the past year or two. DL3 appears to have jitter reduction:

http://www.jbmaudio.net/index.php?topic=2029.0
High-grade LPCM 24-bit/96-kHz for 6-channel or 24-bit/192-kHz for 2-channel digital input is possible when the AVC-A1SR is connected via a shielded twisted pair (STP) cable to a Denon DVD player that
supports Denon Link. Since Denon Link uses low-voltage differential signaling (LVDS), transfer capabilities of greater than 1.2 Gbps at a differential voltage of approximately 0.3 Vpp are possible. DENON LINK has just been upgraded to the 3rd edition. The new edition now allows the input of Super Audio CD digital signals as well as DVD-Video/Audio.To transfer audio signals, DENON has developed a unique digital transmission technology, known as DENON LINK. This digitally balanced transfer technology permits jitter-less data transfer and low noise.

http://www.audioholics.com/news/press-releases/denon-link-3rd-edition-released-sacd-compatible
"DENON LINK is a digital interface that uses high-speed transfer elements made possible with balanced transmission to achieve high-speed, high-grade digital transmission in real time and with negligible signal degradation. DENON LINK enables direct transmission of PCM 24-bit, 192-kHz digital signals, jitter-free and with high SN, from DVD-Audio, Super Audio CD, and other sources featuring high speed and high sound quality.


The big diff for DL4 is that DL4 uses the DL connection just for clock info (which is used to reduce jitter), not the signal info. DL4 is only for Bluray, and the signal is sent over HDMI as usual:

What is DENON LINK 4th?
Digital Audio Signal
Sound that reaches human ears is made up of vibrating air that continually exists over time. Audio devices transform these vibrations into an electric signal. Sometimes the signal is an analog audio signal (smooth waveform), and sometimes it is quantified to become a digital audio signal (staircase waveform).
The digital audio signal samples the waveform of the analog audio signal at fixed intervals as it passes continuously over time and quantifies it into binary values consisting of 1 and 0. Since quantification enables the digital audio signal to be expressed as a waveform, it is negligibly affected by noise; as can be heard when listening to a CD, the sound of the music is very clear and virtually noise-free. The digital audio signal also suffers little degradation when edited and is therefore easily processed for use on various media such as CD, DVD, and Blu-ray disc.
In reality, however, digital audio signals are not entirely free of noise, as they have a distortion known as clock jitter that affects sound quality.
The Existence of Jitter
Digital audio devices are equipped with a clock that generates a time axis for quantized digital signals. The clock generates a time axis for use when signals are converted from digital to analog or from analog to digital. Jitter occurs when intervals along the time axis (the samples) fluctuate. The fluctuations along the time axis cause distortion in the sound.
Jitter mainly occurs due to a lack of accuracy in the clock itself and along the signal transmission path. To support media such as Blu-ray and DVD (video + audio), players need to have multiple clocks, and with Blu-ray and DVD, the video and audio signals need to be synchronized.
Generally, PLL is used to generate clock signals, but they are easily affected by noise during transmission which in turn causes jitter and degrades sound quality.
In recent years, greater attention is being focused on the importance of a master clock for the constant management of sampling at fixed intervals.
Conventional Jitter Suppression
In conventional jitter suppression, the digital audio signal (data) was temporarily stored in the front-stage memory of the audio circuit and output after being synchronized with the clock to achieve low-jitter digital signal transmission.
This method, however, was limited to audio sources on CD. There were basically two reasons for this. The first reason was that the clock frequencies of audio circuits were different from those of video circuits, and the second reason was that while the quantity of audio-only data was not that large and could be stored in memory, the quantity of video data and multi-channel audio data on DVD or Blu-ray disc is too large to store in memory.

The Advent of DENON LINK 4th, the world's first jitter suppression technology to include video signals

