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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 750

post #22471 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitebell View Post

don't poo poo it until you've tried it.

I'm not going to poo-poo anything. But you shouldn't expect advice here when what you are trying to do is contrary to conventional wisdom. Proceed at your own risk.
post #22472 of 23136
I might have it confused with something else but, isn't Multi Ch Stereo sending the L/R signal to all the speakers?

That wouldn't be very optimal for movies.
post #22473 of 23136
Yes correct. In this case though it is "optimal" in the sense that it obscures the fact that his fronts are being fed by two different discrete channels! eek.gif that's the only reason it could sound good as currently configured.
post #22474 of 23136
Far be from me to go against the fine collection of audio experts on this forum. However, an audio expert worth his salt would never argue with what is heard through his or his client's ears. The clear image and depth of the sound that I hear listening to music (not blue-ray fluff) with my setup is by far superior to all other methods suggested, believe me I've tried most of them.

JD Thanks for the lickem' and stickem' plastic floor conduit suggestion, it would just look too cheap and unsightly in my setup. Living in Florida you must run into open floor plans all the time, it doesn't do audio any favors . Makes me want to start putting up walls. If you are ever in the Punta Gorda area please stop by and hear what I'm trying to convey to this forum, you may end up with a different opinion. Paul K.
post #22475 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Yes correct. In this case though it is "optimal" in the sense that it obscures the fact that his fronts are being fed by two different discrete channels! eek.gif that's the only reason it could sound good as currently configured.

 

 

I think it is really "5-channel Stereo".  What signal is actually sent to the speakers in this mode?  Is the left channel sent to the left front and the left surround, the right channel to the right front and the right surround, and a mono blend to the center channel?  Then what signal goes to the heights and wides?

post #22476 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post


I think it is really "5-channel Stereo".  What signal is actually sent to the speakers in this mode?  Is the left channel sent to the left front and the left surround, the right channel to the right front and the right surround, and a mono blend to the center channel?  Then what signal goes to the heights and wides?

Jerry,

Depending on the number of amps, Denon has used to the terms 5-Channel Stereo and 7-Channel Stereo and oddly enough, on the 4310 with it's 9 amps it was still called 7-Channel Stereo, but in the 4311 manual they call it Multi-Channel Stereo.

The 4311 manual simply states:

This mode is for enjoying stereo sound from all speakers

My old 3300 manual describes it in much better detail:

In this mode, the signals of the front left channel are output from the left surround channel, the signals of the front right channel are output from the right surround channel, and the same (in-phase) component of the left and right channels is output from the center channel. This mode provides all speaker surround sound, but without directional steering effects, and works with any stereo program source

I'm not finding any documentation to say for sure, but circumstantial evidence suggests that the left wide and heights would receive left channel signal, and the right left wide and heights would receive the right channel signal.
Edited by Brent A - 9/13/13 at 8:05am
post #22477 of 23136
That is my understanding. All stereo pairs of speakers receive an exact copy of the FR/FL content, and the center receives mono summation of in phase signals.

What's interesting (and potentially dangerous) is that the individual crossovers appear to be ignored, and in Multich Stereo mode the crossover set for the FR/FL speakers is applied to ALL speakers. This is not documented but I discovered it empirically in the past.
post #22478 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent A View Post

Jerry,

Depending on the number of amps, Denon has used to the terms 5-Channel Stereo and 7-Channel Stereo and oddly enough, on the 4310 with it's 9 amps it was still called 7-Channel Stereo, but in the 4311 manual they call it Multi-Channel Stereo.

.

Keep in mind the 4310CI is only a 7CH AVR as both Surrounds A + B are driven off the same amp so the "5/7 CH Stereo" naming is appropriate and when the 4311CI/A100 were released and capable of expanding to 9CH the term was changed to "Multi CH Stereo" for all XX11 and newer models.
post #22479 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Keep in mind the 4310CI is only a 7CH AVR as both Surrounds A + B are driven off the same amp so the "5/7 CH Stereo" naming is appropriate and when the 4311CI/A100 were released and capable of expanding to 9CH the term was changed to "Multi CH Stereo" for all XX11 and newer models.

