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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 708

post #21211 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by turrmoil View Post

What version of firmware are you running on this puppy?

the "latest" according to the receiver.
Edited by 91dx - 3/10/13 at 9:45pm
post #21212 of 23169
Hi,
I currently have a 3311 and decided to upgrade to the 4520. Went to BB yesterday to buy the 4520 and after measuring the face (7.75") I realized it would not fit in my stand. I have exactly 7.5" of height on the shelf before it hits the support brace for the shelf above it.
So, either I get a new stand; and that is more difficult than it sounds due to aesthetics and WAF, I change brands (Pioneer SC-68?) or get the 4311. The 4311 would easily be my choice except that I really wanted DTS Neo:X. I use front wides and I don't like the echo that DSX seems to add to dialog. It also seems to cut the impact from my surrounds, so mostly I use Neo 6 which I like but it doesn't use the wides.
So my question is what surround modes do you guys who are running a 9.2 or 11.2 system like? Have any of you noticed the artifacts that DSX adds or is that just me?
Thanks for any input.
Edited by DougReim - 3/11/13 at 3:44am
post #21213 of 23169
I am running an AVR-A100 (anniversary version of the 4311) in 11.2. The echo artifacts are highly program dependent. Most TV shows have it. A few blu ray concert videos have it. Many blu ray movies do not. When it is done right, it is amazing! BTW, there is a menu option to adjust how much processing is done by A-DSX.

BTW, Accessories4Less has a nice price on a factory refurb 4311:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR4311CI/DENON-AVR-4311CI-9.2-Channel-Network-Home-Theater-Receiver/1.html

They also have refurb 4520s:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR4520CI/DENON-AVR-4520CI-Denon-s-Flagship-Home-Theater-Receiver-150wpc/1.html

I bought a refurb 3312 from them last summer and it was in perfect condition.
post #21214 of 23169
I've noticed that some sources seem to have more of the echo than others also but I was told by other members that Neo:X eliminates that. from your answer it seems that you've noticed the echo too and it's a concern?

Quote:
BTW, there is a menu option to adjust how much processing is done by A-DSX.


Can you elaborate? Can you edit the echo out and if so, do you still get the full effect when using wides?
post #21215 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by 91dx View Post

the "latest" according to the receiver.
My advice for a unit that becomes wonky is to
1. First do a Network Save, if you have not yet done so and be sure the file on your HD is not all zeros
2. Then try just unplugging the power cord for a few minutes.
3. If that doesn't work do a "reset the microprocessor" (making sure the FPD flashes). Then use Network Load to get all your settings and the calibration back. Repeat 3. twice if needed.
post #21216 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

Hi,
I currently have a 3311 and decided to upgrade to the 4520. Went to BB yesterday to buy the 4520 and after measuring the face (7.75") I realized it would not fit in my stand. I have exactly 7.5" of height on the shelf before it hits the support brace for the shelf above it.
So, either I get a new stand; and that is more difficult than it sounds due to aesthetics and WAF, I change brands (Pioneer SC-68?) or get the 4311. The 4311 would easily be my choice except that I really wanted DTS Neo:X. I use front wides and I don't like the echo that DSX seems to add to dialog. It also seems to cut the impact from my surrounds, so mostly I use Neo 6 which I like but it doesn't use the wides.
So my question is what surround modes do you guys who are running a 9.2 or 11.2 system like? Have any of you noticed the artifacts that DSX adds or is that just me?
Thanks for any input.
Hi. I looked at your HT pics and I have some questions. What is your speaker configuration and placement? I don't see the front wides. I also don't see surrounds-are those surr rears on the rear wall? The CC should not be pushed back into a shelf-that can greatly affect dialog. Minimally, it should be slid out till the front edge of the speaker sticks out a bit from the cab and it should be aimed at your ear level. So I wonder if you may be trying to solve speaker placement problems with an AVR change.

I have 7.2 DSX wides with my A100, but use wides almost exclusively for film. For film I also use DEQ with RLO=0, it boosts the surrounds and does a great job pulling the surround field together and dialog is unaffected, remaining very good.

