The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 75

+1

Why don't you adjust the EQ curve manually to match the 7005? (or at least to match what your ears like)

I found that with my loaner AVR-1910 I had the same thing with my PMC's OMB1's - 6db on the bottom end... Sounded "less than full"... changed that to -2db and everything sounds much nicer..

Ok, so I redid the calibration on both receivers. Back to back, same spots (roughly, I did not mark them). Results (distance, correction):

Marantz:

FL: 3.27 m, -2.5 dB
C: 3.06 m, -1.5 dB
FR: 3.30 m, -3.5 dB
SL: 1.86 m, -1.5 dB
SR: 2.01 m, -1.5 dB
SBL: 2.31 m, -3 dB
SBR: 2.40 m, -2.5 dB
FHL: 3.60 m, +1 dB
FHR: 3.66 m, -0.5 dB
SW: 2.22 m, +1 dB

Crossovers (F/C/S/Back/Height): 40/80/60/40/40 Hz

Denon:

FL: 3.30 m, -3.5 dB
C: 3.06 m, -2 dB
FR: 3.33 m, -3.5 dB
SL: 1.89 m, -2 dB
SR: 2.01 m, -2 dB
SBL: 2.31 m, -4 dB
SBR: 2.40 m, -3.5 dB
FHL: 3.63 m, 0 dB
FHR: 3.66 m, -1 dB
SW: 2.25 m, -5 dB

Crossovers (F/C/S/Back/Height): Full/60/60/40/40 Hz


Note, amazingly close distance measurements.

So... the difference in the subwoofer level is there. I dialed back the sub a tiny bit to bring it closer to the 75 dB XT32 calls for during calibration, hence got -5 dB now vs -7 dB before, still 6 dB difference vs. Marantz.

Anyway.... after more listening involving more kinds of music I am starting to... prefer the Denon! I also got my wife involved and she had clear preference for the Denon's sound, particularly for classical and vocal pieces - practically right off the bat (and she could not care less, nor knew which one I set up).

Marantz appears more dynamic but now I think it is somewhat misleading. It has more edge, and gives impression of more detailed sounds, but perhaps in reality it's just harsher - brighter? Also the bass is indeed more pronounced, even with Audyssey disabled (very small difference but we both agreed it was there). With Audyssey + DynEq it actually puts out too much bass. I liked it for some rock/pop pieces, but after listening to some classic, jazz I think it just way exaggerates it. For example after listening to a piece with some string bass Marantz was clearly overdoing the bass, and the string bass instrument did not sound like one, it was just one deep boomy mess, while it sounded just right with Denon.

I also per the Audyssey guy's suggestion (from the official Audyssey thread) set front speakers to small, despite them being detected as large. This is indeed better choice, the bass sounds cleaner.

So here it is. I totally like results, since having the fronts on all the time without having to choose between them and backs is great. Ratatouille's opening sequence with rain is flat out awesome.

I don't think that is a rumor, just somebody's wild speculation based on the thoughts in his head and hardly makes sense to me.

Hi,

OK here we go:

1- the package is tough and even if it's not quite a double boxing, it's almost that... see picture.

2- the total weight of the box is 23.2kgs and the A100 itself weights 18.5kgs... on my scale... the impression given is a product VERY tough, compact, dense...

3- yes it is made in Japan, as far as this European version is concerned,

4- the black glossy finish is very nice (see picture). In my opinion it is very sober and feels definitively High End. It is something close to the Pioneer Elite finish. This is esthetical matter, subjective by definition, but in my opinion it clearly gives the impression that you get what you pay for...

5- the picture took from above (sorry there won't be any "topless"...) seem to indicate that the (amplifier) radiators than those of the 4311. This as far as the published pictures of the 4311 are concerned. (see picture)

Now concerning the AVR A100 itself. The availability of this product (as far as France is concerned) is limited to 100 pieces only. My dealer (well known Parisian dealer) got only 5 pieces of this product even if he ordered 20 of them (and I got one of these few )...

The price here is 2500€ (yes that's the list price...) and at this present moment no discount is offered (even to "good old" clients)... so we'll discuss "value" after the installation .

Now I'm going to install this product today, it will take the place of my actual Onkyo 5007 + SVS AS EQ1.

I'll keep you posted with the first impressions. Even though this would have been better if Audyssey have made available their 3.4 Pro software for an Audyssey Pro calibration of this A100, as I have the Audyssey Pro Kit...