JD,

My bad. I remembered it being 9.1 channel capable but forgot that it only had 7 internal amps.
Thanks for the clarification.
post #22480 of 23136
I've been a happy AVR-4311 owner for 1.5 years now, and in all that time I've had the AVR do "video conversion" (a menu option). It's nice because it overlays the Denon graphics onto the screen providing good info like volume. I was running HDMI (source) >>>> HDMI (Denon) >>> HDMI (Panny VT25 plasma TV)

Last week, I had my Panny plasma calibrated by an excellent ISF/THX-certified calibrator. First thing he did was ask me to turn off the video processing so that the AVR passed the video untouched. I was skeptical, but I did so, and he completed his calibration. When done, I put the AVR processing back on and was amazed that the PQ changed - for the worse.

So - give it a try and disable the video processing and see if you notice a positive difference.
post #22481 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilbur_the_goose View Post

I've been a happy AVR-4311 owner for 1.5 years now, and in all that time I've had the AVR do "video conversion" (a menu option). It's nice because it overlays the Denon graphics onto the screen providing good info like volume. I was running HDMI (source) >>>> HDMI (Denon) >>> HDMI (Panny VT25 plasma TV)

Last week, I had my Panny plasma calibrated by an excellent ISF/THX-certified calibrator. First thing he did was ask me to turn off the video processing so that the AVR passed the video untouched. I was skeptical, but I did so, and he completed his calibration. When done, I put the AVR processing back on and was amazed that the PQ changed - for the worse.

So - give it a try and disable the video processing and see if you notice a positive difference.

There are two settings in the AVR you should be concerned with. One is video conversion, like you say. The other one is IP Scaler, which if enabled means that the AVR will handle up-converting the video signal to the native resolution of your display (1080P, I suspect).

The IP Scaler setting has the potential of making your display's PQ either better or worse, depending on how well the AVR does the up conversion. However, the video conversion setting should not have any effect on the PQ. So, are you sure you are not confusing the two settings? Regardless, if you perceive a loss of PQ, then you are faced with a difficult choice--giving up the AVR display overlays on the TV is a real PITA.

Edit: I just tried toggling Video Convert, and I didn't notice any difference in the PQ. Of course, it is difficult to tell, because toggling the setting forces an HDMI handshake, so it is not a very quick A/B comparison. I do not have IP Scaling enabled on my AVR.
Edited by AustinJerry - 9/16/13 at 6:01am
post #22482 of 23136
The second setting is SCALING not conversion. Pedantic but when making the distinction it's important to keep the terminology precise. Changing resolution = scaling / deinterlacing.
post #22483 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilbur_the_goose View Post

I've been a happy AVR-4311 owner for 1.5 years now, and in all that time I've had the AVR do "video conversion" (a menu option). It's nice because it overlays the Denon graphics onto the screen providing good info like volume. I was running HDMI (source) >>>> HDMI (Denon) >>> HDMI (Panny VT25 plasma TV)

Last week, I had my Panny plasma calibrated by an excellent ISF/THX-certified calibrator. First thing he did was ask me to turn off the video processing so that the AVR passed the video untouched. I was skeptical, but I did so, and he completed his calibration. When done, I put the AVR processing back on and was amazed that the PQ changed - for the worse.

So - give it a try and disable the video processing and see if you notice a positive difference.

That's not surprising. I would even think that should be the expected case. The calibrator optimized your display with the video processing off. Turning it back on will render the calibration incorrect since the TV input is no longer getting the same signal from the 4311 it was expecting.
post #22484 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The second setting is SCALING not conversion. Pedantic but when making the distinction it's important to keep the terminology precise. Changing resolution = scaling / deinterlacing.

Thanks for being pedantic--I agree, it is important to use precise terminology. What is your opinion on Video Conversion? Should this setting affect the PQ?
post #22485 of 23136
My results are like yours and most others. Simply turning on video conversion to enable overlays shouldn't have ANY negative impact on PQ. Maybe in test patterns (MAYBE) but certainly not with real program material.

