The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 12

Hi,


... and you forgot to mention that the 4311 is also Audyssey "Installer ready", so it's even more unique on the market today!

Hugo

If you are going to spring for the 4311CI, would it kill you to get an Onkyo SP506 universal DVD player or better yet an OPPO 80 universal BD player or possibly best yet a Sony S570 3-D BD player w/ Wi-Fi? For a very reasonable $200-300, any of those three can output SACD &/or DVD-A via HDMI. And you avoid the kludge of multichannel analog connections.


Exactly. If you want to redigitize an SACD analog out to apply digital room correction, why bother w/ SACD in the first place?

AJ

Again. Components higher up the proverbial food chain offer a substantial lot of settings and have owners who have their systems/rooms configured in such a way that they simply want to output to a PRE/PRO. Now granted some of those may not be considering this particular component, but you can be sure some will.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that this is the aim of a large number of users, just that it's an inclusion in a $2k device that some may be able to appreciate.

James

I didn't realize it was necessary (or even appropriate) to explain our personal finances and purchasing decisions in such a thread. I'm amazed that this has evoked so many responses. Do I have enough money in the bank to pay for a 4311 + a new DVD player? Yes, I do. Am I in a financial position to be able to indiscriminately spend $200-300 to upgrade an infrequently used component? No, I'm afraid my reality requires me to prioritize what I can and can't spend money on. Though I am envious of those not burdened with such concerns. Replacing a working component to incrementally improve the sound quality of an occasionally used, small collection of music with little to no hope of growing with future content, doesn't make the cut. There are COUNTLESS things in my life that are at a higher priority level than improving the sound of my DVD-As.

FWIW, I'm not aware of any Sony player that has ever supported DVD-A, but I could be mistaken.

Then why complain about a limitation that pretty much every receiver since 5.1 inputs showed up has had?

Interesting. FWIW, under the "Detailed Specifications" tab on Denon's product page the 4311ci is listed to have "AKM Semiconductor 24-bit/192-kHz AK4358B" DACs. It also lists AL24+ processing for all channels just a few spots above. Perhaps the listing for the A100 at Crutchfield is not completely correct?

I don't know anything about the AK4358B and how it may or may not compare to the previously mentioned Burr-Brown DACs, but while on the subject, I am happy to note that the 4311ci manual explicitly confirms that a direct DSD to analog conversion is performed when in the proper (direct) mode. Arguments about DSD vs. PCM aside, that will make a lot of the SACD followers/DSD purists happy.

I for one am pleased to see Denon continue to support direct DSD processing not to mention clearly define its support in the product literature. In the past it has been challenging to find out if certain AVRs truly support direct DSD-to-analog. Personally, it will be the first opportunity I've had to see if I can tell any difference between DSD and PCM. Regardless of the arguments for or against the existence of such differences, I'm excited that I'll actually be able to find out for myself and play with it.

Had to get my pro-SACD plug in there somewhere. Thanks again Denon!
Josh

I think money is not an off topic as often, that is one of the biggest factors....

Your logic seems sound to me. I don't think other posters were really addressing the money thing though, more why buy the thing at all of you were intent on going analog in? You explained it's more of a rare type need and more a want; so nuff said.

Personally, I will probably never buy a Blu Ray/Stand Alone device again. I have a PC/WHS solution for most content with a BR player in the PC. All I care about is perfect PC to Denon EDID control and a GPU that can send lossless Audio HD Formats from Video sources (DTS Master, Dolby Tru HD) I use my PC to up process most DVD content and the old massively multiple processor GPU does a great job. I stream most of my music and am perfectly happy with compressed audio formats in to the home audio system. To each his own and as an observer here, I don't think anyone intended to offend, just curious of the thought process.

exactly, I don't think it's a big deal, and I don't think anyone intended any affront in terms of finances.

the point is that this feature (A>D conversion of multich analog inputs) is pretty much nonexistent in any receiver, and of such limited utility, that it seems an unreasonable thing to complain about...

no big deal we can move on....

Yes, I've been going the same route, though ripping my collection is taking MUCH longer than I would have ever hoped. I'm not even 1/4 the way through. And although I didn't initially mention it because I didn't think it was really relevant to the point I was making, I believe DVD-A can be ripped too, I just haven't had the time to investigate it. That would leave SACD, which on it's own isn't an issue for me (because I can actually play them on my older gen PS3). 3D is what is forcing me to upgrade my perfectly good existing AVR, and I refuse to upgrade it JUST to get a newer HDMI version. The 4311 is about the only option that I can upgrade to and feel like I'm actually getting a decent number of new things compared to where I already am. Interestingly enough, if I were 100% PC, I wouldn't need the upgrade. I can do 3D Blu-ray through my HTPC now. It's DirecTV and PS3 games that are giving me headaches.

Not offended at all. Just amazed at how many responses immediately came back that seem to be oblivious to the fact that everyone's situation is different (not just as far as finances and priorities, but even the various setups we all have, and the time we have available to tinker with changing it).

DVDFab Decrypter can do it. Then you can playback the ISO files in Foobar 2000 after you install the plugin (or convert to multichannel FLAC).

See this thread.

Thanks, yes, I thought I had read in the past that it could. It's just yet another one of those projects that I haven't had a chance to get around to.

I am kind of surprised by the lack of response to the above comments. Given how positive this thread seems to be on the 4311, I have been tentatively planning on upgrading my old Yamaha to the 4311 to run 5.1 M&K 4 ohm speaker system. (Waiting for some pro test publications first to ensure that the 4 ohm speakers wont be a problem, especially if i add some H + W speakers which i am tempted to do). My question for you Denon experts is: ARE WIWAVELENGTH'S COMMENTS ABOVE ACCURATE/FAIR AND IF SO DO THOSE "MISSING" FEATURES REALLY MATTER?

Or (3) none of the above. See my post explaining this http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=322 .

Not trying to start any argument about analog versus HDMI audio but it's more important to me to correct for room acoustic effects. Currently I'm doing this as I explained in my post. When I measured my room originally I had multiple peaks and valleys as much as 10db different from one another and spanning a whole octave. To me that's a more audible negative to my ears (and a readily measurable one) than some loss I might get from various DAC's in my system.

I was considering the 4311 as a way to perhaps compare what I have to what the 4311's Audyssey could do for me and based on what I both hear and can measure go with one of the three approaches I mentioned. If the HDMI/Audyssey only approach worked to my satisfaction I could then streamline my system by going fully HDMI and removing the Behringer EQ's as well as the Zektor switcher and a LOT of cables.

It looks like it's going to be an either/or thing for me tho and sinking this kind of money into this AVR and perhaps deciding that Denon's Audyssey set up doesn't perform as well as my current analog set up would be disappointing to say the least. How many Denon authorized vendors allow for returns due to dissatisfaction with the product? Anyone?

They likely all do ... you just have to pay a 15-25% (varies by vendor) restocking fee.

I'm not a Denon expert (my last 5 or so AVR purchases have all been Onkyos). But I think his comments are fair. A processor on that level should have the higher grade DACs. It's probably a a small $$ difference at cost anyway. My current AVR has THX Ultra2, and I never use those modes. But if I were buying a $2k+ pre/pro, I would probably expect it. Separate L/R subs... again, should be relatively trivial. They're already separate in the output stage (EQ, etc.), so separate L/R bass management capability should certainly be added at this level. Balanced outputs are meaningless to me, but if I had nice amps they wouldn't be. They're on my cheap BFD, they should be on a $2k+ pre/pro.

I can't imagine that Denon couldn't easily add these things for the cost savings of removing the amps. Though perhaps it's a quantity of scale thing. With the significant acceleration of obsolescence that the digital age has caused, it seems like pre/pro and separate amps would become more attractive. But then when you compare pre/pros with AVRs, it seems like amps don't cost anything.

Well, I did respond to the negative junk.... Here goes again.

THX comments. Don't care. Many of these features are redundant to Auddysey. It's only a marketing certification.
DAC's.... pretty meaningless as well. Beyond my capacity to hear the difference.
Balanced outputs. Really, for a 2 ft to 4ft run? This is the deal breaker?
Higher current amp. Well, there is a lot of info out about Onkyo's just using a current/power limiting device. It does look though that Denon has changed the 4311 to handle 4 ohm speakers. So, there is no longer an advantage here to the Onkyo. Also, did the naysayer in question not notice the pre-out over ride? Don't see that on the Onkyo receivers.
2 sub outs. Heck, you get the full meal EQ deal with the 4311. You even get the Audyssey Sub EQ feature baked in. What does it not have here regarding a sub(s) you want?

As far as Onkyo goes, go ahead and buy it if you want. I want my H + W. In fact, I have enjoyed it and can recommend the experience. Thus, Denon.

Seattle,

After following your posts and reviews of the 4810 in that thread, I am looking forward to your comments on the 4311 experience. I am very curious to see if their will be any noticable difference with the new XT 32 processing.

