The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 96

This blue "Artifact" issue on a couple A100s, looks suspicously like a video chip hardware problem. In addition the guy who went in to the store and got all the gooblygoock speak on the A100 being vastly superior also got blown some smoke. Don't get me wrong, if the A100 was around when I needed a replacement for the 4810, I'd of snagged it.

Moral here....... Many retail "even esoteric shop guys" are idiots. They are often arrogant, obnoxious and uninformed.

The site is getting a bit mired down in problems; half or more of which are probably either first time attempters or really weird systems. I think the DVDO to 4311 double video editing is a bit strange.... Sorry if I offend. But the artifacts shown should not occur. EDID handshake issues are easier to figure out and they are not easy. Search helps across AVS and other forums though. Try searching blue artifcacts and the Panny Plasma you both own. Something may pop up.

Thanks for the info, I'm a beginner when it comes to video standards etc.

I just finished my first Pro 3.4 calibration. Other than the subwoofer level-setting section (very similar to the standard XT32), everything else was essentially the same as the 3.3 calibration. I am doing my listening tests right now, and I'll post a more detailed report tomorrow. The Pro 3.4 software is available for download on the Audyssey web site.

I just finished mounting my height speakers. After I give my kids a bath and put them to bed I will be running Audyssey Pro on my 4311 as well.

help!
disclaimer: total newbie

replaced a dsp-a1 with a avs-a100 & emotiva xpa-5.

ive wired the speakers to the amp
connected the amp to the pre-outs on the a100
connected the 12v trigger

selected pre-amp & none under speaker setup on the a100.

connected cable box to the a100 (hdmi), connected hdmi out to tv.
i can see the picture, but cant hear anything on any speaker
amp turns on when the a100 does.

errr what have i missed? theres no audio.

Here is a comparison that shows the difference between a Pro calibration on my previous AVR (4308CI) and the 4311CI. The speakers are the same, and the measurement spots (11 measurements) are exactly the same. The 4308 calibration was on top of an AS-EQ1 calibration. The AS-EQ1 has since been retired, and the 4311 calibration is with Sub EQ HT.

The Pro 3.4 calibration is showing significantly smoother results below 200 Hz for the left and right satellites. Overall, the 3.4 calibration on the 4311 is showing some pretty good graphs. Now for the listening tests (assuming I don't fall asleep... ).

Looking forward to Counsil's feedback!

Make sure you set your sources correctly to use the HDMI.

Wow, this 'blue rain' looks like a real deal breaker. I'm getting my unit tomorrow (well, at least it's supposed to). I also have a Panny plasma, so will post once I test it out. Does it happen right away or after it's been playing for some time?

Ok, that's just cool. It is interesting to see what the Sub EQ really does. Looking forward to some really subjective listening.

Make sure the switches on the back of the xpa-5 are set to un-balanced or you won't get any sound.

The HDMI indicator on my BDP-83 blinks regularly when it's not the selected input. I assume the 4311 is polling inputs for some nefarious reason. This may be standard Denon behavior but it's new to me. I'm sure it's a bad idea.

New A100 has arrived. While I didn't have a ton of time to play much after setting her up, I did have a few observations.

1) remote..surprisingly useful.. love how the remote attempts to resemble the A100 shiny face
1a) fit and finish of the A100 Is supremo. It's a slightly leaner version of the 4810 with a much cleaner backside. Nice connectors and no unneeded legacy crap..The weight is there. The thing has got some heft. The total shipping weight was 57.3 oft which 43-45 is all A100.
2) dual sub calibrations...wow..just wow. Everything is tight and not overly boomy sounding. Whatever it does it does right because my 2 svs subs sound like one. They seem to be. Perfect match. Even the wife commented that she couldn't hear as much boom.
3) Xt32 does a much better job at tying everything together nicely. I played the battle scene of Avatar and immediately noticed a difference in sound effects. Surrounds were clear and not drowned out and the ability to set width of the wide channels was something the 4810 did not offer. This thing is making me so glad I added those wides and heights, even though the room isn't exactly perfect. I'm hearing ambient effects I never noticed before. wWOW
4). Not something you wanna hide in a closet those solid legs and shiny face are beautiful.

I plan on giving the video section and some streaming a go tomorrow and perhaps post some photos of the new toy. Overall a great unit and def sonically slightly better than the 4810 in my setup. I have not noticed any blu rain affects nor dropouts synch issues with my sony es1000, dtv,fpj1projector. Looks good more to come.

