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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 736

post #22051 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmichaelh View Post


My question is, would passive bi-amping a moderately powered amp with the AVR's amps provide any benefit?
 

 

No. It's a waste of wire, amps and your time. Biamping requires an electronic (active) crossover between the preamp and power amp. This means you would have to disable the passive crossover in your speaker for it to provide any benefit. I assume you don't want to modify your speakers as you didn’t mention it?

 

Have a read of this:

 

Passive Biamping - AKA 'Fool's Biamping'

post #22052 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmichaelh View Post

I have tried the external amp on the FR/FL before and it does seem effective at giving other channels more headroom.

Unfortunately, even though powering the FR and FL channels externally frees up 2 int amps, there is no way to configure the 4311/ AVR-A100 to run A-DSX Wide + Height AND Zone2 all from internal amps. If someone could prove me wrong I would love it smile.gif

I wonder if that is truely a hardware limitation, or if a firmware change could patch it.

I guess I should add, that it is possible to configure the amp assign for height and wides, but then when you cycle through the A-DSX modes, H+W is not available, and when you change from H to W or vice versa you can hear the relay toggling the amp output to corresponding speaker terminals.
Oh I got a bit confused as you referred to your setup as 7.1 so I missed your wanting H+W =9.1, plus Z2. Now I see the dilemma, as this model incorporates surr back speakers with all DSX options.

Perhaps batpig or jdsmoothie can help with the dizzying amp config options but it seems to me that there is no Z2 + FH+FW setting in the 4311. You'll need to use NL or 11Ch amp assign mode. Either allows you the option to to use ext power for FR/L and CC to increase headroom, but you must use the Z2 preouts. The latter can be run to an inexpensive compact 2 ch amp that need not be in your rack to power Z2 patio.

edit: I agree with Keith's post above.

edit: I wouldn't expect any "FW fix" to the amp assign config "limitation". Though this AVR was remarkable for its features, reliability and remains an exc value, it is what it is.
Edited by SoundofMind - 6/19/13 at 5:37am
post #22053 of 23177
jasonmichaelh,

I also agree with all those above. I'm using mine in an 11.2 config, so am using a 'cheap' amp for outside speakers. I found the Audiosource AMP100, or AMP102 to work very well (and they don't take up that much space).
post #22054 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregavi View Post

I tried another setup and it works. Here it is:

DVR >4311>Splitter>TV-A & TV-B & TV-C (I have 3 TVs I'm feeding)
All 3 TVs get audio and HiDef Video. Audio only when I switch 4311 to HDMI Out "TV" instead of Amp. That makes sense.

What I had and did not work was:

DVR>Splitter>4311 & TV-A & TV-B & TV-C.
This way sent Hi-Def Video but not DD 5.1 (only 2 Channel) audio through. Doesn't that mean the "Splitter" is not sending the DD 5.1 through. The TV is at the end of the chain in both cases, so I don't see the TV as having anything to do with it.

Note: This is not a reply to gsr in particular, just what was stated in general about this topic. I still don't fully understand how this HDMI/splitter works.
The splitter is NOT neglecting to pass DD 5.1 through. The EDID handshake process is telling your source device (DVR) that 2 channel is the best option that all connected end points support. The splitter just passes through what the source device sends. To prove the point, insert your splitter between the DVR and the 4311 and disconnect the other HDMI cables that go to the TV's and I bet you'll see DD 5.1 going to the 4311. I don't mean to be sarcastic, but do you understand the math concepts of lowest common denominator and highest common denominator? It's basically the same concept and let's look at the supported audio formats (I'm going to fake the options a bit to keep things brief and to hopefully make a point):

DVR supported audio output formats: mono LPCM, 2 channel LPCM, 5.1 Dolby Digital
4311 supported audio input formats: mono LPCM, 2 channel LPCM, 5.1 Dolby Digital, up to 7.1 Dolby True HD, up to 7.1 DTS HD Master Audio, etc.
TV A supported audio input formats: mono LPCM, 2 channel LPCM
TV B supported audio input formats: mono LPCM, 2 channel LPCM
TV C supported audio input formats: mono LPCM, 2 channel LPCM

When you hook these all up to the splitter, the HDMI/EDID handshake process tells the DVR the best format supported by all the sink devices (4311 and the 3 TV's). The only audio formats that are common to the DVR, 4311, and all 3 TV's are mono LPCM and 2 channel LPCM. The lowest common denominator here would be mono LPCM, and the highest common denominator would be 2 channel LPCM. So the DVR decides on 2 channel LPCM. The splitter really doesn't enter into the process that decides what format the DVR should go with.