Indeed the amount of DSX effect is indeed easily adjustable to preference, and varying this per content may help. I rarely use wides for music. I prefer to listen to music in native format most of the time. I may use Neo:6 or Dolby PLII occasionally when expanding stereo, depending on the mix. content andBut I have carefully placed speakers so stereo and 5.1 both sound very good. I don't watch much regular TV but though the HDTV SQ is good, the mixes vary a lot. I usually use DEQ with RLO=10 and DVol=eve, no wides and dialog is very good.


post #21217 of 23169
Hi SoundofMind,
Thanks for replying.
The pics in my signature are old.I have 9.2 speakers in place and they are positioned exactly like your diagram. It's hard to tell in the pics but my CC speaker is on the top shelf of the stand pushed completely to the front. It's probably about 1' below ear level but that's the best I can do.
Like you I listen to music in 2 channel stereo, the additional speakers are only for film and I like the Neo 6 over DSX. I don't know what this "For film I also use DEQ with RLO=0" is?
Maybe I'm missing a setting?
post #21218 of 23169
In a rush, gotta go to work but..
So you have VG speaker placement-great. And rightfully should expect exc SQ results.
DEQ-Dynamic Equalization, and that is adjusted when needed by using the RLO=reference level offset. DVol=Dynamic Volume, adjused using day-eve-midnight intensity settings

I believe your AVR has MultEQXT, so with XT32 expect a nice bump in SQ and clearer dialog.
post #21219 of 23169
Thanks...I do have DEQ (the initials just didn't register with me........another brain fart on my part). I guess I just don't like the way DSX processes the material.
post #21220 of 23169
Doug,

Are you getting the echo effect with DSX on all sources?

I'm currently running 9.1 with heights (wide’s would be a bit of a challenge in my room) and most of the time up-mixing the broadcast 2.1 and 5.1 signals to 9.1 DSX works very well. There are a few times when it doesn't quite sound natural, and I have experienced a slight echo effect from time to time, but it's not the norm.
I do however have a consistent issue with my local PBS channel broadcast through DirecTV as 5.1. It echoes very badly and I can't get it to sound natural in any mode other than 2.1 Stereo but that channel is the exception though.
I have never experienced an issue when watching a Blu-ray or DVD and I have to agree with SoundofMind’s comments, in that I prefer music in its native format.
I run DEQ with RLO=0, DynVol=OFF.
post #21221 of 23169
Not positive that I get it with all sources.
It's very noticeable on most signals from the cable box and I notice it with some movies but not all. I listen to music in stereo so it's not an issue with music. I'm not sure about the DVD/BluRay difference, I'll pay more attention to that and post up.
Thanks.............
post #21222 of 23169
Can I assume the instructions for these things are found in the owners manual? Which isn't written very well IMO
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

My advice for a unit that becomes wonky is to
1. First do a Network Save, if you have not yet done so and be sure the file on your HD is not all zeros
2. Then try just unplugging the power cord for a few minutes.
3. If that doesn't work do a "reset the microprocessor" (making sure the FPD flashes). Then use Network Load to get all your settings and the calibration back. Repeat 3. twice if needed.
post #21223 of 23169
Ive read a good portion of the Audyssey setup guide and FAQ. Im curious about a few things though. How do interpret the graphs Audyssey creates for each speaker? Secondly, I notice that the AVR has the Audyssey referance and flat settings, or Movie/music for some folks. Can i set my sources to automatically swith to the preferred setting if I want to?
post #21224 of 23169
1. The graphs in the receiver display the rough CORRECTION applied to each speaker channel.

2. On Denons, all Audyssey settings (EQ, Dyn EQ, Ref Offset, Dyn Volume, DSX) are memorized by SOURCE. So, yes, you can have different settings for different inputs.
post #21225 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by 91dx View Post

Can I assume the instructions for these things are found in the owners manual? Which isn't written very well IMO
The OM is preety dicey on this, so see this go-to post on Network Save by AustinJerry:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430049/the-official-denon-avr-4520ci-thread/330#post_22487485

mp reset is uncharacteristically clearly described in the OM p138
post #21226 of 23169
Quote:
1. The graphs in the receiver display the rough CORRECTION applied to each speaker channel.
So in a perfectly acoustical room, ot one that is made for hi-fi listening, the graph might be much smaller, or less corrections? And a big irregular shaped room with granite floors and vaulted ceilings might have a huge graph showing huge corrections?

