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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 97

post #2881 of 21934
11/6/10 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

link to serial codes please?

See post 1074.
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post #2882 of 21934
11/6/10 at 11:34am
^^^

thanks
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post #2883 of 21934
11/6/10 at 11:48am
I have the a-100 what do i do to prevent the dropouts, and does it make any difference if i turn of video conversion to prevent blue rain?
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post #2884 of 21934
11/6/10 at 11:49am
both are DEFECTS so it's not like there is going to be some setting to make it work right; plus, it's not like you are guaranteed to see these problems. I am sure most people have no such issues.

if you are getting "blue rain" then it is almost certainly faulty video hardware, e.g. a bad HDMI board or something. Either way you should not accept it on your $2500 AVR by changing a setting to avoid it, you should get it replaced or repaired.

the dropouts, if not a hardware issue, will hopefully be cleared up w/ a firmware update (although people should keep calling Denon to complain so they become aware of it if it is truly widespread).

are you actually experiencing either problem?
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post #2885 of 21934
11/6/10 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

both are DEFECTS so it's not like there is going to be some setting to make it work right; plus, it's not like you are guaranteed to see these problems. I am sure most people have no such issues.

if you are getting "blue rain" then it is almost certainly faulty video hardware, e.g. a bad HDMI board or something. Either way you should not accept it on your $2500 AVR by changing a setting to avoid it, you should get it replaced or repaired.

the dropouts, if not a hardware issue, will hopefully be cleared up w/ a firmware update (although people should keep calling Denon to complain so they become aware of it if it is truly widespread).

are you actually experiencing either problem?

Also. note the "Blue Rain" problem, If I read this correctly has occured with two guys with the same Plasma TV.Still seems to be a video chip problem but this could be just with that monitor. As a very non video chip expert, I'm with Batpig.... These two incidents are probably hardware failures and require new units.

I have had no issues, whatsover with nightly viewing of HTPC, Panny BD30, and Tivo watching. But hey, perhaps I am showing some luck after the 4810 problems.
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post #2886 of 21934
11/6/10 at 12:52pm
re AVR-A100

have all the HDMI inputs set up and working: have not seen any of the issues reported

I get speaker errors running Audyssey setup but I think they are operator errors!: still at it
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post #2887 of 21934
11/6/10 at 1:15pm
Well imagine my surprise when I walked into my dealer in Sweden today to get a shorter sub cable and my AVR-100 was there to pick up They hadn't called me to let me know.

Anyway, have spent the afternoon going through all sorts of stuff with it (cable tv, blu ray, ipod etc) and there is only one issue I have. I have an Oppo BDP-83SE player as my source for everything. I used both HDMI and analogs to the Onkyo I was using and it worked perfectly, I just chose BD for movies and CD for my music listening. I even sometimes used the TV for info through HDMI and the CD playback still came through the analogs. The problem with the Denon is that it doesn't want to play nicely with SACDs through analog, it stops and starts every 3 or 4 seconds? I guess it has a problem with both the HDMI and analog inputs? I wonder how the Denon DACs compare to the Oppo? I'd like to find out

Any ideas?
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post #2888 of 21934
11/6/10 at 1:21pm
....and just some other feedback. No picture issues such as blue rain. I have a Samsung LED and the picture is perfect with upscaling on cable.

I also ran Audyssey, it set my front speakers to large and decreased ALL the db levels dramatically! The fronts were reduced by 8db? Anyway, I manually set the fronts to small and set the crossover to 80. I am going to run Audyssey again tonight to see if anything is different this time.
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post #2889 of 21934
11/6/10 at 1:24pm
.....and I tried to do a firmware update and it told me I have the latest version - would this be right?
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post #2890 of 21934
11/6/10 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

both are DEFECTS so it's not like there is going to be some setting to make it work right; plus, it's not like you are guaranteed to see these problems. I am sure most people have no such issues.

if you are getting "blue rain" then it is almost certainly faulty video hardware, e.g. a bad HDMI board or something. Either way you should not accept it on your $2500 AVR by changing a setting to avoid it, you should get it replaced or repaired.

the dropouts, if not a hardware issue, will hopefully be cleared up w/ a firmware update (although people should keep calling Denon to complain so they become aware of it if it is truly widespread).

are you actually experiencing either problem?