The OP didn't exactly clarify what "for the worse" means. Plus we don't known if any of the other PQ settings (brightness contrast etc) have been tweaked in the receiver, which would be bypassed when video conversion is turned off.
post #22486 of 23136
Hi everyone,

So I am trying to understand what the 4311CI is doing with a two channel analog input as I was under the impression that it didn't digitize the analog inputs. I know it doesn't for the multi-channel inputs but what about the EXT. IN? The reason I ask is that I was feeding in an analog signal, leaving the signal as stereo so as to adjust distance settings for my subwoofers, and it definitely affects the frequency response so I know it is working. Audyssey is also engaged etc.

Is this just not documented?

Cheers.
post #22487 of 23136
Quote:
I know it doesn't for the multi-channel inputs but what about the EXT. IN?

The multich analog inputs ARE the EXT IN inputs. It's the same thing.

Regular RCA stereo analog inputs are digitized unless you are playing in DIRECT modes. How else could you have Audyssey engaged??? All processing (Audyssey, bass management, etc) takes place in the digital domain so it's implicit if you are using any of those features.
post #22488 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The multich analog inputs ARE the EXT IN inputs. It's the same thing.

Regular RCA stereo analog inputs are digitized unless you are playing in DIRECT modes. How else could you have Audyssey engaged??? All processing (Audyssey, bass management, etc) takes place in the digital domain so it's implicit if you are using any of those features.

Thanks!

This raises a question - how are they able to do DIRECT mode LFE+Main bass if they aren't in the digital domain? I.e. steering RCA analog stereo input in DIRECT mode bass for 2CH Direct/Stereo listening? Just curious.

Cheers.
post #22489 of 23136
You really would need to be an engineer with a schematic to know for sure.... but my theory is that it's a "split path", where the signal that goes to the subwoofer is digitized in order to be summed and pass through the low-pass filter before going to the SW out, while the stereo signal going to the L/R mains stays "pure". If engaging LFE+MAIN required digitizing the full signal then there's no reason why it couldn't pass through the full bass management block (so the L/R stereo signal would get an HPF in addition to the LPF on the subwoofer content). The fact that the L/R signal stays full range in DIRECT modes implies to me that it's staying in the analog domain.
post #22490 of 23136
The difference in PQ was in the white level, which was quite a bit higher with the video conversion on versus off.

All I know is that after the calibration, my picture now looks like a photograph. I just wish I did the calibration two years ago!
post #22491 of 23136
I don't think there's a real fix for this and that's ok, but I'll throw it out there anyway:

So I watch movies outside with my PJ and accomplish audio and video this way:

1. Audio: since I cannot send HDMI audio to the zones, I send it out from my popcorn hour/directv via optical or coax. 2 channel PCM.

2. Video: simply HDMI from the device and then I use the 2nd HDMI output from the 4311.

As you can imagine I have lip sync issues. Now, I can alleviate them a bit by using the lipsync function on my popcorn hour but it's a pain to say the least. I'm hoping there's something I can do on the Z2 Denon-side, but I don't think there is- I'm at work but I'm pretty sure that there's no l-sync adjustments in there wink.gif ...and that would be nice cause it could be set it and forget seeing it would never matter with music, straightaway.

I've always been aware of the delay between z1 and 2&3 but it never really mattered much...until now.

I was considering the "b speaker" move but it simply won't work for my scenario.

thanks for any ideas.

My though is that the 4520 could solve this issue with "all zone stereo" via hdmi. Hmmmmm. But then doesn't the 4520 have discreet hdmi outputs for z1 and z4? I'd like to be able to send two different outputs to each if I went that direction (and "all stereo" would override the audio to both, I'm assuming? I guess this also assumes there's no delay to the zones when all stereo is switched on, too). Sorry, just thinking aloud.


James
Edited by mastermaybe - 9/17/13 at 8:59am
post #22492 of 23136
Trying to setup as suggested re: bi-amped fronts. I reset the micro processor an connected the front woofers to Front L&R terminals then connected the Front Mid's and cone to "Amp Assign" F-Wide terminals. Prior to running Audyssey I entered Amp Assign and selected Bi-Amp F-Wide and backed out then started Auto setup. The problem is that Audyssey still tries to calibrate Surround L&R but there are no speakers connected anymore. How do I correct this issue. Thanks!
post #22493 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I don't think there's a real fix for this and that's ok, but I'll throw it out there anyway:

So I watch movies outside with my PJ and accomplish audio and video this way:

1. Audio: since I cannot send HDMI audio to the zones, I send it out from my popcorn hour/directv via optical or coax. 2 channel PCM.