We have succeeded in using DENON LINK (a digital interface) as a dedicated clock signal transmission line to transmit high-grade digital signals in high speed and with negligible influence from external noise. Previously, the purpose of DENON LINK was to transmit the digital audio signals themselves, but the purpose of DENON LINK 4th is to control the clock.
DENON LINK 4th uses the master clock in the A/V surround receiver as the reference for controlling the video circuitry and the disc drive in the player, and the digital video and audio signals from Blu-ray disc are transmitted to the A/V surround receiver via an HDMI cable. This is how our DENON LINK 4th works.
DENON LINK 4th is able to transmit digital audio signals with negligible jitter because it has audio devices share the same clock. In addition, DENON LINK 4th has achieved a world first by suppressing jitter to an absolute minimum even for the playback of Blu-ray discs that include video signals.
Jitter suppression brings exceptional results to three-dimensional playback in such areas as sound localization, sound spaces and sound images. The sound space of a concert hall, for instance, is reproduced so clearly that it feels as though the artists are performing in very close proximity to the listener.
February 13, 2009
post #20885 of 23178
The entire point of DenonLink is jitter reduction. On older legacy versions, it allowed for a hi rez digital data connection that wasn't previously possibly before the advent of HDMI (SPDIF couldn't carry hi-rez multich). But the whole principle is that, in addition to a high rez connection, it transmits the clock sync data, which is done specifically to avoid jitter in digital signal transfer. Obviously these days that aspect gets more emphasis, since otherwise there would be no marketable advantage over HDMI, which can support the necessary data transfer rates for hi rez multich.
post #20886 of 23178
I am thinking of ordering the main remote from the 4311 to operate my secondary receiver which is a 3808........anyone know of any issues with doing this. I would hope the CH LEVEL Button would work on the 3808 with the 4311 remote (I think it will).
post #20887 of 23178
Anyone heard anything about the Pandora firmware update to fix the Internet radio GUI issue? It seems like this has been going on for quite some time without a fix!mad.gif
post #20888 of 23178
I posted earlier that my network card stopped working after I successfully updated the firmware and added airplay on the very first day I hooked it up! Accessories4Less referred me to Denon. I called Denon, and they say they are going to send me a Fed Ex label to send it in for repair or replacement. Can anybody give me any information on how long this ordeal is going to take before I have a working 4311?

I bought a 3311 from Accessories4Less last year, and it hasn't had a single hiccup. I guess I just got a bad one this time or, rather, one about to go bad.

It sounds amazing. I need the network feature though. I'm just going to have to move the 3311 back to the living room for the time being. What a pain in the butt. I wish I had paid the extra bucks for a new one now.
post #20889 of 23178
Keep checking your email for the FedEx label, I had to call a 2nd time to finally get one. Pack and secure the AVR as best you can, a local FedEx/Kinko's store helped me with this. Took 3 1/2 weeks for my unit (4310)
and Denon paid for shipping to and from Panurgy. They replaced my network card and HD FM radio tuner (took an extra week for them to get the tuner card) unfortunately my 4310 still had same intermittent FM tuner issue upon it's return. The network card appears to be OK. So mixed results from my experience, might return AVR for round 2, but may just put up with it and give up...worried AVR could develop more problems from the wear and tear of shipping...
You SHOULD have better experience because the 4311 in general has been way more stable than the 4310 and 3310. I have a 4311 that has been rock solid, most owners report the same for the most part...good luck and hope everything works out OK.
post #20890 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redbeemer View Post

Anyone heard anything about the Pandora firmware update to fix the Internet radio GUI issue? It seems like this has been going on for quite some time without a fix!mad.gif

The latest info I have heard is that this issue is not currently being worked on by Denon. A workaround that has worked for at least one owner is to back out of Pandora and come back in to it again.
post #20891 of 23178
I also experience this issue with my 2113 and I have found that backing out and restarting Pandora and/or Internet Radio usually restores things to proper function. It's pretty annoying though and I'm surprised that Denon is "not currently" working on it frown.gif
post #20892 of 23178
NET/USB question

I currently do not have my 4311 networked to my computer, but I have been playing with the USB port on the front panel, with mixed results. I first tried an old thumb drive and kept getting a "no network connection" message after plugging it in to the front port and setting the input to NET/USB. I plan on trying a newer thumb drive, but was surprised I couldn't link up. I do have the input set to the front port, so that's not the problem.

Next I tried a Sony Walkman MP3 player and had pretty good results with music. It worked 90% of the time but sometimes it would simply lose the connection. The song would stop and I would get the same "no network connection" message. Is this a common occurrence?

I did have trouble playing pictures that were stored on the same Sony MP3 player. I had a series of movie trivia slides in .jpg format stored in a subfolder within the "picture" directory. I could bring them up on the MP3 player's screen, but when I attempted to browse to the subfolder through the 4311, it found the folder but it said it was empty. Any idea what the problem might be? I got excited when I saw that there is an option to play still pictures in a slide show format. I thought this would be an easy way to show trivia slides before a movie, but I can't seem to get it to work.