I am experiencing both problems. Blue rain from my mede8er and xtreamer sidewinder on my samsung LED 55 inch 8000 series, and the dropouts on my Panasonic AE-2000 projector, should i return it?
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post #2891 of 21934
11/6/10 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

... the ability to set width of the wide channels was something the 4810 did not offer.

Actually it did; essentially a volume control for the Wides level.
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post #2892 of 21934
11/6/10 at 2:10pm
Just an update on my experience with the Blue Rain problem with the AVR-A100. I have the problem any time Video Convert is turned on regardless of the settings in the Video Convert section, but only if the source resolution is 720 or less. That's why I've never experienced it with a Bluray. When watching Directv, if the channel is broadcasting 1080, no problem. But if it's broadcasting in 720 or less, I get the blue rain problem ever time. It also seems to only effect the very darkest sections of the image.

I've sent an email to Denon, and I've called Abt. (Is there a phone number for Denon that I should contacting as well?) Abt is going to have a tech call me back, and depending on how that goes, I will probably be returning the unit.

I also checked firmware, and it told me that I had the latest version. While I was at it, I checked the firmware on my Panny Plasma, and it was out of date. Unfortunately, updating the firmware on the tv didn't solve anything.

All problems aside, I will say this avr sounds great. Dreading the thought of having to tear everything apart and starting all over.

One other note - I tried watching a 3D program on Directv, and had issues with this as well. The 3D Auto setting in the Panny didn't work when passing through the avr. If I change the 3D setting to Side by Side, then it works, but then when I want to go back to another channel, I need to turn Side by Side off. Not the end of the world, as I don't watch 3D that often, but still pretty frustrating. In checking the 3D section of AVS forum, this seems to be a common problem with Directv and AVRs. Not a show stopper, but thought is worth sharing in case 3D is important to you, and one of the reasons you are considering this avr.
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post #2893 of 21934
11/6/10 at 2:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat-like View Post

Anyway, have spent the afternoon going through all sorts of stuff with it (cable tv, blu ray, ipod etc) and there is only one issue I have. I have an Oppo BDP-83SE player as my source for everything. I used both HDMI and analogs to the Onkyo I was using and it worked perfectly, I just chose BD for movies and CD for my music listening. I even sometimes used the TV for info through HDMI and the CD playback still came through the analogs. The problem with the Denon is that it doesn't want to play nicely with SACDs through analog, it stops and starts every 3 or 4 seconds? I guess it has a problem with both the HDMI and analog inputs? I wonder how the Denon DACs compare to the Oppo? I'd like to find out

Any ideas?

I have the BDP-83. I can confirm that when playing SACD's using the stereo-out connection from the BDP-83 to the Denon analog CD-in jacks, the audio does not play properly. As described, it starts and stops every 1-2 seconds. Very strange. This happens with the BDP set for either PCM or DSD output. The SACD plays perfectly using the HDMI output. I can't comment on using the 7.1 Ext In connection--I don't have this hooked up.

This is clearly an issue, and I intend to report it both to Oppo and to Denon. Personally, I think the DAC in the Denon sounds very good, so you might want to listen to your SACD's using the HDMI link for the time being.

BTW, the problem does not occur for Redbook CD's, only SACD's.
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post #2894 of 21934
11/6/10 at 2:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post


Actually it did; essentially a volume control for the Wides level.

Hmm. Don't have my 4810 anymore but can't recall. I swore that screen looked different? I remember the heights but never noticed a setting for wides but my old mind could just be wrong..
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post #2895 of 21934
11/6/10 at 2:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by menks13@hotmail. View Post


I am experiencing both problems. Blue rain from my mede8er and xtreamer sidewinder on my samsung LED 55 inch 8000 series, and the dropouts on my Panasonic AE-2000 projector, should i return it?

Just ordered a 4311 for my main HT (my 3311 is in the shop getting an amp channel repaired and will be moved to my secondary HT setup). I'll keep my fingers crossed that I don't have any dropout or blue rain issues on my panny AE-2000 projector. I'll report if I do and also observed differences between the 4311 and 3311. (Using an emotiva xpa-3 for the front 3 in a 7.1 setup.)
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post #2896 of 21934
11/6/10 at 2:29pm
Has anyone had the dropout problem just using a BD player w/DVD's or BD's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

Hmm. Don't have my 4810 anymore but can't recall. I swore that screen looked different? I remember the heights but never noticed a setting for wides but my old mind could just be wrong..