2. Video: simply HDMI from the device and then I use the 2nd HDMI output from the 4311.

As you can imagine I have lip sync issues. Now, I can alleviate them a bit by using the lipsync function on my popcorn hour but it's a pain to say the least. I'm hoping there's something I can do on the Z2 Denon-side, but I don't think there is- I'm at work but I'm pretty sure that there's no l-sync adjustments in there wink.gif ...and that would be nice cause it could be set it and forget seeing it would never matter with music, straightaway.

I've always been aware of the delay between z1 and 2&3 but it never really mattered much...until now.

I was considering the "b speaker" move but it simply won't work for my scenario.

thanks for any ideas.

My though is that the 4520 could solve this issue with "all zone stereo" via hdmi. Hmmmmm. But then doesn't the 4520 have discreet hdmi outputs for z1 and z4? I'd like to be able to send two different outputs to each if I went that direction (and "all stereo" would override the audio to both, I'm assuming? I guess this also assumes there's no delay to the zones when all stereo is switched on, too). Sorry, just thinking aloud.


James

Setting the "Video Mode" setting to "GAME" will help to mitigate Zone 1/2 audio sync issues.
post #22494 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitebell View Post

Trying to setup as suggested re: bi-amped fronts. I reset the micro processor an connected the front woofers to Front L&R terminals then connected the Front Mid's and cone to "Amp Assign" F-Wide terminals. Prior to running Audyssey I entered Amp Assign and selected Bi-Amp F-Wide and backed out then started Auto setup. The problem is that Audyssey still tries to calibrate Surround L&R but there are no speakers connected anymore. How do I correct this issue. Thanks!

Do you mean SBL/SBR as SL/SR would be in a standard 5.1 setup? Auto Setup will initially check for all speakers/sub unless you have set the speakers/sub to None.
post #22495 of 23136
^ yep JD, thanks for reminding me. Do you suppose with me actually sending the digital input from the popcorn hour to a different source (other than the popcorn hour) and then outputting it to zone 2 makes things worse? It sounded plausible at first but the more I think about it the more I think that it really shouldn't matter...what does the 4311 care what input it's outputting???

For clarity: right now I of course send the video via the HDMI as the "Popcorn Hour" (HDP) input and output through the second HDMI. But the audio from the Popcorn Hour coax is sent to my DirecTV (SAT) input and I then select that input (SAT) for Z2. I do this because it's just the way it's set up on my Harmony remote. I can of course easily flip/flop the COAX/OPTICAL inputs on the 4311 when I need to.

But again, once I "speed" up the video on the 4311 what does it matter where the Z2 audio is coming from? Just thinking out loud here and hoping I'm not missing something obvious.


EDIT: but, thinking again, perhaps putting it on the popcorn hour input and switching the popcorn audios input mode to "DIGITAL" instead of "HDMI/AUTO" could help??? Wow, this is a bit convoluted, lmao.

thanks again,

James
post #22496 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Do you mean SBL/SBR as SL/SR would be in a standard 5.1 setup? Auto Setup will initially check for all speakers/sub unless you have set the speakers/sub to None.

Thanks JD
I guess I was using S-back when I should have used S-L&R, after switching it work fine.
post #22497 of 23136
How many of the A100's were actually produced for North America? I read 500(NA), 2500(World Wide)
post #22498 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin. W View Post

What was the production run of the AVR100? The say its a limited edition

It was limited in that it was a special anniversary model although have no idea of the total production run.
post #22499 of 23136
Hello i got a 9.1 setup. But i dont get sound out of my wide speakers only with multi channel stereo.
I have connected fronts, front heights, surround and wides.
I used just the normal connections as descibed on the backside of the receiver.. no biamp.
The setting of receiver amp is on normal.
The speakers are enabled.

Somebody got an idea while i dont hear sound out of the wides during a movie?
post #22500 of 23136

^Hi.  Does pressing the DSX button not work?  (OM p90)

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