Other than eye candy, is there something practical I can use the graphs for?

I believe it was you, I cant recall, that told me to turn off dynamic volume after running Audyssey. Im assuming thats why my HT is extremely loud now and the dialogue is harder to hear. Does it matter if I turn it back on?
post #21227 of 23169
Yeah, I would assume that the better the room acoustics, the less correction would be required. That said, I honestly don't think the graphs have that much practical function, they are relatively crude representations. If you really want to investigate room acoustics you should invest in some real external measurement hardware ($100 for a USB mic + a steep learning curve with REW, or $300 for a plug-and-play Omnimic kit).

I doubt it was me, although I may have made that suggestion in context of a specific question. Not sure what you mean by "does it matter" if you turn it on? You turn it on if you need it, you leave it off if you don't. Does that qualify as "mattering"? tongue.gif
post #21228 of 23169
Quote:
I doubt it was me, although I may have made that suggestion in context of a specific question. Not sure what you mean by "does it matter" if you turn it on? You turn it on if you need it, you leave it off if you don't. Does that qualify as "mattering"?

The reason I ask is now when trying to listen at anything nearing referance levels, I am blown out of the room during action scenes while just being able to hear the dialogue. I guess Ill turn it back on and try the different settings to see which I like best. How about you? Off or on?
post #21229 of 23169
Yes, that a result of the wide dynamic range in modern film soundtracks. Dynamic Volume specifically controls this.

What I would do is find a good "reference scene" that you have trouble with, something where there is some dialogue at "normal" levels and then some heavy action starts that blows you out of the room. This way you can repeat the scene easily trying different settings. First try day, then evening, etc. After you engage the setting, make sure to readjust dialogue to the comfortable level, and then see how the action sounds.

The goal is to be able to watch the entire movie without having to adjust the volume, while still getting the dynamics you desire. That is the "correct" setting for YOU.

For ME, I use Dyn Vol all the time because I live in a smaller townhouse with shared walls so I can't unleash the full dynamic range of soundtracks. I tend to use "Evening" most of the time, although I use "Midnight" for late night viewing when the wife/baby are asleep. If nobody was home I would probably go with "Day".
post #21230 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffypuck View Post

The reason I ask is now when trying to listen at anything nearing referance levels, I am blown out of the room during action scenes while just being able to hear the dialogue. I guess Ill turn it back on and try the different settings to see which I like best. How about you? Off or on?

+1 to Batpig's input above. FWIW, I am one of a relative legion of AVSers who listen well below reference level pretty much all the time. I'd peg my typical movie listening at -15 to -20 dB from reference, without DynVol when it's just me, typically with DunVOl on Day with my SO in the room. As PB says, you'll find what works for you.
post #21231 of 23169
I know that the Denon 4311 has an AKM Semiconductor 24-bit/192-kHz x 2 per channel differential DAC inside it. But would an external DAC do anything to improve the sound further. Something like a Musical Fidelity V Dac or a Cambridge Audio DacMagic?
post #21232 of 23169
DAC's are SOOOOO overrated. The DAC's in the 4311 are already excellent and nearly all modern DAC's are essentially transparent to the source, the only major difference is the S/N spec.. You might find an external DAC that you think sounds "better" to you but it's probably just coloring the sound, so at that point you are in preference land....
post #21233 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

Hi,
Have any of you noticed the artifacts that DSX adds or is that just me?
Thanks for any input.