If you disconnect the TV's from the splitter, then the best audio format common to everything that's hooked up changes to 5.1 Dolby Digital so the DVR would send 5.1 Dolby Digital to the 4311.

And note that mono LPCM probably isn't an audio format that's actually supported by all the devices - I was just throwing it in to help make the point.

Regarding the DirecTV mini clients for your other TV's, the obvious huge advantage is that different shows could be watched on each TV while right now you have to watch the same thing on the TV's that are connected to the HDMI splitter.
post #22055 of 23177
To put it another way

The splitter does not decide what kind of signal to send.

The source device (like a bluray player) can only send one kind of signal at a time.

with an HDMI connection, the connected equipment "talks" to each other to establish what to send. So if the blu ray player is connected to just the receiver, the receiver tells the BDP it can handle anything the player can put out. The player will choose to bitstream high def multichannel, or to send multichannel LPCM (often controlled by a setting on the player itself)

But if the player is connected to a TV, the TV "tells" the player it's a stereo device. Sending multichannel DTSHDMA to most TVs will result in silence because the TV cannot "read" any DTS format. Sending multichannel low bitrate DD to the TV will either result in silence or be entirely missing the center channel (so people's mouths wil move but no sound of voices will come out of the TV because that sound is in the center channel that the TV cannot play). Knowing this from the handshake, the player will send a stereo signal for the TV.

When multiple devices are connected, unless the user wants silence or no center channel on a stereo device, the choice of stereo from the player makes perfect sense. Only one soundtrack can be sent, and if it's a track the TV can't use, you're SOL when you try to listen through the TV
.
The typical splitter just takes what it's fed and sends the same thing to multiple devices. It only receives one "kind" of soundtrack because the player can only send one "kind" of soundtrack at a time.

My only semiancient Denon has a setting to let me tell the handshake for audio to "see" the receiver as the relevant device OR to see the TV as the relevant device. I set to receiver (actually "AMP," IIRC) so I get lossless multichannel whenever it's available.
post #22056 of 23177
Right, and to add one more piece, the reason this setup works:
Quote:
DVR >4311>Splitter>TV-A & TV-B & TV-C (I have 3 TVs I'm feeding)
All 3 TVs get audio and HiDef Video. Audio only when I switch 4311 to HDMI Out "TV" instead of Amp. That makes sense.

... is because the source is only seeing three TV's connected which all (presumably) have the same audio capabilities (stereo). When the 4311 is set to "TV" for HDMI Audio Out then it doesn't go into the chain as an audio sink, it's simply passing the signal through, so the splitter is just seeing the three TV's. It would effectively be the same as if the 4311 wasn't in the loop, and you simply split the DVR signal to three different TV's directly.

The issue comes when BOTH the 4311 and one of the TV's are detected as active HDMI sinks. Then the TV's are the limiting factor and the source refuses to send multichannel, and you see only stereo input on the 4311.
post #22057 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

The splitter is NOT neglecting to pass DD 5.1 through. The EDID handshake process is telling your source device (DVR) that 2 channel is the best option that all connected end points support. The splitter just passes through what the source device sends. To prove the point, insert your splitter between the DVR and the 4311 and disconnect the other HDMI cables that go to the TV's and I bet you'll see DD 5.1 going to the 4311.

I thought of that, tried it and there is no difference when I disconnect all TVs. I actually disconnected all the HDMI cables from the splitter except the one going in from the DVR and the one going out to the 4311. In all of my experiments, moving the splitter within the chain determines whether or not I get DD 5.1 or 2 channel. TV connected or not, does nothing. Your common denominator theory is going the way of Einstein’s Static Universe theory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Regarding the DirecTV mini clients for your other TV's, the obvious huge advantage is that different shows could be watched on each TV while right now you have to watch the same thing on the TV's that are connected to the HDMI splitter.