Willie,

Thanks for the heads up dude.. I owe ya one..

keep the reviews coming guys! you've been spectacularly helpful to this future 4311 owner. SeatleHTGuy, keep the updates coming, thanks!

What have you guys done with the dropout problem? I get it when playing xbox on my panasonic AE-2000 projector, drops out a second or two and the receiver clicks.

On mine it shows up within a couple of minutes at least. It's more about hitting material that triggers it.

I am subscribed to several forums here. When I go to the User Control Panel I see the forums which have new posts. If I don't have time to review all forums with new posts in a particular sitting ... when I come back the next time those forums which were not reviewed in the first sitting are not redisplayed. It's as if all forums are reset with a new times-tamp when I go into the control panel. Is there a way to avoid this global time-stamp reset?

Mario,

That's great stuff and I'm glad I was able to assist after some kind forum members passed the information on to me.

I received my A100 yesterday also, but I've only unpacked it. I was surprised by the girth of this AVR and I can only imagine the 4311 being slightly less. It's not a boat anchor, but most without taking out their scales and weighing their components will be happy with either.


Willie

Here is my report on the new Audyssey Pro 3.4 calibration.

My system:

Currently a 7.2 configuration
Denon 4311
Emotiva XPA-3 powering LCR
PSB Synchrony One LR towers + center channel
Definitive Technologies ProCinema 1000 surrounds and surround backs

Differences from Pro 3.3:

1. The first step in the measurement sequence is the level-setting of the two subs. It is essentially identical to the level-setting screens in the standard Sub EQ HT. After a rough adjustment of the sub levels, the first measurement pings each sub separately, and then both together.
2. The speaker configuration screen now includes options to include heights and wides.

Otherwise, the 3.4 software is essentially identical to version 3.3.

Speed:

The time it takes to ping the speakers seems to be faster, like observed with standard XT32. However, the time it takes to transfer settings at the end of each ping seems to be longer. The time it takes to calculate filters and determine crossover settings is definitely longer. I suspect both of the longer observed times are due to the fact that there is more data to work with (because of the increased resolution). Regardless, I didn't get the feeling that the overall calibration took excessively long.

Issues encountered:

1. On two occasions, when I selected Denon xx11CI from the device list, I received the error message A different model is connected. On both occasions, re-selecting cleared the error.
2. I get timeouts on the Serial-to-USB connection if there is no activity for a short period of time (e.g. if a pause between two measurements). The timeout is cleared by unplugging and re-inserting the USB cable. I believe this is a laptop or Win7 issue, not an Audyssey software issue.

Results:

I have attached two calibration certificates. Both calibrations involve the same set of speakers, the same number of measurement points, and with extreme care that the measurement points are consistent between calibrations. The first is a Pro 3.3 calibration using my previous AVR, a Denon 4308, with the subs being pre-calibrated using an AS-EQ1. The second is the Pro 3.4 calibration using my current Denon 4311, with the AS-EQ1 out of the loop. There is a significant improvement in the left, right and center results, especially below 200 Hz. The sub calibration is essentially the same, showing the Sub EQ HT is as at least as good as the AS-EQ1 (which is very important).

Comparison with Standard XT32 calibration:

I have attached a screen print showing a comparison of the speaker distances and levels, measured first with the standard XT32, and then with Pro 3.4.

The distance calculations are essentially the same, except for the two subwoofers, which is peculiar. Pro measures the subs as being equidistant, when in actuality one sub is approximately one foot further away. I need to research and understand this difference.

Levels between XT32 and Pro are significantly different, and I don't know why. When I measure the speaker levels with a RS SPL meter after the calibration, the levels are quite close to 75 dB (except the subs, see below). When I measured the levels after running XT32, the levels were closer to 73 dB. The Pro levels are close to 2 dB higher across the board. I can't explain this difference, but the speaker levels sound fine to me.

The combined sub level measures 72.5 dB, 2.5 dB lower than the satellites. I observed this with standard XT32 as well. This could be an SPL measurement anomaly (although I am using the RS SPL calibration file in REW to measure the levels). Anyway, I raised the combined sub level by 2.5 dB for the time being and will see how it sounds.

