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The Downfall Of Bose... - Page 8

post #211 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyken View Post

I do not now or have I ever owned Klipsch speakers. I have nevered owned any speakers of any brand with horns. My present system is Infinity Betas but, in the interest of full disclosure, I have seen a review which referred to the Beta's recessed tweeter as being structured somewhat like a modified horn. I have never thought of them as being horns, but I would not be upset if I learned that is what they are.

What really piqued my interest was your remarks concerning optical cables and their "brightness". I ask that you please expand on this as I as a user of hdmi, optical and coaxial cables in my systems am fascinated on what differences I may be unaware of.

Here is some stuff on cable.

Q: : What is the difference between a "balanced" interconnect and a "single-ended" (RCA) interconnect?

* Transparent balanced interconnects, like balanced amplifiers and source components, use common-mode noise rejection to transfer the musical signal with less noise interference. In a single-ended circuit there is a positive and a negative, and the negative also acts as the ground. In a balanced circuit there is a positive signal, an inverted signal, and a separate system ground. There are several advantages to a balanced design: ground noise is kept separate from the audio signal, and the symmetrical design naturally cancels EMI and RFI noise.

Our balanced interconnects are completely different from our single-ended (RCA) interconnects. Each Transparent balanced interconnect has three conductors (positive, inverted, and system ground), a separate shield, and two matched networks: one for each signal carrying conductor. Our single-ended (RCA) interconnects have two identical conductors, a shield, and one network.

Note: Many of the "balanced" interconnects on the market are really single-ended cables terminated with the XLR connectors. Transparent's balanced cables are true balanced designs that will reveal all the subtleties of your balanced components and take advantage of their inherently lower noise floor.




Q: My system has both balanced (XLR) and single-ended (RCA) connections. Should I use a single-ended interconnect or a balanced interconnect?

* Use Transparent balanced interconnects between your balanced components to take full advantage of their expensive balanced circuits. The balanced connections will lower the noise floor of your system, and you will hear significant improvements in dynamics, sound stage and low-level resolution. Buying balanced components and connecting them with single-ended cables is like buying a 5-speed car and only using the first 3 gears!

For connections between balanced and single-ended components use a Transparent single-ended interconnect. There is no benefit to be gained from using a balanced interconnect with a single-ended component. Instead, you should use a higher level Transparent single-ended interconnect.


"different schools of thought and perception on this one. Toslink or Optical, some claim that they sound harsh, thin, bright. Digital Coaxials are some hear it to be warmer and fuller. Some claim to hear no difference, so it is all in your ears and how you perceive the sound, and on that note, all that matters is how you hear it and how you like it." http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/3/51418.html

I am having a hard time finding it on paper about it being bright but a lot of people say it and I have hard it on good and bad equipment being bright. The real two befits optical gives you is long runs of cable without loss of single and they can hold 5.1 in one small cable. I will keep looking for good info on it being bright. I did see it a long time ago in a crutchfield mag talking about the cables SQ. Toslink is pretty old school now and we know there are better connections out there now. Bals is still the best but it cost a lot and only high end audio equipment has it. Marantz Blu-ray has it if you want too spend $5,000 or more! Toslink is ok but not my cup of tea for music but movies you can't really here the problem with Toslink but when glass breaks in the movie then you will here the problem. The best way too now is listen to a song using Toslink then listen too the same song with the same equipment with Bal's or coaxial cables or RCA. Try a bright sounding disc like a soundtrack cd like Top gun then hear which cable makes it softer. Make sure it is real Bals and not just a connector on the end!
post #212 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamespblues View Post

Is Bose saying facts too there buyers out there!

