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The "Official" Denon AVR-4311CI/AVR-A100 thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 3

post #61 of 23136
So pandora doesn't have like radio stations like vtuner?
Would it be possible to use vtuner via the denon or something on my ht? I don't like pandora how you already have to know bands names and stuff.
post #62 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghstudio View Post

I happened on a 4310 today at bestbuy and put my hand on top of it to see how much heat it generates. The top was very warm....and it was not playing anything, so amps were at idle.

Hopefully the 4311 will run much cooler with the amps turned off. It's just about the only thing I'm worried about on the 4311. The UMC-1 and my prior Lexicon ran very cool as does my class D amp. The hottest part of my system is the 52" LCD HDTV.

If I had to guess I would think the 4311 would be warmer because they are adding 2 amps to it. I am sure once you turn off the amps it will reduce the temperature. It is gonna be a lot to expect from a receiver to have 9 x 140 watts and not be warm to the touch. Just make sure your cabinet has good air flow.
post #63 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by buggs1a View Post

So pandora doesn't have like radio stations like vtuner?
Would it be possible to use vtuner via the denon or something on my ht? I don't like pandora how you already have to know bands names and stuff.

well, that's what Pandora is! it's kinda the whole point of the thing

sounds like you just want to listen to internet radio....
post #64 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldiablos View Post

If I had to guess I would think the 4311 would be warmer because they are adding 2 amps to it. I am sure once you turn off the amps it will reduce the temperature. It is gonna be a lot to expect from a receiver to have 9 x 140 watts and not be warm to the touch. Just make sure your cabinet has good air flow.

a lot of the heat is also generated by the digital processing boards (video chips, HDMI board) so I highly doubt it will be totally cool even in pre-amp mode.

regardless, if it's a bit warm when it's on, who cares? I mean, really? it's one thing if it's boiling hot, but it's basically normal for electronics to run slightly warm.
post #65 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

As far as I know, the three sub outs on the 4810CI are nothing more than one sub out in triplicate (i.e. same signal, three outputs). The dual sub outs on the 4311CI/A100 can be, at the very least, independently time aligned. They may also offer separate L/R output, separate EQ, and/or separate crossovers.

I highly, highly doubt the subs will have separate L/R stereo output. Chris (audyssey) has already stated that it will work like the external Sub EQ, pinging each sub separately (pre-Audyssey) to time/level align, and then pinging them as a summed unit during the actual Audyssey run at the various positions for EQ'ing.

It also will not have "separate crossovers" as this is nonsensical with the way Denon bass management works. The crossover is set on the SPEAKER, not the subwoofers; there is no "subwoofer crossover". If, say, you set your Front L/R speakers at a 60Hz, crossover, everything below that will go to the mono subwoofer channel.

So, you will get (1) independent time alignment (distance/delay setting), (2) independent level alignment (volume), and then (3) summed EQ filtering. This is what Audyssey's research indicates is the best method and it is the way their external Sub EQ works by default...
post #66 of 23136
Yeah I don't like how the pandora I know you have to know the bands name first. I don't know many as I am only interested in a handful of bands. I know I do want to find more though.

I bought the onkyo 807 several months ago. The ui was buggy and it didn't work when you use re remote in the Internet radio area. Only sometimes would it register you wanna go down or up etc. So I took it back for refund.

It had something that gave me tons of radio like stations. It grouped by state or category like genre or something. I found an oldies station that was drama not music. Like umm I'm not sure what it's called where they just talk but it's like a movie only for radio. It was a neat station to listen to. I want this in my avr or at least a way to listen through my avr/ht.
post #67 of 23136
Quote:


Yeah I don't like how the pandora I know you have to know the bands name first. I don't know many as I am only interested in a handful of bands. I know I do want to find more though.

this is actually the point of Pandora -- you start with what you KNOW you like, and then it suggests other songs / bands that are considered to be "similar" according to the research of the Music Genome project.

So, if you only know a few bands you like, you start from there and then let Pandora make "suggestions" on similar stuff that you might also like. So, just start with one band that you love.... use the thumbs up/down (like/dislike) to refine your preferences... it's pretty cool and works very well you may even discover new bands that you really like that you may never have heard of!
post #68 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

It also will not have "separate crossovers" as this is nonsensical with the way Denon bass management works. The crossover is set on the SPEAKER, not the subwoofers; there is no "subwoofer crossover".