Hugo

Congrats Hugo.

Interested to hear of the differences compared with the Onkyo/AS-EQ1. I wonder if your Manual specifies what DACs are used?

I posted a question to the Denon Facebook page the other day asking if there was an update on the release of the Airplay download. Today they replied with the following:

"As a follow up, Apple is upgrading what Airplay's capabilities and is now expecting a release the end of November."

I wonder what the "upgraded capabilities" will be .

Congrats Hugo..Looks great, any chance of getting a rear shot? The Binding post suppose to be different as well? Or is it just the in's/ and outs?

Thanks

Djoel

Great pics! Definitely has a more high end look than the 4311. The binding posts are supposed to be upgraded, I have seen pictures where they are clear plastic as opposed to the red/black of the 4311.


Forgot to mention: when I talked to Denon tech support, she said the Airplay update will be FREE (contrary to some rumors, it's not an upgrade).

As for upgraded capabilities ... anyone thinking video streaming? We can hope!

Unclemat and others.

It is interesting to see how very close the speaker placement was by Audyssey between the two receivers. Also, in most cases the boost db range for each setting was very, very close. This is probably why your answers (as are mine) often subjective in regards to actual sound playback. The sub, being so far off between the two would be apparent. Glad to hear you are getting it dialed down. Frankly, the differences between most modern receivers as far as sound goes, IMHO is more related to the EQ features and less to what type of amp topography is utilized.

So hear is where I have a question. I set my mains to 60HZ crossover as well as most of my surrounds. Only the smaller heights and Rear Surrounds did I set to 80Hz. Audyssey initially set the Left and Right to Full. So, as noted, I over rode as I use to do with the 4810. I also have the subs taking LFE and Main. I listen to most stuff at around -10 db to -20 db on the Denon and use Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume (Day or Evening - Evening after the kids crash).

So.... unlike Unclemat, I seem to be getting too much bass (For my taste). For the first time since owning them, my little B&W ASW 2500s are getting slogged around nightly. No flailing subs yet but boy, there is quite a bit of content going in and roughing up my subs. :-)

Should I ditch the LFE + Main setting and let my quite capable fronts play non LFE material down to the mid 30ish HZ range? Will this take any load off the subs? I set the front sub to around 78 79 db and the rear to around 75db when I did my initial EQ. As noted, I am no engineer. I just assumed the Denon EQ process smoothed this out to volume match as long as the subs were in the range required to take a reading. If I set the subs down a notch and re-EQ'd would this bring down overall sub output, say 3db or so?

I really like the sound from my subs, it's just that the volume is a bit surprising vs the old 4810. Low Bass sounds quite tight but I am concerned that when I finally do get to play a reference level action movie, it will just be too much Bass. I know that Dynamic Volume is boosting the Bass at non reference levels and at reference this will be turned off, but just looking for ideas.

Not to be a douche... but here I go

It may be those pictures don't do it justice but from where I stand the A100 does not look different enough to warrant the price difference.
If (4311 sound quality) = (A100 sound quality) then (price difference) = not worth it.

The fact that my AVR is squirreled away in a cabinet may be swaying my judgement.
However, for me, paying the A100 premium is like paying for cosmetic surgery and then moving to Antarctica. No one will see it!

That being said I still want one. But... my gear must be more awesomer than yours! I'd fly My Precious back to Japan and convince high profile Denon employees to dremel inscribe their signatures on the top panel. Cheif among them Mr. Denon himself. He's been there 100 years! Oh, and I'd get them to twist one extra coil in there somewhere so the insides of My Precious WILL be different.

At most this will add a few thousand dollars to the price of the A100. But, even though I'm 33 mom still pays for everything. I "have" the money so why not right?

It is a tough call though. After typing this all out it seems a little impractical... wait... I just found a discount code! It's on!

SeattleHTGuy -- the LFE+MAIN setting is actually irrelevant when speakers are set to SMALL. It only affects the bass of full band speakers (allowing the low end to go to the sub for "double bass"). So that isn't the problem

did you remember to dial down the Reference Offset? You might have had that setting adjusted (e.g. by 10dB) on the 4810 but forgot to do it on new unit. That is usually the cure for bloated bass from the cable box and music sources...