I never have a situation where I would want these particular TVs with different programming. These TVs are for watching, mostly sporting events(We watch almost everything delayed to avoid commercials), where I have friends over and some of them smoke and drink right outside my HT and watch the game on TV #2 while others are inside watching Front Projector. The problem with the client is, you cannot sync the client with the main DVR. I tried that during my last Superbowl party, when I wanted to sync the client with the DVR because I wanted the Living room TV to be synced to the DVR along with the other TVs in the HT. Not possible. Instead, I used a HDMI over CAT5 device from my splitter out to the Living Room TV. Worked great. All the TVs were synced with delayed DVR content.
Edited by gregavi - 6/19/13 at 9:41am
post #22058 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Oh I got a bit confused as you referred to your setup as 7.1 so I missed your wanting H+W =9.1, plus Z2. Now I see the dilemma, as this model incorporates surr back speakers with all DSX options.

OK, let's clear some stuff up smile.gif

First off, like SoM, I was confused by your post because you indicated a 7.2 setup. H+W (added on top of the 5 main channels) equals a NINE channel setup. The receiver only has 9 amps, so if you assign two of those to Zone 2, then only 7 are left and it makes sense that it forces you to max out at 7 channels (choosing between heights OR wides when you press the DSX button).

As a quick aside, I'm not sure what SoM is saying by "this model incorporates surr back speakers with all DSX options". You can definitely run a 9ch setup with heights+wides and NO surr backs. I know for a fact because I've set one up this way for a friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmichaelh View Post

I have tried the external amp on the FR/FL before and it does seem effective at giving other channels more headroom.

Unfortunately, even though powering the FR and FL channels externally frees up 2 int amps, there is no way to configure the 4311/ AVR-A100 to run A-DSX Wide + Height AND Zone2 all from internal amps. If someone could prove me wrong I would love it smile.gif

With the 4311, there is no way to do FW+FH+Z2 using ONLY internal amps. That's 6 extra amp channels beyond the main 5, so 11 total, and the receiver only has 9 amps.

The issue is that there are only 4 assignable amps, the core 5 are "locked in", so even using an external amp for the FR/FL mains doesn't "free up" two channels. When you set Amp Assign to "ZONE2" and then use the "Assign Sp." menu to choose where the Zone 2 speakers are connected, then two of the amps are dedicated to Zone 2. If you try to press the A-DSX button, it will toggle between DSX+H and DSX+W but won't allow both because a single pair of amp channels will be toggling between the two.

Quote:
I guess I should add, that it is possible to configure the amp assign for height and wides, but then when you cycle through the A-DSX modes, H+W is not available, and when you change from H to W or vice versa you can hear the relay toggling the amp output to corresponding speaker terminals

Something is fishy here -- if you configure the amp for height AND wides (Amp Assign = NORMAL) then you should absolutely be able to run heights + wides at the same time.

Anyway, wrapping it all up, the solution here is obvious and costs less than 100 bucks: http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-25-Watt-Stereo-Black/dp/B004U29IGG

If you need a bit more power reach into the change jar for an extra 22 bucks and get this: http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-100-Stereo-Power-Amplifier/dp/B00026BQJ6

Use that for Zone 2 and you are all good to go, problem solved.
post #22059 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregavi View Post

I thought of that, tried it and there is no difference when I disconnect all TVs. I actually disconnected all the HDMI cables from the splitter except the one going in from the DVR and the one going out to the 4311. In all of my experiments, moving the splitter within the chain determines whether or not I get DD 5.1 or 2 channel. TV connected or not, does nothing. Your common denominator theory is going the way of Einstein’s Static Universe theory.
Did you power everything off while making these changes and then back on when done? If not, it's possible another EDID handshake didn't happen and the DVR stuck with stereo audio output. When it happens, the EDID handshake will result in the best common audio format (unless errors occur), but the handshake has to take place for that to happen.

The common denominator thing isn't a theory - it's how this process works (but yes, it also sometimes fails to get things right).