Listening tests:

Going from MultEQ XT to XT32 was a huge improvement, with improved low frequency response, and overall better definition across all frequencies. I absolutely loved the XT32 calibration. Is the Pro 3.4 calibration better yet? I can't tell with only several hours of listening so far. It's hard to improve upon the XT32 results, which were great.

One difference I do notice is that the sound is louder, because of the 2 dB higher speaker levels mentioned above. The levels are closer to what I had with MultEQ XT. No other sound differences to report at this time.

Final note: It's all good!

You guys with the audio drops out can you identify which unit (A100/ 4311) you have please..

Thanks

Djoel

I ordered the 4311 and should be coming next week. Anyway, had anyone compare running the speakers with external amp with and without the preamp mode? Any tangible improvement enable the preamp mode? The reason I ask is currently I own a XPA-5 and running 7.2 setup. If I enable preamp mode, I need to get another stereo amp or maybe a 3 channel amp to run my LCR and the rest of the surround on XPA-5.

link to serial codes please?

making me wish I paid for expedited shipping on my A100 now.. next week for me.

The distance calculations are essentially the same, except for the two subwoofers, which is peculiar. Pro measures the subs as being equidistant, when in actuality one sub is approximately one foot further away. I need to research and understand this difference.

AustinJerry..... Must be the DACs.... Send it back, it's a lightly made throw away receiver....

Thanks for the information. I was contemplating actually buying a Pro Kit and license. Now I'm not that sure. You mention a big uptick to the XT32 but if I read you correctly, the Pro Kit appearsto improved the experience just slightly and may be just a touch of placebo. Let us know how it goes, but is that an accurate summmation?

Ask and you shall receive...

I agree with you, v3.4 of Audyssey MultEQ Pro is very similar to v3.3. The time it takes to ping the speakers is just as quick in MultEQ Pro as it is in regular MultEQ XT32 in the 4311. It takes FOREVER to transfer the results from the 4311 to the PC though. It also takes a lot longer to calculate the initial set of crossovers to choose from as well. My CPU was pegged for quite some time while MultEQ Pro was doing this.

I HATE it that MultEQ Pro didn't utilize the same continuous averaging SPL method that the SVS AS-EQ1 and Audyssey Subwoofer Equalizer do. That method really helps us guys out with multiple subs on each sub output. Oh well.

So far all I have watched (listened to) are Toy Story 2, Planet 51, and Monsters vs Aliens. As you can tell, I have been watching movies with my kids this morning!

I did fit in time to watch the opening sequences of Ratatouille as it is the most recommended movie to show off what Height speakers can do.

So far, I am a lot more pleased with Audyssey Pro vs regular XT32. My front sound stage blends a lot better together. My subs sound much cleaner. XT32 made my front speakers sound a little tin'y or echo'y. My subs also seemed a bit out of phase. There were some cancellations going on.

To be honest though, I didn't give regular XT32 much of a chance. I knew that I was going to use Audyssey Pro therefore I didn't re-run XT32 a second (or third, etc) time.

IMHO, just as in the past with my Denon 3808, Audyssey Pro does a much better job determining the optimal crossovers, blending the sub with the satellites, and getting the best out of my system. The only speakers in my system that aren't bipoles (except for the subs of course) are my heights. IMO, Audyssey Pro does a much better job calibrating my Def Tech bipolars.

YMMV.

Attached is the initial Audyssey Pro certificate produced. I have since selected the top crossover for each full range speaker, which ended out being 40Hz or 60Hz.

 

Denon4311AudysseyPro.pdf 379.8095703125k . file

Other than a listening test, which is highly subjective, it's very difficult to determine if there is a measurable sound quality improvement between XT32 and Pro. The Pro software provides a measurement certificate that shows what is going on, but unfortunately standard XT32 doesn't. I have tried to use measurement software like REW to compare results, but these efforts have proved to be disappointing.

I think the improved, professionally-calibrated microphone is bound to be making some difference. Add the ability to save and re-load measurement files, the increase to 32 measurement positions, and the ability to tweak the calibration results, and Pro has some real advantages. Of course, you will need to decide whether these advantages are enough to offset the $700 entry price.

Regardless, we can all agree that the new Audyssey technology, whether using standard XT32, or the Pro Kit, is pretty cool stuff!

IMO, you guys are being a little hard on google---essentially, all he suggested was "try it". Seems to me it's a fairly simple matter to make a note of prior settings so that they can be reinstated in case your ears prefer the earlier config. Or just be prepared to rerun the automated set-up.