Could be on a different screen now.
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post #2897 of 21934
11/6/10 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat-like View Post

The problem with the Denon is that it doesn't want to play nicely with SACDs through analog, it stops and starts every 3 or 4 seconds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have the BDP-83. I can confirm that when playing SACD's using the stereo-out connection from the BDP-83 to the Denon analog CD-in jacks, the audio does not play properly. As described, it starts and stops every 1-2 seconds. Very strange. This happens with the BDP set for either PCM or DSD output.

. . .

BTW, the problem does not occur for Redbook CD's, only SACD's.

When connected via analog, the AVR has no way of knowing the source format. It should not be able to distinguish an SACD from a CD. So, yes, this phenomenon is very strange. A possible explanation -- barring the simple explanation that, coincidentally, both of your OPPO 83s are malfunctioning -- is that the A100's ADC or preamp cannot handle the higher levels of ultrasonic noise shaping intrinsic to DSD encoding on SACD.

AJ
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post #2898 of 21934
11/6/10 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by merk54 View Post

Just an update on my experience with the Blue Rain problem with the AVR-A100. I have the problem any time Video Convert is turned on regardless of the settings in the Video Convert section, but only if the source resolution is 720 or less. That's why I've never experienced it with a Bluray. When watching Directv, if the channel is broadcasting 1080, no problem. But if it's broadcasting in 720 or less, I get the blue rain problem ever time. It also seems to only effect the very darkest sections of the image.

I've sent an email to Denon, and I've called Abt. (Is there a phone number for Denon that I should contacting as well?) Abt is going to have a tech call me back, and depending on how that goes, I will probably be returning the unit.

I also checked firmware, and it told me that I had the latest version. While I was at it, I checked the firmware on my Panny Plasma, and it was out of date. Unfortunately, updating the firmware on the tv didn't solve anything.

All problems aside, I will say this avr sounds great. Dreading the thought of having to tear everything apart and starting all over.

One other note - I tried watching a 3D program on Directv, and had issues with this as well. The 3D Auto setting in the Panny didn't work when passing through the avr. If I change the 3D setting to Side by Side, then it works, but then when I want to go back to another channel, I need to turn Side by Side off. Not the end of the world, as I don't watch 3D that often, but still pretty frustrating. In checking the 3D section of AVS forum, this seems to be a common problem with Directv and AVRs. Not a show stopper, but thought is worth sharing in case 3D is important to you, and one of the reasons you are considering this avr.

Since it is coming via your cable box, as I have mentioned countless times......set your cable box to up convert everything to 1080i or p if it can do 1080p. Although the blue rain thing sounds like a video chip problem, since it is from the cable box as source, you might be having some weird EDID issue. Then again, if you set some other source to output, say standard def material, it could well be a video chip problem if any other source than the cable box causes the problem.

As people look at problems... please mention source, input to AVR method and specific problem.

These blue rain posts are disturbing but much less so if it's coming from a cable box and you can easily fix the problem by fixing the cable box output. Hint, here.... It's the box..... Not the AVR.

Have you
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post #2899 of 21934
11/6/10 at 3:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
does anybody have the audio dropouts with anything BESIDES a cable/sat box?
Yes. All my audio is output from an HTPC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post
Could ya'all tell us the input method on these drop outs. If it's the Tivo 3 and HDMI, you can fix this with setting the Tivo to output 1080i. If it's the Tivo via optical or coax digital. That would be news and worth digging deeper on correction. The Oppo..... ditto. I imagine this is an HDMI feed.

Bottom line is all this data is hard to find solution for if we don't go like this.

Input..... Tivo 3
Dropping: Audio via optical line.
Dropping Video via RGB.

Input..... Tivo 3
Dropping: Everything via HDMI.

We can help with better info and we'd all be less confused. Heck, I'n now confused and wondering why so many people are getting drops, when how, and why?
I'm outputting video directly from the computer to the TV via old school RGB to isolate the audio.

The audio is being bitstreamed from the HTPC.
Originally had the issue with SPDIF Optical and SPDIF Digital Coax, then installed a ATI 5xxx series card and am getting the same issue using HDMI audio.

Watched the finally of Project Runway last night. It was about 3 hours long and we only had dropout once.
I'm confident this is a software issue that can be fixed with a firmware update.