** scratches head trying to figure out what it is you are trying to say **

Your tortured grammar and nonsensical sentences are the real cause of headaches around here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamespblues View Post

"different schools of thought and perception on this one. Toslink or Optical, some claim that they sound harsh, thin, bright. Digital Coaxials are some hear it to be warmer and fuller. Some claim to hear no difference, so it is all in your ears and how you perceive the sound, and on that note, all that matters is how you hear it and how you like it." http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/3/51418.html

I am having a hard time finding it on paper about it being bright but a lot of people say it and I have hard it on good and bad equipment being bright. The real two befits optical gives you is long runs of cable without loss of single and they can hold 5.1 in one small cable. I will keep looking for good info on it being bright. I did see it a long time ago in a crutchfield mag talking about the cables SQ. Toslink is pretty old school now and we know there are better connections out there now. Bals is still the best but it cost a lot and only high end audio equipment has it. Marantz Blu-ray has it if you want too spend $5,000 or more! Toslink is ok but not my cup of tea for music but movies you can't really here the problem with Toslink but when glass breaks in the movie then you will here the problem. The best way too now is listen to a song using Toslink then listen too the same song with the same equipment with Bal's or coaxial cables or RCA. Try a bright sounding disc like a soundtrack cd like Top gun then hear which cable makes it softer. Make sure it is real Bals and not just a connector on the end!

Um, "a lot of people say" and "I did see it a long time ago in a Crutchfield mag" do not really qualify as as useful information. But it's DIGITAL optical anyway, so it makes no sense to me whatsoever for the toslink to be any different than coax other than introduced noise. It's like saying the $125 6' HDMI cable gives "brighter colors" than the $5 6' HDMI cable.
post #213 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Thanks for replying. Sounds like an interesting setup. I'll probably never have the chance to hear anything like that, but I am thinking with the right tunes, a soundstage like that might sound pretty amazing. Again, thanks for sharing!

You bet. if you do ever get the chance to hear them, don't pass it up.
post #214 of 419
Man I really like this jamespblues guy. Talk about getting down with all sides of the argument! I'll give him a 9.3 for tenacity!

like watching a 5 year old playing "I hit you last!"
post #215 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamespblues View Post

Hell I just said Horn speakers are bright are we bashing them no it is a fact! Toslink Digital Optical Cable makes movies and music sound bright too that is a fact!

Wow. Quick way to kill any credibility if you ask me.
post #216 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamespblues View Post

We are not bashing Bose just saying facts! Hell I just said Horn speakers are bright are we bashing them no it is a fact! Toslink Digital Optical Cable makes movies and music sound bright too that is a fact! I did not bash optical cables there are better cables out there then Optical. Same for Bose there are better speakers out there for the money. For me too say Optical cable is better then bals then that is crazy talk. So saying Bose makes great speakers and is high end that is crazy talk! I had radio shack speakers at one time but I did not go on a forum or talk too people and said I have great Audiophiles speakers. I know radio shack speakers are junk and that was what I could afford at that time but I did not spend $1,000 or more on junk!

Do you beleive what youe write? You are trying to pull something, and its obvious that you don't know that there is No sound From toslink because its a digital signal. And Not ALL radio shack speakers are "junk" I am surprised
at what people call junk. A COBY Boombox is Junk and a fire hazard, a pair of 2-way RCA bookehelves are not

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamespblues View Post

You don't know anything and too say there is not much different from one speaker too the next shows it big time.

LOL! Not every speaker you listen to is going to be magiclally different from one another, especially in the average home enviroment, if your statement was true it would be impossible to use different brands of speakers in a surround system, but of course it is, I am using 2 different brands of speakers and it sounds consistant.

I could call you what you are but I wont for fear of Banishment or adminstrative action but I will NOT.
post #217 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond Leggs View Post

LOL! Not every speaker you listen to is going to be magiclally different from one another, especially in the average home enviroment, if your statement was true it would be impossible to use different brands of speakers in a surround system, but of course it is, I am using 2 different brands of speakers and it sounds consistant.

But most of the time if one trys using different series or brands there can and will be a huge difference. Try mixing soft dome tweeter speakers with Al, Ti, Be tweeters. There will be a difference. Over 10 years ago I mixed three soft '73 JBLs with a pair of al '77 JBLs. Huge difference
post #218 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

But most of the time if one trys using different series or brands there can and will be a huge difference. Try mixing soft dome tweeter speakers with Al, Ti, Be tweeters. There will be a difference. Over 10 years ago I mixed three soft '73 JBLs with a pair of al '77 JBLs. Huge difference

I understand, But my speakers all either have soft domes (Mylar, and poly) and cones for tweeters, so I guess I'm fortunate to not have a Hard dome tweeter in my system.
post #219 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond Leggs View Post

I understand, But my speakers all either have soft domes (Mylar, and poly) and cones for tweeters, so I guess I'm fortunate to not have a Hard dome tweeter in my system.