Some HDMI matrix switchers (usually the more expensive ones) can play games with the EDID info to manipulate the result to allow you to force better audio through even when some of the sinks don't support it. That's potentially useful when you don't actually need audio at all of the sinks and it can also speed up the handshakes. Some splitters probably manipulate the EDID info too - I'm not absolutely positive that yours doesn't. The discussion has been assuming that your HDMI splitter is just a passive splitter with no manipulation going on.
post #22060 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

...
As a quick aside, I'm not sure what SoM is saying by "this model incorporates surr back speakers with all DSX options". You can definitely run a 9ch setup with heights+wides and NO surr backs. I know for a fact because I've set one up this way for a friend...

I'm not sure what I meant either. biggrin.gif
I knew that one need not run surr backs to have DSX H+W but was trying to find an easier way for him to power Z2...but I easily get confused reading the illustration in the OM p94. 9 amps is 9 amps. Thanks for the help, bp.
post #22061 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

I'm not sure what I meant either. biggrin.gif
I knew that one need not run surr backs to have DSX H+W but was trying to find an easier way for him to power Z2...but I easily get confused reading the illustration in the OM p94. 9 amps is 9 amps. Thanks for the help, bp.

Oops, I must have been on cruise control when i typed 7.2 instead of 9.2 (you know, like when you take the freeway exit for home when your supposed to keep driving?). Just to clarify, I am running FL, C, FR, FHL, FHR, FWL, FWR, SR, SL, sub1, and sub2 in the MAIN zone.
post #22062 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

OK, let's clear some stuff up smile.gif

First off, like SoM, I was confused by your post because you indicated a 7.2 setup. H+W (added on top of the 5 main channels) equals a NINE channel setup. The receiver only has 9 amps, so if you assign two of those to Zone 2, then only 7 are left and it makes sense that it forces you to max out at 7 channels (choosing between heights OR wides when you press the DSX button).

As a quick aside, I'm not sure what SoM is saying by "this model incorporates surr back speakers with all DSX options". You can definitely run a 9ch setup with heights+wides and NO surr backs. I know for a fact because I've set one up this way for a friend.
With the 4311, there is no way to do FW+FH+Z2 using ONLY internal amps. That's 6 extra amp channels beyond the main 5, so 11 total, and the receiver only has 9 amps.

The issue is that there are only 4 assignable amps, the core 5 are "locked in", so even using an external amp for the FR/FL mains doesn't "free up" two channels. When you set Amp Assign to "ZONE2" and then use the "Assign Sp." menu to choose where the Zone 2 speakers are connected, then two of the amps are dedicated to Zone 2. If you try to press the A-DSX button, it will toggle between DSX+H and DSX+W but won't allow both because a single pair of amp channels will be toggling between the two.
Something is fishy here -- if you configure the amp for height AND wides (Amp Assign = NORMAL) then you should absolutely be able to run heights + wides at the same time.

Anyway, wrapping it all up, the solution here is obvious and costs less than 100 bucks: http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-25-Watt-Stereo-Black/dp/B004U29IGG

If you need a bit more power reach into the change jar for an extra 22 bucks and get this: http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-100-Stereo-Power-Amplifier/dp/B00026BQJ6

Use that for Zone 2 and you are all good to go, problem solved.

Thanks for the explanation of the core 5 channels being locked to an amp. Obvioiusly Denon saw this as a limitiation and fixed it with the 4520. I still wonder if Denon can provide a FW fix on the AVR-A100, or if it is HW limitiation.

Nothing fishy going on. When amp assign is NORMAL (or 11 CHANNEL), I have full A-DSX. It's when amp assign ZONE2 is selected, that the A-DSX button switches between the DSX=H and DSX+W (as expected when you read through the Denonese).

Thanks for the suggestion on the amps, but I really prefer one chassis to power ZONE2 and additional amplication for the MAIN ZONE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Oh I got a bit confused as you referred to your setup as 7.1 so I missed your wanting H+W =9.1, plus Z2. Now I see the dilemma, as this model incorporates surr back speakers with all DSX options.

Perhaps batpig or jdsmoothie can help with the dizzying amp config options but it seems to me that there is no Z2 + FH+FW setting in the 4311. You'll need to use NL or 11Ch amp assign mode. Either allows you the option to to use ext power for FR/L and CC to increase headroom, but you must use the Z2 preouts. The latter can be run to an inexpensive compact 2 ch amp that need not be in your rack to power Z2 patio.

edit: I agree with Keith's post above.

edit: I wouldn't expect any "FW fix" to the amp assign config "limitation". Though this AVR was remarkable for its features, reliability and remains an exc value, it is what it is.