When Denon says I can hook up a "USB Memory Device" to the USB port, do they mean only thumb/flash drives and MP3 players, or would an external hard drive work as well? The manual says that the device needs to conform to MTP (Media Transfer Protocol) standards and be in either FAT16 or FAT32 format. Would an external hard drive fall into this category? I tried hooking up a WD 1TB hard drive to the USB port that had my music library and a lot more trivia slides, but I got the same "no network connection" message.
post #20893 of 23178
As noted on p. 48 in the Owner's manual what you are attempting should be possible. The .jpg pictures should display and you should be able to use an external hard drive formated in FAT32 up to 2TB.
post #20894 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I'm not sure where in the 4311 manual it states that DL3 is not supported.

Bill

My error--I misread something and thought I had seen such a statement in the 4311 manual.
post #20895 of 23178
^Understandable. The OM is long, Denonese can be quite confounding and both DenonLink and jitter reduction are rather obscure topics.
post #20896 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman View Post

NET/USB question


Next I tried a Sony Walkman MP3 player and had pretty good results with music. It worked 90% of the time but sometimes it would simply lose the connection. The song would stop and I would get the same "no network connection" message. Is this a common occurrence?

" message.

I had exactly the same problem connecting my Sony Walkman X1060. Never solved the problem...
post #20897 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

As noted on p. 48 in the Owner's manual what you are attempting should be possible. The .jpg pictures should display and you should be able to use an external hard drive formated in FAT32 up to 2TB.

I thought so too, but I can't get a connection to the hard drive and the 4311 can't identify jpg files that are on the mp3 device.

EDIT: The .jpg files not showing up from the Sony seems to be a compatibility issue. I just put the same files on my son's cheap Coby mp3 player (in a similar subfolder) and the 4311 was able to find them. Not sure why the 4311 read the subfolder as empty on the Sony.

Still haven't been able to connect to the external hard drive though.
Edited by Spaceman - 2/2/13 at 8:40am
post #20898 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by evo5 View Post

I had exactly the same problem connecting my Sony Walkman X1060. Never solved the problem...

Mine is a Sony E436F.
post #20899 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I also experience this issue with my 2113 and I have found that backing out and restarting Pandora and/or Internet Radio usually restores things to proper function. It's pretty annoying though and I'm surprised that Denon is "not currently" working on it frown.gif

What do you mean by backing out? Sign out then sign on again?
post #20900 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Understandable. The OM is long, Denonese can be quite confounding and both DenonLink and jitter reduction are rather obscure topics.

I think in retrospect that what I was looking at was the manual for a recent Denon BD player with DL4 that said DL3 was not supported. Since I have a 4310 recei9ver that doesn't support DL3, that player would lead me to listen to SACDs over HDMI (which many say has lots of jitter) or 5.1 analog (which means I lose the benefits of Audyssey). So I'm sticking with my Denon 3910 player (which does DL3) and using another player for BD's.
post #20901 of 23178
Perhaps you're thinking of the new 3313 player with the new DenonLink HD found in the AVRs4520 and 3313-that is not backwards compatible.

See p 79 of your OM. The 4310 has exactly the same DL capability as the 4311 which includes DL4 and DL3 as DL4 is designed to be backwards compatible with DL3.. I doubt there is any DL4 player that does not support DL3
post #20902 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I also experience this issue with my 2113 and I have found that backing out and restarting Pandora and/or Internet Radio usually restores things to proper function. It's pretty annoying though and I'm surprised that Denon is "not currently" working on it frown.gif

What do you mean by backing out? Sign out then sign on again?

Not sign out completely, just hit the left arrow twice to back out to the main "Network" menu screen. Then I reselect Pandora and the interface is normal again, not the Internet Radio one.

Just tried this right now. Started up Pandora and it automatically started playing the last station I had been playing before. But with the Internet Radio interface. Hit left arrow twice to back out, restarted Pandora, all is well.

Similar thing with Internet Radio, but it's a bit goofier. When I select Internet Radio it starts playing my last Pandora station again. I can then hit left once to back out to the main Internet Radio menu and select stations normally.

Each way, once I back out and redo it it works fine going forward, but it seems like getting one working screws the other one up. It's like they are having some weird back channel relationship or something tongue.gif
post #20903 of 23178
Does anyone know if there is a way for me to bypass my surround speakers in order to use my surround back speakers for listening to 5.1 audio? I have the 4311ci.
post #20904 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by shady02 View Post

Does anyone know if there is a way for me to bypass my surround speakers in order to use my surround back speakers for listening to 5.1 audio? I have the 4311ci.