I'm almost strictly BluRay movies. With regards to dialog the answer is no. With DSX any center channel dialog should stay with the center speaker. Nothing is sent to the wides or hights. It's been my experience that televison audio can be another matter however, but this has more to do with the source than any processing that the receiver does.
post #21234 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

DAC's are SOOOOO overrated. The DAC's in the 4311 are already excellent and nearly all modern DAC's are essentially transparent to the source, the only major difference is the S/N spec.. You might find an external DAC that you think sounds "better" to you but it's probably just coloring the sound, so at that point you are in preference land....
So if we rule out Dacs, amps, cables what else can bettered in a setup to see an improvement in sound?
Things that are most suggested are acoustic room treatment, Audyssey like room correction systems and subwoofer.
Other than these, what else would improve the sound? (Without changing the speakers and the source of course smile.gif)
post #21235 of 23169
1) Speakers
2) Room acoustics (including optimization of speaker / sub location)
[big gap]
3) Electronic room correction
[huge gap]
4) Everything else
post #21236 of 23169
Wow, I used to watch movies right around -9.0 to -4.0db. Now with DYNVOL off,. at -14db on the volume knob Im getting about 68-71db with dialogue and 89-93db with action which blows out the room and my ears. Is there any way to bridge the amps on a 4311??
post #21237 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

1) Speakers
2) Room acoustics (including optimization of speaker / sub location)
[big gap]
3) Electronic room correction
[huge gap]
4) Everything else
+1

As to DACs, I did some A/B testing of the vaunted dedicated stereo DACs in the Oppo DBP83SE against the DACs in the Denon AVR 4310 and A100/4311. I also tested some dedicated analog HT bypass preamps to achieve a high-end analog path completely bypassing the AVR DAC and preamp stage as reported in this post and the post just after it.

Good speakers are always a good investment.
The room rules. Therefore DSP RC (and/or acoustic treatments) rules.
After that, get ready to spend really bigger and bigger bucks on smaller and smaller SQ improvements.
post #21238 of 23169
How good is the phone stage supposed to be on the 4311?

I bought a new Rega turntable RP1 a few weeks ago, and am getting a hissing noise when listening at a louder volume. Actually barely audible at normal listening volumes, but when I crank it up a bit it's definitely louder. Of course you can't hear it through the music but during silent parts or track changes.
Perhaps a grounding issue? No other device does this in my setup.
The Rega has a simple audio out cable and a power cord, whereas my old turntable also had a grounding wire, any correlation?
post #21239 of 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffypuck View Post

Wow, I used to watch movies right around -9.0 to -4.0db. Now with DYNVOL off,. at -14db on the volume knob Im getting about 68-71db with dialogue and 89-93db with action which blows out the room and my ears.

Isn't that exactly what you'd expect? Reference level is around 80-85dB for average levels (e.g. dialogue) and up to 105dB for peaks (20dB louder). You are at -14... so if you add 14dB to your figures, you get 82-85dB for dialogue and 103-107dB for "action" which means things are operating normally.

The issue for you is that you find this full level of dynamic range to be excessive. That's what Dynamic Volume controls. So, for example, at the "Evening" setting you might set the volume such that dialogue is at the same level (~70dB) that you prefer, but now the peaks will only 10dB louder instead of 20dB louder.

The flip side is that some softer sounds will be more audible too. For example, with Dyn Vol off, there might be a soft passage (whispers, background ambiance) that is 15dB lower than the dialogue... at your volume level of -14, these would be around 55dB, which is getting close enough to the noise floor that they may be difficult to hear. With Dyn Vol on, they might only drop to 60-65dB, making the soft stuff more audible in addition to making the loud stuff not so loud.

Quote:
Is there any way to bridge the amps on a 4311??

Huh? What does this have to do with the topic? The answer is no, but this seemed to be a pretty confusing non sequitur.
post #21240 of 23169
LOL! My mind is going a million miles a second sometimes. I guess I was wondering since I have an external amp, could I use it to bridge the center channel? It just seems with DV off, that the center channel is really lacking. To be honest, I like the higher level, but the dialogue was difficult to understand at times. Ive pretty much got all the knowledge I need from you guys here. I appreciate it a lot. I mess around tweaking different stuff while I shop for new speakers. The ones I have will suffice for now until then.
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