I'm not holding my breath for a FW fix, but maybe I'll at least ask Denon about it.

Unfortunately the compact amp solution wouldn't be as elegant as a single chassis. The speaker wire posts for ZONE2 (and all non LCR channels of MAIN zone) are on the wall directly behind my console...I'm really thinking I should have routed everything to a closet at this point :
post #22063 of 23177
The FW "fix" isn't going to happen, because nothing is broken that needs to be fixed. The receiver works as designed.

Dude, just sack up and pop 100 bucks on the amp, problem solved.
post #22064 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

No. It's a waste of wire, amps and your time. Biamping requires an electronic (active) crossover between the preamp and power amp. This means you would have to disable the passive crossover in your speaker for it to provide any benefit. I assume you don't want to modify your speakers as you didn’t mention it?

Have a read of this:

Passive Biamping - AKA 'Fool's Biamping'

Hi Keith?

I guess you didn't catch my full post.

Who's the guy that you linked to, Chuck? One of the points he indicates against passive bi-amping actually could actually be in favor of passively bi-amping with the internal amps of the AVR and a moderately powered external amp.

"Chuck" claims that it is cheaper to buy one 200W amp than it is to buy two 100W amps. That is not always true, but probably is more often than not. Regardless, if I were buying amplification for a new passive system, I would probably still go with one 200 or 250W amp.

BUT, in my current situation, there are already 140 clean watts there for the bass level, and it seems feasible to add a modest 80-125w external amp for the mid/treb. Are you saying that wouldn't provide additional power/headroom over and above the AVR by itself, and be cheaper than buying a 200 or 250W amp?

My only concern with passive bi-amping like that would be that the load seen by the AVR and external amp would go down, increasing the current demand. The amp or AVR might not be stable at the reduced load.

The other concern is gain matching and whether Audyssey can compensate for what the amp controls can't. I guess I could try it out with my parasound 2250 driving the bass, and the AVR the mid/treb, but I'm already worn out for the day...smile.gif

If you have anything else to add I would be glad to hear it, but I guess this is slightly off topic for this thread.

BTW - I would eventually like to try active bi-amping when I get into audio component DIY mode, but for now I'm working with the unmodified manufactured components of this system.
post #22065 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The FW "fix" isn't going to happen, because nothing is broken that needs to be fixed. The receiver works as designed.

Dude, just sack up and pop 100 bucks on the amp, problem solved.

IMO, it does need to be fixed. But you and Denon can call it an upgrade if that makes you feel better tongue.gif

The 5805 and AVP-A1 didn't have 3D and XT32, but Denon upgraded those (albeit with +HW and a surcharge).
post #22066 of 23177

The 4311 is end-of-life, so unless something breaks, we are not likely to see FW updates to this unit.

 

There have been countless discussions on passive bi-amping, and the overwhelming opinion is that this is a waste of time.  Rather than re-hashing old stuff, do a search in this thread, or any of the other AVR threads, and you will see that it has been discussed in detail.

post #22067 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmichaelh View Post


IMO, it does need to be fixed. But you and Denon can call it an upgrade if that makes you feel better tongue.gif

No, it's a specific design. You might not be aware of the history but the 4810 already had this feature. The 43xx lacked this as an intentional choice differentiating them from the the higher level models

The 4520 is sort of a "hybrid" replacement of the 4311 and 4810 (thus the intermediate level number of 45), it had the larger chassis and fancier binding posts of the 4520, and it brought back the free assign feature.

So it will never be "fixed" on the 4311 because it's precisely as designed. It sucks for your specific application but it is what it is, I guarantee you no FW upgrade is coming for this.
post #22068 of 23177
I didn't find anything specific about internal avr amp combined with external amp for bi-amping. If someone can point me to a post specific to that topic i would appreciate it.
post #22069 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmichaelh View Post

I didn't find anything specific about internal avr amp combined with external amp for bi-amping. If someone can point me to a post specific to that topic i would appreciate it.