Thanks, I usually set the Reference Offset to default 0. also, thanks for the LFE + Main explanation. I think that I'll need to dig deeper on this. I actually was getting too much Bass for my tastes with a Blu Ray "Star Trek" viewing last night. It was and is a fantastic audio track. I really didn't want to tone down using the Reference Offset feature for high quality movies but this may do it.

hmm, it's interesting that you are getting that issue with a Blu-ray. Did you view this same film with the 4810?

it's a bit weird that there would be a big bass/LFE difference between the two units...

Yes, I did review. This is why I am confused. It is a substantial difference. I'm not sure why and deciphering the manual, I am at a loss. It's not like it's bad and perhaps with the EQ XT 32 more like it should be but given UncleMat's observation of being dialed down a ton from the Marantz, this is where our first impressions differ greatly. For good TV 5.1 content, I can definitely say I prefer the 4311, for movies (the somewhat elevated Bass is great), I am almost a bit concerned of trying at full reference until I figure out what I have heard so far. The B&Ws will protect themselves but at -12 db with the last movie, the little subs were playing pretty hard.

Btw, I have the reference offset set to 15 dB for DynEQ - only for music. For movies, I keep it at 0 dB (per the manual recommendation).

Remember that DynEQ is making a compensation to bring the bass back to reference levels, in terms of the way humans perceive it (equal loudness). At reference, DynEQ should not be making ANY compensation whatsoever. So you shouldn't be hearing elevated bass when you're actually at reference volume, at least not due to DynEQ.

I think it'd be worth a try, as you mentioned those B&W subs have good protection ... unless you're hearing distortion or excessive cabinet vibration you're OK. I wonder if you've even heard them play that loud before! Worse comes to worse you could always make manual adjustments via the tone controls or the sub level control. Or, at less than reference, the DynEQ offset, it is a user preference setting so you shouldn't feel like you're sacrificing anything by changing it. I played with it quite a bit until I found 10dB was my preferred setting for music.

Lower the sub level?

If my receiver was hidden away in a cabinet or behind glass, I'd have a 4311 now...but my current set-up has the receiver centered just below the TV. The finish of the A100, IMHO, is head & shoulders above the 4311 and that was the main reason for me why I went that route. I would think you'd get some extra resale $$ due to its exclusivity and of course the special block condensors and the gold bling posts are a must have...LOL.

Damn, so retro...... I guess that is a solution.....

Time to double check all your connections to be sure that you don't have something wired backwards.

Also, do both units have the same version of Audyssey? I thought the Marantz has the version before 32. Is that incorrect?

Do the differences still exist when you turn off Audyssey in both?

I don't recall--did you measure your sub levels with the SPL? After XT32 calibration, my combined sub level was approximately 5 dB lower than the satellite levels. I raised the combined sub trim level in the AVR and it sounds normal to me.

Is there really a good reason to spend the extra $500 for the A100? I will only be using the processor side of the 4311 and not sure I'll even get beyond 7:2 but I want audyssey xt32. Use will be 99% Home theater with bluray's and FIOS HDTV.

Your thoughts please.... I'd like to get one of them on order. I need to upgrade my lexicon DC-2...it's time

If you have to ask the question the answer is probably no.

Gee, great idea. I'll hit the SPL Meter tonight. didn't even think of it, too busy watching stuff. I will report back as it appears others have noted lower sub output.

To me the main reason to get the AVR-A100 is because you are a denon enthusiast, have plans to purchase other 100-year Anniversary gear, and want it all to aesthetically match.

Thank you for your most helpful response.

There is always the issue of the RS SPL's response at low frequencies. To minimize this, I used the SPL level-setting tool in REW, with the RS SPL calibration file loaded. This should give you a ball-park reading of the sub level versus the level of your satellites. I'm looking forward to what you discover.

I'm not being a jerk.

The people buying the A100 seem to be money is no object "I want the best even if there's no difference" and the people buying the 4311 seem to be "this is the biggest bang for the buck on the market right now".

So if you are thinking to yourself "Is this worth $500" then I'm going to put you in the no camp just for asking the question.

Or you can sit back and watch another 2-3 pages of arguments back and forth between both camps whether or not the A100 has better DACs or some other black magic going on inside.

Besides the differences mentioned which are chiefly aesthetic, the fact that its hand crafted means its received special attention and less likely to fail, hence the long 5 year warranty. That alone is worth a few hundred to me.