In my particular setup, what would be NICE would be to have separate LFE "crossovers", just so I could limit the upper range out of the 2nd output. But I realize that's wishful thinking. But the more realisitc wish I have is being able to EQ with just one sub, then enable the 2nd one without EQ'ing it.
post #69 of 23136
Quote:


what would be NICE would be to have separate LFE "crossovers", just so I could limit the upper range out of the 2nd output.

there is really not much LFE content between 80-120Hz so IMHO it's not really a "problem" in real world use.

Quote:


But the more realisitc wish I have is being able to EQ with just one sub, then enable the 2nd one without EQ'ing it.

why the heck would you want that??
post #70 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

why the heck would you want that??

I'd use the 2nd output for my tactile transducers. There's no sense in applying the sub's EQ curve to them, since its response is completely unrelated to the shakers, and there's no way to EQ them automatically. That's why a separate LFE setting would be nice... I prefer to have them rolled off above 20hz.
post #71 of 23136
ahhh, the old butt-shakers I'm with you now!

Audyssey will not apply any EQ filters below the measured roll-off of the subwoofer, so it probably will not be doing any EQ'ing in the "butt shaker region". For example, if your regular sub's -3dB point is measured to be 27Hz, Audyssey will taper off the correction below that point (assuming the transducers are not connected during the Audyssey measurements), so if the butt-shakers are only playing sub-20Hz, no correction will be applied.

You do not get the benefit of a separate LPF for the transducers, but don't they kind of roll off naturally above a certain point?
post #72 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

You do not get the benefit of a separate LPF for the transducers, but don't they kind of roll off naturally above a certain point?

Well, this is probably more detail than necessary for this thread, but just to justify my desires: they don't roll off enough for my taste. I prefer to limit them to the infrasonics, as that just seems more natural to me. Having the room vibrate just because the guy on the news has a deep voice just doesn't seem right. I have buttkickers in the floor, and bass shakers in the furniture. The buttkickers aren't too bad, but the bass shakers have a natural resonance around 40hz, which is WAY too high for me. I use both channels of a BFD to EQ them separately, and I also have an inline low pass filter upstream of the BFD to help roll things off (in addition to some significant cuts with the BFD). I was hoping with the 4311 maybe I could simplify things a tad. If nothing else, I'll be able to get rid of the Y cable. FWIW, my sub has a -3d point around 11.5hz, so it could dip into the shaker region a bit. Fortunately though, most of my EQ needs are in the higher ranges, so Audyssey doesn't do much down there.
post #73 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think when you are worried about bi-amping Zone 2 you are officially at the outer limits of what consumers could possibly want in terms of amp assign flexibility

I will note that you actually CAN bi-amp the secondary speakers if you are willing to run them as "B" speakers. Obviously you would lose the ability to do true "zone" audio with separate sources in the two rooms, but you can do "Front B Bi-Amp" and set up the nicer B&W in-walls as dedicated 2-ch music speakers with two amps each.

Or, just keep using the Carver amp, which is not only free, but is almost certainly more powerful than even bi-amping from an AVR. A receiver's amp section isn't going to stand up to a Carver pro amp.

Indeed it is free. It 's also very loud so although it's in an AV closet whenever the door is left open you can hear it.

The bigger problem historically has been the lack of digital in to zone 2 on my existing 4306. Something I'm very much looking forward to is to being able to run AirPlay into the 4311 or A100 and have access to a real pre-amp before the Carver Pro. I can then get volume control etc., from the Denon without having to rely on iTunes Remote app.

So, I'm good. Of course what I asked about was very far from the norm BUT if the amps were truly universally assignable I would have had another option.
post #74 of 23136
4311 is up on the Denon website with limited information
post #75 of 23136
limited? I see a manual for download.... I should be reading it (instead of working) very soon!

product sheet is also available. same physical dimensions as 4310ci but 2.5kg heavier (extra two amps + bigger power supply I presume?)
http://www.usa.denon.com/AVR-4311CI_Lit_903.pdf
post #76 of 23136
Yep, they added all of that in between looks!
post #77 of 23136
things I noticed browsing the manual (no particular order):

- 4-ohm support confirmed (there is a "speaker impedance" setting with 4/6/8 as options, pg 98 of the manual)

- GUI looks the same as with the 4310/4810 models (and still will not overlay on 3D content)

- there is NO "free assign" function (as in the 4810) but, when the amp is in "pre-amp" mode (pg62) you can still use internal amps to power Zone 2/3 speakers (Zone 2 will run off "surr.back" and Zone 2 will run off "front wide"). Commence the teeth-gnashing from James!

- following up on this, when in "11.2" mode, you can select whether to use an external amp for front wide or front height.

- Dolby Volume is there (pg 91) but when you turn it on, it automatically turns MultEQ XT 32 off! So, you cannot combine the eq filters of Audyssey with the volume leveling of Dolby Volume.

- you can select which of the dual HDMI monitor outputs gets the "standby passthrough" signal (pg 99) using the "Control Monitor" setting. Not something I would use but pretty cool
post #78 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

when in "11.2" mode, you can select whether to use an external amp for front wide or front height.

CRAP! Why'd they have to limit it THAT much? I already power my rear channels externally, because I send rear L/R to another DLPII receiver to further process the rears into 5 channels. So now to get 11 channels, I'm going to have to get an external amp, while two of the amp channels in the 4311 sit idle.

Quote:


Dolby Volume is there (pg 91) but when you turn it on, it automatically turns MultEQ XT 32 off! So, you cannot combine the eq filters of Audyssey with the volume leveling of Dolby Volume.

That's disappointing too.
post #79 of 23136
Darin, you may win the "most complicated setup" award transducers in the floor AND the couch, with separate filtering requirements and separate EQ'ing with the BFD, and now you reveal that you take two surround channels and use PLII to process them into FIVE channels?? how does that work exactly??? isn't that kind of redundant with just using PLIIx to process two surrounds channels into 4?

sounds like if you went with a more traditional arrangement (4 surrounds processed by PLIIx) you could just switch your amp to power "front height" and then you wouldn't have to purchase any more amps...
post #80 of 23136
Still not available for purchase anywhere! Anyone know when it will be shipping?
post #81 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

how does that work exactly??? isn't that kind of redundant with just using PLIIx to process two surrounds channels into 4?

I don't think I'm the ONLY one doing something like this, but I concede that it's rare. In my case, I'm compensating for a small room with a poor layout. I don't have the luxury of having my seating in the middle of a room, so it helps to spread the sound out a bit in a scenario where I can't really get speakers behind the listener. It actually works suprisingly well... there is a "difference" in the rear L & R channels, enough for the PLII circuitry in the 2nd amp to pick up on and spread around a little more.

It's not the end of the world - my understanding is the height speakers don't need much power, so I shouldn't need a big amp for them. It's just one more thing to try and cram in there.
post #82 of 23136
Quote:


there is a "difference" in the rear L & R channels, enough for the PLII circuitry in the 2nd amp to pick up on and spread around a little more.

FYI - this is basically exactly how PLIIx derives 4 surrounds from two, by seeing "differences" in the stereo imaging of the standard 2 surrounds (in 5.1) and distributing that to 4 surrounds (for 7.1). I think it's time to modernize that arrangement and just trust PLIIx
post #83 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

ahhh, the old butt-shakers I'm with you now!

Audyssey will not apply any EQ filters below the measured roll-off of the subwoofer, so it probably will not be doing any EQ'ing in the "butt shaker region". For example, if your regular sub's -3dB point is measured to be 27Hz, Audyssey will taper off the correction below that point (assuming the transducers are not connected during the Audyssey measurements), so if the butt-shakers are only playing sub-20Hz, no correction will be applied.

You do not get the benefit of a separate LPF for the transducers, but don't they kind of roll off naturally above a certain point?

Hmmm...I figured Audyssey worked by listening to the sound of the subwoofers via the mic....How would it know the butt kickers even exist?
post #84 of 23136
The PDF Picture shows "Made in Japan".............I am happy about that!
post #85 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjktcvs View Post

Hmmm...I figured Audyssey worked by listening to the sound of the subwoofers via the mic....How would it know the butt kickers even exist?

I think, with Audyssey, you don't WANT it to "know" that they exist! The subsonic stuff produced by the buttkickers is mostly nearfield tactile, and isn't going to be influenced by room acoustic issues. I honestly doubt the mic could even pick up on what they are producing....

From my understanding of what I've seen on the Audyssey thread, most people just EQ the rig without the buttkickers attached, then hook them up at the end and adjust to their preferred level of "butt kicking".
post #86 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

FYI - this is basically exactly how PLIIx derives 4 surrounds from two, by seeing "differences" in the stereo imaging of the standard 2 surrounds

That was exactly my point. There are differences (and commonalities) in the rears that the (secondary) PLIIx processor is able to further extrapolate into more channels.
Quote:


I think it's time to modernize that arrangement and just trust PLIIx

If stock PLIIx gave me enough channels in the rear to make up for my layout, I would. My system operates like any other PLIIx system except that some sounds from the two rear speakers are re-assigned to additional speakers. Height channels and wide front channels operate on the same principles. Many people in this thread are looking to the 4311 to "modernize" up to those configurations. I don't understand why you'd suggest that an (admittedly hacked) application of the same principles to the rear channels is antiquated.
post #87 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think, with Audyssey, you don't WANT it to "know" that they exist! ... From my understanding of what I've seen on the Audyssey thread, most people just EQ the rig without the buttkickers attached

Absolutely. You don't want them affecting the readings of the speakers. I attach my mic to a tripod and move it to different seats when measuring. Having that seat vibrate during measurement would most certainly color the results! I just turn off those amps when I test.
post #88 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

don't understand why you'd suggest that an (admittedly hacked) application of the same principles to the rear channels is antiquated.

well, it's not "antiquated" in the sense that what you are doing (in principle) is perfectly valid. But (1) you have to resort to an admitted hack to achieve this setup (as opposed to the elegance of just using one box to process all channels) and, more importantly IMO, (2) how can you EQ each speaker independently using Audyssey with this arrangement?

As far as the "core" processor is concerned, it is just outputting TWO surround channels, which, if I understand correctly, you are then converting into 5 channels "upstream" using an external processor to apply PLII to the two surrounds. So you get one extra speaker (versus using PLIIx to turn 2 surround channels into 4) but you have to use an extra piece of equipment, and you can't EQ the channels independently.

To me, the benefits of using 4 surrounds, properly generated with PLIIx and EQ'd individually, have to outweigh the benefit of the one extra surround speaker you have in your setup. But whatever works for you!


Quote:


Height channels and wide front channels operate on the same principles.

FYI - this is not actually accurate. They are not derived via the same sort of "matrix" processing that (for example) you can use to generate a center channel from stereo content (by steering "in phase" content from both channels to the center). Audyssey is adamant that their DSX processing is NOT the same as the standard matrix steering for, say, PLII. The "wide" channels are not just a simple "mixture" of the surrounds and fronts to create "in between" sounds.
post #89 of 23136
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

how can you EQ each speaker independently using Audyssey with this arrangement?

The additional channels don't benefit from Audyssey. I am, however, using matching speakers (with the exception of a dipole pair), so the only inaccuracies would be due to their different placements in the room. The 5 rear channels are calibrated first (for distance and levels), then the the main receiver does everything else (that way, any coloration or processing delays from the secondary receiver should be accounted for).

Quote:


if I understand correctly, you are then converting into 5 channels "upstream" using an external processor to apply PLII to the two surrounds. So you get one extra speaker (versus using PLIIx to turn 2 surround channels into 4) but you have to use an extra piece of equipment, and you can't EQ the channels independently.

Not quite... I have the standard 7.1 setup. BUT, the two rear channels are fed through a 5.1 PLII receiver (but no sub attached to it). So everything that my 7.1 receiver outputs goes to the same place that it would with a standard 7.1 setup, EXCEPT that some sounds directed to the two rear channels get re-directed to some additional rear speakers (3 extras). So effectively, it's 10.1.
Quote:


But whatever works for you!

Exactly. I can easily revert to "stock" 7.1 by just putting the "rear" receiver into stereo mode, but the extra DPL processing really does help in my "bad" room.

Quote:


FYI - this is not actually accurate. They are not derived via the same sort of "matrix" processing that (for example) you can use to generate a center channel from stereo content (by steering "in phase" content from both channels to the center). Audyssey is adamant that their DSX processing is NOT the same as the standard matrix steering for, say, PLII. The "wide" channels are not just a simple "mixture" of the surrounds and fronts to create "in between" sounds.

Well, for that matter, PLII also isn't "simple" matrixing. But it is steering that is based on the phase differences and commonalities of various discreet channels. Audyssey can apply their own logic to it, but they still have to produce an end result that is similar. Because it's phase differences and commonalities that makes us perceive sounds coming from between speakers, or outside them. That's why movies (and even music) that was recorded before Dolby sound still worked relatively well once Dolby surround was invented. In a standard 5.1 recording, the sounds intended to be perceived as between the right surround and right front need to be in phase, because that is what makes our senses believe that's where they are. They can apply their own enhancements to it, but if they vere TOO far from that simple logic, they risk placing sounds in spots that perhaps weren't intended to be perceived from that spot. That's my take, anyway.
post #90 of 23136
I have two questions about the 4311.

1. If I have a 5 channel external amp, will I be able to run my LF, C, RF, RL, RR off of the external amp, then with preamp mode shut off the receiver's 5 channels and then run my height and/or side backs off of the receivers internal amps?

2. I noticed the power consumption of the 4311 is 780W. I also have been looking at the Onkyo 3008/5008 and their power consumption is 1060W. Is this big of power discrepancy something I should be concerned about? As in does this mean the Onkyo has beefier amps?
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