Why would you want to do that? What's wrong with your surround sound speakers? The back surrounds and the immediate surrounds are not necessarily fed the same audio signal.
post #20905 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by shady02 View Post

Does anyone know if there is a way for me to bypass my surround speakers in order to use my surround back speakers for listening to 5.1 audio? I have the 4311ci.
I'm not sure if there is a setting in the receiver for this, I don't think there is. You could always try temporarily switching the physical cables around it at the back of the receiver and make sure this is something you want to do.
post #20906 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post

...The back surrounds and the immediate surrounds are not necessarily fed the same audio signal.

Correct, they are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post

...You could always try temporarily switching the physical cables around it at the back of the receiver and make sure this is something you want to do.
Then the level and Audyssey filter correction would be wrong, as it was done for the other speakers in the other location.


To shady02-fill us in on why you're thinking about this.
post #20907 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Correct, they are not.
Then the level and Audyssey filter correction would be wrong, as it was done for the other speakers in the other location.


To shady02-fill us in on why you're thinking about this.

I thought for ideal listening the location of the speakers for 5.1 for movies should be more where the surrounds are and for 5.1 audio the speakers used should be where the surround backs are. Plus my listening room is on the small side. I was hoping there was a way, other than to physically change the speaker assignments in the back of the AVR, to disable the surrounds and send the surround signals to the surround backs. In other words, have two set ups for surround sound: a 7.1 for movies and a 5.1 for audio.
post #20908 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Not sign out completely, just hit the left arrow twice to back out to the main "Network" menu screen. Then I reselect Pandora and the interface is normal again, not the Internet Radio one.

Just tried this right now. Started up Pandora and it automatically started playing the last station I had been playing before. But with the Internet Radio interface. Hit left arrow twice to back out, restarted Pandora, all is well.

Similar thing with Internet Radio, but it's a bit goofier. When I select Internet Radio it starts playing my last Pandora station again. I can then hit left once to back out to the main Internet Radio menu and select stations normally.

Each way, once I back out and redo it it works fine going forward, but it seems like getting one working screws the other one up. It's like they are having some weird back channel relationship or something tongue.gif

Thanks, ill give it a try
post #20909 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by shady02 View Post

I thought for ideal listening the location of the speakers for 5.1 for movies should be more where the surrounds are and for 5.1 audio the speakers used should be where the surround backs are. Plus my listening room is on the small side. I was hoping there was a way, other than to physically change the speaker assignments in the back of the AVR, to disable the surrounds and send the surround signals to the surround backs. In other words, have two set ups for surround sound: a 7.1 for movies and a 5.1 for audio.
Yes most film authorities recommend bi or dipoles at 90+/-10 for film 2' above seated ears. Most MC music authorities recommend monopoles at 110 +/-10 for music right about ear level and aimed at MLP.

A very few older, hi-end processors addressed this very issue by offering what is called Surr A and Surr B. It allowed you to run two different sets of surrounds switchable at the touch of a button. Each had their specific Audyssey EQ. AFAIK it was last available in the AVR 4310 and has been dropped from all more current models. They even remove that option from the AVPA1 flagship when the XT32 upgrade is done in favor of 11.2.

There is no easy solution for you. As MC music is more important to me than film, I use monopole surrounds at about 105, placed just above ear level as a compromise. It's great for music and works quite well for film, partly because I use DSX wides for film-they fill in the surround bubble nicely while expanding the front soundstage apparent depth and width. Surr backs are not practical for me as I sit so close to the back wall.

Here's a photo that gives you an idea of my setup. The Human Touch Zero Gravity black leather recliner is MLP.

Edited by SoundofMind - 2/3/13 at 2:13pm
post #20910 of 23178
Quote:
Originally Posted by shady02 View Post

I thought for ideal listening the location of the speakers for 5.1 for movies should be more where the surrounds are and for 5.1 audio the speakers used should be where the surround backs are.
Saying "ideal" in the context of 5.1 is somewhat of an oxymoron. When the ITU deliberated on defining a standard 5.1 setup, it was aimed at finding a tradeoff between getting a good sense of envelopment (side surrounds at 90-deg), and a good sense of rear effects (rear surrounds at 150 deg). The 100-120 deg range in ITU-R BS.775-2 is the compromise solution, devised back in the day before 7.1 was contemplated.

What would be idea would be to have a set of speakers for each. It took a while to get there, but 7.1 is now well entrenched. If you already have a 7.1 setup, the first choice would be to use it in 7.1 mode whenever 5.1 content is being played. Perhaps you've tried PLIIx and do not like it for some reason?
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