Here's what the output from the HTPC looks like:

Stereo signal to 4311 by GollyJer, on Flickr

And here's what the AVR is showing:

4311 Display for stereo DD Input by GollyJer, on Flickr
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post #2900 of 21934
11/6/10 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I have the BDP-83. I can confirm that when playing SACD's using the stereo-out connection from the BDP-83 to the Denon analog CD-in jacks, the audio does not play properly. As described, it starts and stops every 1-2 seconds. Very strange. This happens with the BDP set for either PCM or DSD output. The SACD plays perfectly using the HDMI output. I can't comment on using the 7.1 Ext In connection--I don't have this hooked up.

This is clearly an issue, and I intend to report it both to Oppo and to Denon. Personally, I think the DAC in the Denon sounds very good, so you might want to listen to your SACD's using the HDMI link for the time being.

BTW, the problem does not occur for Redbook CD's, only SACD's.
I just spent an hour comparing the Denon HDMI output versus the Oppo analog with a few tracks and I gotta say that there was very little difference, in fact I enjoyed the American Beauty soundtrack more on the HDMI Why the heck did I spend the extra few hundred on the SE when I was going to spend all this money on an AVR? I guess I now have (6) RCA cables that will go into a cupboard somewhere. It must be those significantly better DACs in the AVR-100

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post
When connected via analog, the AVR has no way of knowing the source format. It should not be able to distinguish an SACD from a CD. So, yes, this phenomenon is very strange. A possible explanation -- barring the simple explanation that, coincidentally, both of your OPPO 83s are malfunctioning -- is that the A100's ADC or preamp cannot handle the higher levels of ultrasonic noise shaping intrinsic to DSD encoding on SACD.

AJ
Well it's not the Oppo, it worked perfectly with the Onkyo (which was over 4 times cheaper) . I read somewhere further back in this thread about the HDMI symbol blinking on and off trying to find the source, I noticed this was happening with analog SACD playback and I think this is the issue. As it is though, I think I will be happy with the HDMI on this unit, but it's still not right.

By the way, apart from this minor glitch I am very happy with my unit so far I have my Musical Fidelity 200 watt integrated amp connected to the Denon pre outs for my fronts and it sounds great!
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post #2901 of 21934
11/6/10 at 3:25pm
I got my Avr-A100 ... European modell .. yesterday and it's sounds very good with the new Audyssey 32.

But I also got the Audio drop and the Gui for Volyme etc disapear at the same time. Use the On/Off and it will be back again ...

Has anybody reported this bug to Denon ?

Has Denon made any response ?

I also got some problem with different satbox and with others not
The scaler do not work in Avr100 ..

I do hope for a firmware upgrade

Where do I report bugs to Denon ?

I'm supprised that Denon not noticed those bugs when they tested alla AVR-A100 before shipping them out
They say all AVR-A100 is specially tested ( They must be Joking )

Maveric
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post #2902 of 21934
11/6/10 at 3:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post
When connected via analog, the AVR has no way of knowing the source format. It should not be able to distinguish an SACD from a CD. So, yes, this phenomenon is very strange. A possible explanation -- barring the simple explanation that, coincidentally, both of your OPPO 83s are malfunctioning -- is that the A100's ADC or preamp cannot handle the higher levels of ultrasonic noise shaping intrinsic to DSD encoding on SACD.

AJ
I'm not an expert at decoding, but if the Oppo is converting the SACD to PCM, wouldn't the signal coming from the Oppo to the Denon be the same, whether it is SACD or Redbook CD?

I don't consider this a big issue anyway, since I always send the SACD DSD signal via HDMI to the Denon for decoding.
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post #2903 of 21934
11/6/10 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GollyJer
Yes. All my audio is output from an HTPC.

I'm outputting video directly from the computer to the TV via old school RGB to isolate the audio.

The audio is being bitstreamed from the HTPC.
Originally had the issue with SPDIF Optical and SPDIF Digital Coax, then installed a ATI 5xxx series card and am getting the same issue using HDMI audio.

Watched the finally of Project Runway last night. It was about 3 hours long and we only had dropout once.
I'm confident this is a software issue that can be fixed with a firmware update.