I also think we can become so enamored with graphs and meters that we undervalue what our own ears and brains are telling us. In my view, your perception of the sonic performance within your own HT should be the ultimate determining factor. After all, you are the HT enthusiast who listens to your theater more than anyone else. If your perception as a human listener is not to be the determinative criterion, what should be designated as a substitute?

Now, I also believe in using tools to measure audio performance in my HT, because I believe it can help improve the sound overall. But at the end of the process, what I hear and enjoy is going to be decisive in how I finally configure the audio in my theater. Truth is, no meter or graphic device in the history of the world has ever "heard" or "enjoyed" any sound. It is we humans who do that. The entire phenomenon of audio reproduction was conceived and invented by human beings and for human beings. The intent of these ongoing efforts has always been to improve audio quality and to enhance its positive impact on the human perceptual apparatus. For that reason, I believe that human perception, i.e., human listening, should be the ultimate guide in assessing the quality of audio.

So, I'm in favor of electronic and graphic audio measurement tools...and I'm equally in favor of trying out reasonably conceived tweaks. How else can you engage your human listening apparatus in the effort to improve your HT audio, if not by comparing the audio quality of competing configurations---i. e., simply trying out experimental changes to see how the results actually sound. When making such changes, we just have to be sure we can revert to the prior configuration, if necessary. Heck, this kind of experimental activity is one of the big kicks I get out of home theater-ing.


Tom

+1



Nice results. Look remarkably like mine--flat with a Midrage Compensation, and gentle high frequency roll-off. Hard to improve upon...

I remember back in the day when I first got my Audyssey Installer Kit. Everyone gave me a hard time as the Installer Kit was supposed to only be for Installers. Now that Audyssey has a proven track record of letting us enthusiasts use Audyssey Pro everyone is really beginning to see the benefits of it. Now that I have used the Installer Kit for two different AVRs (I still use my 3808 upstairs) and ran Audyssey Pro dozens of times, I feel that the $550 I paid to get it was *fair*. Again, YMMV.

I've spent the last 6 hours playing with Audyssey Pro (yes I got up early). I had done a full XT32 calibration and lived with that for a few weeks, so I had some basis of comparison. I would echo these statements. I found increased detail and directional information. Much better integration with the fronts and surrounds, a very tight bass line, and the ability to listen at a louder level (which says to me less interference and thus less annoyance).

Before I started, I ran a number of measurements using REW and then repeated after the Pro calibration. The Audyssey graphs are informative but they don't show how the subwoofer is interacting with the other speakers and the effect of crossover changes.

As far as REW shows, the Pro graph is much better -- tighter and more consistent with the target graph. I am very pleased with the results. Whether its worth the extra money to buy the calibration kit and software license for the Denon is a very individual choice, but I've certainly paid more for less in my search for audio bliss. I would think that anyone who had the bucks for the 4311 would feel it was money well spent to spring for an Audyssey tech to come over and do a pro calibration ($300-$400).

I watched the usual suspects such as Dark Knight, LOTR, Sherlock Holmes, Avatar, Up, and was impressed with the increased resolution of the sound, surround effects I hadn't noticed before, and the ability to listen at closer to reference level than before.

As to the speed, you've got to remember that the Pro calibration gathers a ton of data and then has to transmit it over the very slow (and old but reliable) RS232 interface to the receiver. I found the processing time between readings was just about right to reposition the mic. I do wish the Audyssey software had more options in displaying the graphs, such as zooming in on certain frequency ranges and the ability to overlay the graphs of speakers on each other (like REW).

I am very happy with the results and rate the Pro as a very nice upgrade to the 4311, but certainly not essential -- especially if you have a room with sonic problems that can't be fixed with software. Maybe now I can just sit back and enjoy the sound without constantly wanting to tweak it.

I have to add to this. Measurement and calibrating tools are great and I'm in favor of them and use whatever I can. However our human bodies/ears are just that...human...and they wear out over time. Or we experience illnesses or ailments which affect our hearing. I know my hearing is a little less on one side, plus I have a high frequency hearing loss above about 15kHz. Therefore after I finish my measurements (in this case using MultXT 32 on my 4311) I end up boosting up the right side levels just a little to the point that things sound "right" to my ears. YMMV but I think you need to be willing to acknowledge and adjust AV settings to what is "right" for you and not just totally rely on tools and equipment (even tho I love what my 4311 does for my system sound).