Whether you use internal amps, external amps, or a combination of both, it's all passive bi-amping, and the consensus is that it adds no value.
post #22070 of 23177
Jason - since size seems to be a factor in your resistance to adding an amp for zone 2, have you considered a tiny little digital T amp like this? http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-380

You noted I think the zone 2 is used infrequently and if its motly just background music (eg patio speakers) then 15-25 watts per channel may be plenty.
post #22071 of 23177
Not hanging from my 4311 but rather a 2313CI is a Crown XLS1500 Drivecore amp. Clean, cheap power in a lightweight Class D amp. Just another consideration.

Not as small as the toy Dayton linked above though smile.gif
post #22072 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Whether you use internal amps, external amps, or a combination of both, it's all passive bi-amping, and the consensus is that it adds no value.
No, bi-amping is a mixed bag of results...what adds no value is bi-wiring. wink.gif
post #22073 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Whether you use internal amps, external amps, or a combination of both, it's all passive bi-amping, and the consensus is that it adds no value.
No, bi-amping is a mixed bag of results...what adds no value is bi-wiring. wink.gif

 

Passive biamping is a waste of time and wire. To biamp requires an electronic (active) crossover between the preamp and power amp and the passive crossovers in the speakers have to be removed or disabled. If these conditions are not met, the so-called biamping is a pointless. Proper biamping, of course, as found in active loudspeakers is definitely worthwhile.

 

More info:

 

post #22074 of 23177
External amplification. Well, it's been a long, long time since I've posted anything here. Mainly because the 4311 simply works and works well. At some point I may jump to the Marantz Pre but for now, busy tinkering elsewhere.

I have used in the past, three Emotiva XPA-1s for the fronts and 2 XPA-5s for everything else for all 11 channels of external amplification (yes, I can count - two extra channnels existed with this set up).I have enjoyed the external amps and truly effortless ability the Emo's have at powering my B&W 800 series speakers. However, as I am constantly tinkering with the rack, I just plain got sick of the heft of all these Amps. So, recently I switched out the XPA-1s and reverted back to the 5s and added a smaller, lighter XPA-100 for the all important center. I find the difference/ downgrade acceptable. I may believe I can hear a difference but probably just placebo. My system still plays much better at moderate to loud levels with the external amps than the internal 4311s amplification and besides, you need an external to run 11.whatever anyway.

If anyone is looking to go with external amplification, for whatever reason, I can easily recommend the XPA-5s and the newer XPA-100. Now I have one last XPA-1 to sell. My back will be happy.
post #22075 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

jasonmichaelh,

I also agree with all those above. I'm using mine in an 11.2 config, so am using a 'cheap' amp for outside speakers. I found the Audiosource AMP100, or AMP102 to work very well (and they don't take up that much space).
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Jason - since size seems to be a factor in your resistance to adding an amp for zone 2, have you considered a tiny little digital T amp like this? http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-380

You noted I think the zone 2 is used infrequently and if its motly just background music (eg patio speakers) then 15-25 watts per channel may be plenty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Not hanging from my 4311 but rather a 2313CI is a Crown XLS1500 Drivecore amp. Clean, cheap power in a lightweight Class D amp. Just another consideration.

Not as small as the toy Dayton linked above though smile.gif

Thank you all for the suggestions. There is a space behind my center channel a miniature amp would fit in, so I may go that route for now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

No, it's a specific design. You might not be aware of the history but the 4810 already had this feature. The 43xx lacked this as an intentional choice differentiating them from the the higher level models

The 4520 is sort of a "hybrid" replacement of the 4311 and 4810 (thus the intermediate level number of 45), it had the larger chassis and fancier binding posts of the 4520, and it brought back the free assign feature.

So it will never be "fixed" on the 4311 because it's precisely as designed. It sucks for your specific application but it is what it is, I guarantee you no FW upgrade is coming for this.

Ah I see. But not even for the AVR-A100? Something to really differentiate the unit other than glitter, iron, and an extended warranty? smile.gif (rhetorical question)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Passive biamping is a waste of time and wire. To biamp requires an electronic (active) crossover between the preamp and power amp and the passive crossovers in the speakers have to be removed or disabled. If these conditions are not met, the so-called biamping is a pointless. Proper biamping, of course, as found in active loudspeakers is definitely worthwhile.