Here's what the output from the HTPC looks like:

Stereo signal to 4311 by GollyJer, on Flickr

And here's what the AVR is showing:

4311 Display for stereo DD Input by GollyJer, on Flickr
Ok, if I get this right, the problem is with the ATI 5XXX out bitstream. You are probably correct on a firmware update. Are you using the latest ATI HD audio released with CCC 10.2 and above? If you are not, try updating the ATI HD Audio first. Be aware this will crap out Arcsoft TMT 3.0 if you are using it and cause you to go source an Hotfix from Arcsoft's forum. It could be the Denon, but given the true bugginess of the ATI HD Audio, I'd bet on the PC being the problem first. I'm mot defending the 4311 here except for my experience with the HTPC.

I am using a slick fanless ATI 5770 and have listened to movies, stored Blu Ray iso's, v Folder DVD's, and stereo MP3s and Flac files with no drops. admittedly though, only about an hour of music. Hope this helps as we have similar systems. I use WMC and WM Player though on a very clean install. No additional anything on this PC except AnyDVD HD, My Movies, Arcsoft TMT 3.0'HD Homerun, WMC, and a Win 7 64 bit OS. I have installed other stuff in the past and had to do total rebuilds after audio file corruption problems - too many to list.
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post #2904 of 21934
11/6/10 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post
Since it is coming via your cable box, as I have mentioned countless times......
These blue rain posts are disturbing but much less so if it's coming from a cable box and you can easily fix the problem by fixing the cable box output. Hint, here.... It's the box..... Not the AVR.
This is only true if there was a problem with the previous HDMI AVR. Otherwise the new, broken bit, is the problem.

I do agree that a careful description of the problem will help Denon fix it.
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post #2905 of 21934
11/6/10 at 3:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I'm not an expert at decoding, but if the Oppo is converting the SACD to PCM, wouldn't the signal coming from the Oppo to the Denon be the same, whether it is SACD or Redbook CD?
One hopes not. Or did you mean analog instead of PCM (digital)?
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post #2906 of 21934
11/6/10 at 4:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I'm not an expert at decoding, but if the Oppo is converting the SACD to PCM, wouldn't the signal coming from the Oppo to the Denon be the same, whether it is SACD or Redbook CD?
Not quite. CD is always 44.1 kHz PCM. The OPPO 83 decimates DSD to PCM w/ an 88.2 kHz sampling rate.

AJ
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post #2907 of 21934
11/6/10 at 4:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
One hopes not. Or did you mean analog instead of PCM (digital)?
OK, let me try again. The Oppo is doing all the DA conversion and sending an analog signal to the Denon on the Stereo out jacks. Why would this signal be any different for SACD's or Redbook CD's--isn't the Denon seeing a simple analog signal in both cases? If yes, why would the Denon have an issue when a SACD is played?

My confusion was with the statement "...is that the A100's ADC or preamp cannot handle the higher levels of ultrasonic noise shaping intrinsic to DSD encoding on SACD." What does this mean?
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post #2908 of 21934
11/6/10 at 4:10pm
Turn on Speaker/Audyssey set up. If your speakers ping, you are ok.

Under the Monitor Output 1, make sure the setting is "audio plays through receiver", not audio plays through TV.
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post #2909 of 21934
11/6/10 at 4:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biship View Post
help!
disclaimer: total newbie

replaced a dsp-a1 with a avs-a100 & emotiva xpa-5.

ive wired the speakers to the amp
connected the amp to the pre-outs on the a100
connected the 12v trigger

selected pre-amp & none under speaker setup on the a100.

connected cable box to the a100 (hdmi), connected hdmi out to tv.
i can see the picture, but cant hear anything on any speaker
amp turns on when the a100 does.

errr what have i missed? theres no audio.
Clarification of my previous post:

Ping your speakers on manual set up...you will hear them regardless of your HDMI set up.

Then go to:

Manual Setup > HDMI Setup > HDMI Audio Out >
set to AMP not TV. I think TV is the default.
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post #2910 of 21934
11/6/10 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
OK, let me try again. The Oppo is doing all the DA conversion and sending an analog signal to the Denon on the Stereo out jacks. Why would this signal be any different for SACD's or Redbook CD's--isn't the Denon seeing a simple analog signal in both cases? If yes, why would the Denon have an issue when a SACD is played?

My confusion was with the statement "...is that the A100's ADC or preamp cannot handle the higher levels of ultrasonic noise shaping intrinsic to DSD encoding on SACD." What does this mean?
I'm with you, surely analog is analog? It's like the Denon somehow senses the DSD and wants it to go via HDMI but I'm not sure how?
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK]