The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 15

agreed, a lot of people seem to be bamboozled by brand names when it comes to DAC's...

All great points. I use an HDMI switch simply to save the cable clutter in my system.

3D: could care less
Networking: don't care much as all my other devices have it so why does my AVR need it too? (ATV, bluray, etc)
PC Streaming: don't care (everything lives in ATV or streams from something else)
ipod: don't care (have ATV)
DTSHD/Dolby HD: I kinda care but can't tell the difference between HD tracks and non HD. Tried to discern the difference in a 25k system and came up with no difference at all. Movies imo do not benefit from the higher resolution but stereo music on the other hand definitely would like SACD, DVDA and HDCD.

My point about the DACs is they use the same DACs in the 4810 as they do my older and much farther down the line 3803. However they use the cheaper DACs in the 4311 which retails at a whopping $2000. I guess I have in a way answered my own questions. Either stay put or go with separates if I want a true upgrade. I'm also pretty sure the power supplies in my 3803 are better than the 4311 as well. Why? Because the 4311 packs all kinds of additional features which leaves no room for quality power, quality DACs, etc...

If you can't hear a difference between an HD and non-HD track, differences in DAC and power supply should be the least of your concerns....

So that brings us back to my original point.. Why upgrade my 3803 to a 4311 or even a 3311 with zero sound quality improvement? The video processing capabilities are a joke as well. I know for a fact separates sound superior to my 3803 but that comes with budget concerns.

Spend around 1500 to get the exact same sound with some extra goodies which I don't care about and to be honest I don't know why everyone puts those features so high on a pedestal.

To a certain degree I almost wish with my 3803 would croak or start having issues to give me an excuse to buy another Denon that sounds and performs exactly the same as what I have. Unfortunately it has never once even missed a single beat. Another caveat of these new feature packed AVRs is they are prone to bugs, issues and noise from additional components (wifi).

Yeah, I agree with you on this! It seems he is fixated on the DAC's used but if he can't tell the difference between the lossy codecs and the lossless ones.....

why are you assuming this? because the DAC's don't have a fancy brand name?

unless you have a really nice acoustically treated room and listen really loud (near reference) at at all times, you would probably experience a great deal of SQ improvement from the sophisticated room correction of MultEQ XT 32 and the loudness compensation of Dynamic EQ. And that doesn't even mention the possibility for expanding to 9 or 11 speaker channels.

you are correct in a sense, in that most of the improvements are in new FEATURES, and that in the end a modern unit with oodles of digital doodads is likely to be less reliable than your workhorse 3803, which came out before the craze for "all in one box" technology in receivers really took hold... the 3803 doesn't have a lot of stuff to break, so it will probably chug along for years to come. And the amp section is probably pretty similar.

So if you are happy with the current sound quality, and don't desire the new features, maybe adding external amps or upgrading subwoofers or adding acoustic treatments or something else might provide enough pleasing improvements to keep you happy. But your conclusion that sound quality is "exactly the same" in the new units is simply false!

I would love to blind test everyone who "thinks" they can tell a difference. My only reservation is there might be a noticeable difference in a dedicated theater setup properly with capable equipment. Living room setups like mine? Not gonna happen.

I will give you Room Correction which my setup could definitely use. Have no room for additional channels. Maybe the 3311 "does" make sense for me?? I "HATE" the fact that it weighs 10 full pounds less than my 3803 though and has 15 more watts/channel??? Maybe it doesn't sound any "worse" than my 3803 but man that would be an issue I would have to contend with mentally!

I agree with you! But the exact logic applies to your obsession with DAC's


if you aren't going to use some of the extra features of the 4311, I would definitely agree that a 3311 + power amp setup would probably be more sensible. especially since it seems you like power!


you can put some lead weight on the chassis if it makes you feel better! or maybe just add a beefy external amp....


the "mental" part is huge a lot of this stuff is marketing / psychology

Yes it does. The problem is how can I justify spending $2000 for an AVR with weaker components regardless of what my ears think?? I know the Burr Browns are better or else they wouldn't be in the 4810. The 4311 shares the same DACs as the 3311 and on down the line... Can I tell a difference between the two?? Most likely not but dammit I sure would like to know I got what I paid for so I don't have to "think" about it! The 3311 is looking more and more like the most logical choice in this dilemma with possibly adding an external amp later.

Thanks for the debate everyone! I hope nobody takes any of my whining out of context. I love this stuff and appreciate everyone's opinion.

I don't have enough technical knowledge to answer the questions about amplifier design, but overall I am still pretty skeptical of the idea that better amps can improve sound quality at moderate volumes, unless you have exceptionally tough-to-drive speakers. The improvement will likely be more in the ability to crank it up as loud as you want and have the system remain "effortless"... and I have a strong feeling that the further improvements reported at moderate volumes are largely placebo induce. But this is a contentious topic...


On the OSD, you can actually see them in youtube videos if you want to check out the look / feel:

23xx / 33xx "basic" GUI: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnoANxXLOgQ
43xx "advanced" GUI: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbfXI...eature=related

you may want to MUTE the 4310 video review though because the narrator is a travesty!

in considering 3311 vs 4311, the major feature gains are:

1) the ability to expand beyond 7 channels
2) MultEQ XT 32 (versus regular XT)
3) more sophisticated handling of dual subwoofers (SubEQ HT)
4) fancier GUI
5) better amps / build (and 4-ohm "stable")
6) a varied assortment of extra input options and audiophile goodies, like AL24+ on all channels instead of just FL/FR, HDCD / SACD decoding, an extra HDMI input, an extra component video input, multich analog inputs, DenonLink4 (only relevant if you want to buy a matching high-end Denon universal player), etc.

in terms of audio processing, networking features, 3-zones, video processing, etc. they are exactly the same. If power is your main concern, and expanding beyond 7 channels isn't likely, then the 3311 + external amp makes a lot of sense.

Pjonkeer....

I have a solution to your weight concern.... strap a 15 lb traveling Elf on top. Weight means nothing, except for possibly a power supply and heat sinks. Modern amps are often more efficient. Now I like big fat overbuilt amps with all the weight but honestly you can't judge the 3803 vs the 4311 on weight, that's silly. As also noted room EQ is "da bomb" and can improve poor rooms just as well as perfect theaters.

Having said all this. If you have pre convinced yourself none of the new features mean anything to you. You are making the right call for you... I think I can say for everyone here, be happy with what you got. Drilling down to two inconsequential things, weight and a single type/brand of DAC parts is not though a good reason to say no to an upgrade. This type of thought is classic behavioral psychology stuff.

Since the banter has gone off track....anyone actually got an ETA on either model?

Agreed. Whether or not DAC differences are audible, the apologists in this thread should be ashamed for justifying use of a penny pincher DAC in a $2000 AVR. But hold your horses before jumping to conclusions about the 4311CI.

Asahi Kasei Microdevices (AKM) does make stereo DACs as good as those of Burr Brown, Wolfson, et al. But the AKM AK4358 is an 8 channel monolithic multichannel DAC. And multichannel DACs are almost invariably cost cutting parts. So, the AK4358 does look miserly compared to the multiple stereo Burr Brown PCM1791As in previous Denon AVRs (e.g. 4810CI, 4310CI, 4308CI, 3808CI), and it looks even worse compared to the multiple premium 32 bit stereo DACs in $2000 AVRs from Onkyo/Integra & Pioneer.

However, all of the hand wringing may be for naught. The 4311CI may not use the AK4358. The "Detailed Specifications" pages indicate so. But Denon's posted specs are notoriously inaccurate. And the math for an 8 channel DAC in a ≥13 channel pre amp section does not compute. Additionally, at least one other source, Crutchfield, indicates that the 4311CI's anniversary sibling, the A100, uses 16 PCM1791As. So, let us wait & see how this shakes out.

AJ

See my previous post:

Any of the newer midrange denon's will outsmart and outsound your old 3803. I owned a 5803 and would trade it in for a model with the newer processing options any day. The only possible weakpoint could be the amps and thats a easy fix.

A weaker package it simple isn't, modern models are way better value then the old ones.

Daniel.

If the features of the new receivers aren't major points for you, then I would say stick with what is working well for you. Your points are valid, you should listen to yourself.


I certainly understand what you are saying. People here will tell you higher end DACs don't matter, extra weight doesn't matter, etc. But I can guarantee you that every one of them would pick the heavier unit with the better DACs, all other things (including price) being the same. No, more weight and better DACs doesn't necessarily equate to a discernible difference in sound quality, but it does imply a higher quality unit overall. It's those types of differences that contribute to the manufacturers charging relatively large increases for the "next model up". Whether or not those features produce tangible improvements is debatable, but it's certainly understandable to not want to take a step backwards when replacing a current product with a more expensive one. I know, I'm in the same boat: my current unit weighs a ton, and has the "better" DACs), and it cost 2/3 of what I'll have to pay for the 4311. Mine is one of the few that actually maintains most of it's power output during an all channels driven scenario, and I'm sure the beefy (heavy) power supply is why.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't just a tiny bit concerned about replacing my unit with one that weighs less, appears to have lower grade components, and has a lower total power rating. Do I really think I'll notice? Probably not, but it still irks me that I'm paying a premium for less. But that seems to be the trend these days. Onkyos, Denons, and probably others, are doing more, but they appear to be going down a notch in overall robustness / quality.

But for me, I have no choice: I DO care about 3D, so I have to upgrade. And IF I'm going to have to upgrade, I want it to FEEL like I'm getting an upgrade: I could get a cheaper 1.4 receiver, but then I'll be getting a lower quality unit that does nothing extra for me beyond having a newer revision HDMI chip. That just doesn't feel like an upgrade to me. So at least with the 4311, I get 11.2, better Audyssey, and maybe some other things that will make me feel better about the money spent.