SeattleHTguy, I've followed your journey on the 4810 thread... I don't know if I should congradulate ya, or send a bottle with a sympathy note! Are you able to keep the 4810 till the 4311 arrives? I know many here would be thrilled to hear your thoughts on a comparision of the two. Please, keep us posted, thanks for all the valuable input on the 4810, looking forward to more of the same with the 4311!

Happy to comment. But.... My 4810 is on life support. No Audyssey functionality left, I must power off and on to get the video to work and right now the best I can get is 7.2 PLIIx. Denon is fully crediting the unit and the charge has gone through.

IMHO and experience, it's the damn network card that was severely design flawed. I am actually looking forward to the lack of wireless connectivity as Denons methodology here was terrible. In the 4810 thread you'll note many people going over how you must cycle the power sometimes to switch from wired to wireless or the other way around.

I will give my opinion on the EQ32 as well as the sub EQ functionality. Just my first thought is that the enhanced Audyssey power EQ capabilities will probably not be that noticeable. It was pretty good already. I just don't think my ears will be golden enough to tell. My experience with the network card was bad but did not jade me to the other capabilities. I'll also listen to if the DAC changes are inferior as well. Don't hold your breath though as again, I just don't think I'm that good. As far as amp section goes, I'm not much help here as I use external amps mostly.

Crutchfield has a 60 day return that is excellent as long as everything is returned as it was sent. they will charge a restocking fee if you leave something out. I agree with alot of everone's concerns about coughing up 2000-2500.00 for either the 4311 or A100. It will probibly be my last amp and if I knew the A100 was the best deal for the cash it would be a done deal. BP JD or anyone can tell me if the 16 channel DAC / bur brown is in the 4311? Don't recall seeing it.

Confirmed. As both the 4311CI and the A100 are part of Crutchfield's "Signature Series" their usual 30 day return is extended to 60 days. Returning the AVR not selected would only involve a $7 return shipping fee. Crutchfield will then issue a full refund (less the $7 shipping fee). You'll likely be paying full MSRP though to get that benefit.


According to Denon's spec sheets, the 4311 and 3311 both use the same 8 channel DACs (AKM AK4358) vice the Burr Brown DACs in the A100.

The manual illustration says Japan.


Again just going by the manual but there are two SW outs. XLR -- I'd expect that on a pure pre/pro of a certain ilk but not so much on a hybrid.

Theoretically then, it would be safe to assume (considering the $500 price premium) that the DACs in the 4311 are of inferior quality to the A100 DACs, which are already of theoretically inferior quality to "higher-end" Burr-Brown DACs. Again, this is subject to the ability of one to hear the difference, but perhaps, if the specifications are accurate, this is yet another good reason to go for the A100?

I guess I then see AJ's point about the perceived cost-cutting/penny-pinching, all "golden ear" requirements aside.

Josh

Thx JD as crazy as it sounds I bought the 3311 and then wanted to upgrade to the 4311 at the end of my 60 days I called in and talked to Bryce at Crutchfield and they sent me an ARR for UPS that added another month. I sent it back last Friday at NO CHARGE including shipping and pre-ordered the 4311 late last night. Well to my suprise the A100 went on pre-order this morning and Bryce just called me back and pre-ordered the A100 for. Yes with all the exchanges there is no discount (MSRP)! But then he told me that sometimes after the launch 30-60 days prices have been known to drop which he said they would give me the discount at that time. So I am no longer wondering which is best or what is what I bought the A100 and I'm NOT looking back. Wish me the best and I want to thank all of you who take the time to research the ins and outs of Denon. I'll keep you posted. Bob

I was so close to pulling the trigger on a A100 today.. I know MSRP will pretty much stand on that model.

If Onkyo/Integra has sold several times more pre/pros over the past three years than has any other competitor, then that is hegemony.


No, the 4311CI does not process L/R sub outputs. The dual sub outs are separately EQ'd but monophonic.

AJ

Ruh Roh!

On a more positive note my dealer reports that Denon has given them an end of the month ship date.

I typed my post rather quickly and wrote "&" when I intended "&/or." I have gone back and edited my post.

Otherwise, I stand by my assertion. If you care enough to play SACDs &/or DVD-As and value digital room correction, then spend the nominal sum to pick up a player that can output DSD or PCM via HDMI.

AJ

The problem is that your current set up is not truly analog. Rather, it is A/D/A as it passes through your digital EQs. HDMI & Audyssey could eliminate those redundant conversions.

AJ

You're correct of course. I was really just using "analog" in that part of the description for simplicity. But elimination of the extra conversions as well as less equipment and cables would be a plus.