More info:


DUDE, did you really need to post that again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

External amplification. Well, it's been a long, long time since I've posted anything here. Mainly because the 4311 simply works and works well. At some point I may jump to the Marantz Pre but for now, busy tinkering elsewhere.

I have used in the past, three Emotiva XPA-1s for the fronts and 2 XPA-5s for everything else for all 11 channels of external amplification (yes, I can count - two extra channnels existed with this set up).I have enjoyed the external amps and truly effortless ability the Emo's have at powering my B&W 800 series speakers. However, as I am constantly tinkering with the rack, I just plain got sick of the heft of all these Amps. So, recently I switched out the XPA-1s and reverted back to the 5s and added a smaller, lighter XPA-100 for the all important center. I find the difference/ downgrade acceptable. I may believe I can hear a difference but probably just placebo. My system still plays much better at moderate to loud levels with the external amps than the internal 4311s amplification and besides, you need an external to run 11.whatever anyway.

If anyone is looking to go with external amplification, for whatever reason, I can easily recommend the XPA-5s and the newer XPA-100. Now I have one last XPA-1 to sell. My back will be happy.

Yes, I was really thinking to get the XPA-5, but they are out of stock due to the summer sale. The only other 5 channel amps they have are the UPA-500 at 80W, and the XPA-5 at 400W. I was really hoping I could get the UPA-500 and bi-amp it with the AVR internal amps, but it seems unlikely that would work well.
Edited by jasonmichaelh - 6/21/13 at 2:34pm
post #22076 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmichaelh View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Passive biamping is a waste of time and wire. To biamp requires an electronic (active) crossover between the preamp and power amp and the passive crossovers in the speakers have to be removed or disabled. If these conditions are not met, the so-called biamping is a pointless. Proper biamping, of course, as found in active loudspeakers is definitely worthwhile.

More info:


DUDE, did you really need to post that again.
 

 

 

DUDE, it seems that no matter how many times it is posted, people still think that they can biamp using an AVR's unused internal amps and an extra set of speaker terminals that were added for marketing reasons.

post #22077 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmichaelh View Post

Hi Keith?

I guess you didn't catch my full post.

Who's the guy that you linked to, Chuck? One of the points he indicates against passive bi-amping actually could actually be in favor of passively bi-amping with the internal amps of the AVR and a moderately powered external amp.

"Chuck" claims that it is cheaper to buy one 200W amp than it is to buy two 100W amps. That is not always true, but probably is more often than not. Regardless, if I were buying amplification for a new passive system, I would probably still go with one 200 or 250W amp.

BUT, in my current situation, there are already 140 clean watts there for the bass level, and it seems feasible to add a modest 80-125w external amp for the mid/treb. Are you saying that wouldn't provide additional power/headroom over and above the AVR by itself, and be cheaper than buying a 200 or 250W amp?

My only concern with passive bi-amping like that would be that the load seen by the AVR and external amp would go down, increasing the current demand. The amp or AVR might not be stable at the reduced load.

The other concern is gain matching and whether Audyssey can compensate for what the amp controls can't. I guess I could try it out with my parasound 2250 driving the bass, and the AVR the mid/treb, but I'm already worn out for the day...smile.gif

If you have anything else to add I would be glad to hear it, but I guess this is slightly off topic for this thread.

BTW - I would eventually like to try active bi-amping when I get into audio component DIY mode, but for now I'm working with the unmodified manufactured components of this system.

if you aren't clipping, adding amplification doesn't do anything. Real content will have something like 25 percent or less of its power content in the tweeter range, so IF you are using every milliwatt of your 140 watts for peaksat the mid/woofer, you need about 35 watts to give you everything you can use in the tweeter. 175 watts total, which isn't more than one decibel louder than 140 watts. Why worry? and if you attach a 200 watt amp to the tweeters (and get it properly calibrated versus the amp driving the mid/woof) you'll still only get an additional 35 watts because the signal just never will call for more.

The only cogent potential argument for passive biamping that I've seen came from Nick at Anthem, who IIRC recognizes it's an unusual case were it provides any benefit, and the benefit is very limited. But if we assume that person X is clipping on peaks, as we all should know, clipping adds higher harmonics. The harmonics in the tweeter's range, even though perhaps relatively low in level, can be annoying (and highly noticeable). So passive biamping probably doesn't stop you from clipping on the amp driving the mids/woofers, but the amp driving the tweeters will not clip because it's not putting out much power. The only clipping harmonics that get reprodueced in the speaker will be those in the mid/woofer passband, which may be significantly less objectionable. but with typical 2 or 3 KHz crossovers you still get full effect of the woofer amp clipping up to 1KHx, where our hearing just happens to be most sensitive.

But you'd really still rather not be clipping at all, by using an amp with enough power to drive the speakers to the needed levels cleanly. Some speakers, like my former Magies, cross over significantly lower (like 600 Hz for the 1.6Q) which makes the power division somewhat closer to equal. But even if you could use all the power, doubling power is 3 dB (one "notch" louder to most folks) assuming that at the amps' limit your speakers are not compressing. Then it might be one dB or less actual gain (but you'll get the added "excitement" of the speaker-compressed sound.
Edited by JHAz - 6/21/13 at 3:45pm
post #22078 of 23177
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

if you aren't clipping, adding amplification doesn't do anything. Real content will have something like 25 percent or less of its power content in the tweeter range, so IF you are using every milliwatt of your 140 watts for peaksat the mid/woofer, you need about 35 watts to give you everything you can use in the tweeter. 175 watts total, which isn't more than one decibel louder than 140 watts. Why worry? and if you attach a 200 watt amp to the tweeters (and get it properly calibrated versus the amp driving the mid/woof) you'll still only get an additional 35 watts because the signal just never will call for more.

The only cogent potential argument for passive biamping that I've seen came from Nick at Anthem, who IIRC recognizes it's an unusual case were it provides any benefit, and the benefit is very limited. But if we assume that person X is clipping on peaks, as we all should know, clipping adds higher harmonics. The harmonics in the tweeter's range, even though perhaps relatively low in level, can be annoying (and highly noticeable). So passive biamping probably doesn't stop you from clipping on the amp driving the mids/woofers, but the amp driving the tweeters will not clip because it's not putting out much power. The only clipping harmonics that get reprodueced in the speaker will be those in the mid/woofer passband, which may be significantly less objectionable. but with typical 2 or 3 KHz crossovers you still get full effect of the woofer amp clipping up to 1KHx, where our hearing just happens to be most sensitive.

But you'd really still rather not be clipping at all, by using an amp with enough power to drive the speakers to the needed levels cleanly. Some speakers, like my former Magies, cross over significantly lower (like 600 Hz for the 1.6Q) which makes the power division somewhat closer to equal. But even if you could use all the power, doubling power is 3 dB (one "notch" louder to most folks) assuming that at the amps' limit your speakers are not compressing. Then it might be one dB or less actual gain (but you'll get the added "excitement" of the speaker-compressed sound.

 

+1. Whichever way you look at it, passive biamping serves no real purpose and the money, time and effort is better expended elsewhere. Now proper biamping, as found in active loudspeakers, is a totally different kettle of fish and delivers fabulous results, mainly because the speaker designer knows 100% exactly which amp will be used with which driver and can therefore fine tune both the driver (in design) and the amp (via DSP) to work perfectly together. And for anyone building their own speakers, the opportunity to use electronic (active) crossovers and dedicated amps also opens up many possibilities. 

 

But "passive" biamping.... well, there's a reason they call it 'fool's biamping'...

post #22079 of 23177
Need a quick solution or work around. I was using airplay last summer pretty successfully. Tried to us it this morning and it won't work. I know It can be unreliable so I decided to hook up the ipad direct via USB and the receiver recognizes the song in th display but no sound....even out of the main zone. Any ideas?
post #22080 of 23177
Hi guys.... Question as i am not sure this can be done .... I have 2 denin 4311s right now at home. I like setting on one of them and so i want to transfer these settings to new 4311, how do i do that. And in terms of setting i mean everything, Eq, audyssey settings, etc etc.

Basicalle, i need my second 4311 unit to sound identical to current one. Any suggestions?

Thanks
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