But for you, if you don't really need anything the 4311 offers, then just wait! We seem to be forced in to upgrading these things much more often than we really want. Something WILL come along that you really do want to upgrade for, and if that happens next year, or the year after, you'll be kicking yourself for upgrading "too early".

I also have a 3803 that has been an excellent and reliable companion. But, time has flown by and later this fall I'll be choosing between the usual suspects: 4311, 5008, A3000, SC-37 and moving the trusty 3803 upstairs to the bedroom.

Having wired the house with CAT6a, High-Speed HDMI with ethernet and audio return (gone fishing has a new definition), and moved into Blu-ray it's time for a change.

I know of one dealer who will carry all of them - ABT in Chicago - so I'll be able to audition them during a visit. Between what I see and hear and what I read on this forum I'll have the information I need to choose. I hope whichever option is as problem-free as the 3803.

You guys want weight and separates. Go look at the Emotiva Pro line coming out. Wow!!! Won't be doing more than 7 channels. Or just get the 3311 and grab the soon to be released XPR-7. The XPR won't be as purty-lookin as the Pro Amp, but you all solve the weight quandary everyone is agonizing over.

IMHO none of the modern receivers can provide the kind of power an insanely overbuilt separate amp can. Boy, it sure would be nice if some manufacturer would build a receiver that can defeat it's potentially under powered amp section. :-) Doooohhhh, I snuck in another feature.

When do we expect some form of confirmation on this? I thought the 4311 was already shipping. How exactly will it be confirmed since we don't trust the Denon docs?

Abt is a great store! Let me know how it goes.

Denon may revise the specs page. Also, if Audioholics does a review of the 4311CI, Gene usually cracks open the AVR for a visual inspection. Regardless, in the coming weeks, the actual DAC configuration will come to light.

AJ

I'm also waiting for the release... I thought I read it was going to be released on 9/15. Anybody heard any rumors recently?

Good point,

I think the improvement to the XT32 platform and SubEQHT will yield far more appreciable results than the quality of DACs anyways.

You've got to be joking...

Emotiva may make good amps, but their pre-pro's are buggy to say the least. Further, the way they're treating their customers over their pre-pro incompetence doesn't make me want to run out and do business with them.

I like the amps but also would not buy the Pre.... Still the new Pro line looks beautiful. I'd think those blue lit bars along with the Denon color scheme would look great in a system . Shut down the internals on the 4311 and go to town. The only issue is moving it.

Probably true. But if you were shopping similarly priced models from Acura, Lexus, and BMW and discovered that the Acura model uses cheaper plastic parts while the current Lexus & BMW models and the previous year's Acura model use premium metal parts, then you would question the commitment to build quality of the current Acura model -- even if you are told that the differences between plastic & metal are negligible.

You buy a higher end car for higher end build quality. The same should hold true for higher end AVRs.

AJ

You misread my post.

A couple days ago I said end of month. Specifically my dealer said Denon told them the 27th.

WiWavelength Ok to your argument, I think the Onkyo's have the dang ugliest cheapest fronts of practically any receiver out there. At any price point. The Pioneers and Denons look, feel and just appear far more attractive to me. I see money spent here that Onkyo does not even begin to meet. OMG what plastic button part did they use for power? It must be the YijobaXT92 when Denon uses the far superior YijobaXT92+. Onkyo is so lame... What dime store engineer designed that front anyway? See we can all find fault, subjective or otherwise, if we want.

None of this is very logical and totally subjective but here is where we strongly differ. You think this DAC difference is some huge affront to the quality of Denon. I think the fact Onkyo chooses not even to attempt true 11.2 is a huge miss and cost saver on Onkyo's part at the same or greater price point than the 4311's supposed choice of DAC's. My $1k pair of ceiling Heights sure look like value hooked up to air. To me, who wants the 11.2, the Onkyo is the Kia and the Denon is the Lexus, you don't agree. But, I don't spend time at the Official Onkyo thread bashing the cheap little blue dot front panel of the Onkyo's or the total, utter, lack of 11 channel H + W capability.

I really do have a bias against Onkyo's look and feel that I don't even attempt to defend. Oh, and I drive an Infinit M45x, not because it has the same exact wood trim of a Mercedes S550 but I like the value compromise that my Infiniti offers, and yes, it has a plastic engine cover to boot. It also has a better service record and many other superior features. Most importantly, it was my value equation purchase and my needs and wants.

I've mentioned the fact that the Onkyo features do not work for me and yet it's DAC, DAC, DAC. I am waiting to see when these things ship. That's it, why care about a receiver you'll never buy? I also find it a bit strange to put so much bad juju out about something you'll never own. What's the point? It's just bad kharma.

I FRIKKIN' HATE THIS FORUM!!!!
I was all set to go with the 3311 and be happy and now that I have read all of this cool stuff about the 4311, I can no longer be content with the 3311. So, I just place my pre-order for my 4311 and wait...
Damn it..
Chris

Any idea who might be doing a review of the 4311CI soon?