I would not say that. Ti and Al tweeters can be and are smooth as silk. Running my PT800s and custom L212s thru all Parasound gear, makes them smooth, in an all concrete room! I did have to add 10 absorption panels.
post #220 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamespblues View Post

There crossovers are not much too talk about, they use bulbs in most of there speakers so they don't blow,

I've seen some pics of their innards and it does look as cheap as can possible be like no PCB for the crossover. Just crap components screwed to the inside of the cabinet.

But seriously. Do they really use light bulbs for fuses? Do the speakers illuminate with the music like some kind of cheap disco show? lol
post #221 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave1027 View Post

But seriously. Do they really use light bulbs for fuses? Do the speakers illuminate with the music like some kind of cheap disco show? lol

I'm lost on who's talking to who...

Within the narrow confines of that question though, using ALL brands instead of perhaps being guided towards one....then yes.

I have a pair of Electrovoice Interface D's. Bought them new in 1978. They have a 12v "auto" style bulb in line with the tweeter (parallel I think) so if you start pushing things to hard, the bulb WILL light up.

I think the theory is, the power goes up and gets soaked up by the bulb showing as light instead of burning your tweeters.

Given that I still managed to wipe out 2 or 3 tweeter diaphragms during college I don't know how well the bulb worked. Then again, I probalby burnt the bulb out as well.

I understand that the bulb does not affect the sound in any other (major) way since at lower power it's merely a piece of wire.

The EV's are fairly regarded so take that for what it's worth.

Second, my bro in law has some powered EV's (SXa 100's if I recall) and I THINK they have the same thing going on inside of them. He thought the bulb lit up when turned on or something, but my experience with my EV's made me point out that it might be more of the same thing.

My EV's have a full fledged crossover so the bulb is not any part of the crossover network, just a tweeter protection thing.

If I've screwed up my understanding then pardon my post.
post #222 of 419
and yes, the bulb DOES light up. On my EV's there is a little "pass through" plastic thing (think lens) that when the bulb lights up, it shows on the outside of the speaker at this little 1/4" "dot"
post #223 of 419
Haha, that was hilarious!

(You have the read the quoted response in order to get it)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Riffmeister View Post

Most but not all of their products sound horrible.

Not Bose.
Noise cancelling headphones have been used in aviation for over 50 years. Bose certainly didn't invent it.
2.1 systems have been marketed since the 70s. Bose simply marketed better than some others.
Blaupunkt, back in the 1930s.
Sorry to hear that.Yes, Bose calls them "speakers".
At least they admit they are just in it for the money.
Which makes their shame even greater.
I have a Bose sytem that came with my car and it sounds as awful if not worse than any Bose home system.
post #224 of 419
Thanks for that info. If I recall correctly, I've read some articles in the 70s and 80s that praised a lot of Bose speakers for their technology and advancement.

Although audio appreciators may not like what Bose has become, it's hard not to be jealous of their success!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryAJ View Post

Hi Tom, I was a Product Specialist for Bose in mid 80's - early 90's. Bose decided the High End Audiophile represented a much smaller portion of the buying public. In an effort to offer products to the 90% or so of the general public they simply went a different direction. As you have probably noticed, most of their products are created around their 4" Speaker which you may recall was a component of the original 901 Series. The 4" Driver is used in their oem Auto Sound, some of their Acoustimass products, The Cinemate, which is for TV connection. The company has grown tremendously since I left them. So, from a Business stand point I think they made the right call. As you know they now have their own Retail Stores, as does Sony. In fact, that is partly to blame for the elimination of my field position. I'm not bitter, in fact I feel fortunate to have spent time with Dr. Bose and the engineering staff for the years I was a part of the company.
post #225 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackzarg View Post

Thanks for that info. If I recall correctly, I've read some articles in the 70s and 80s that praised a lot of Bose speakers for their technology and advancement.

Although audio appreciators may not like what Bose has become, it's hard not to be jealous of their success!

do wish they would drop the lifestyle line and introduce new bookshelf speakers, I'd be happy if they re released the 601, which they discontined in 2004
post #226 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevensctt View Post

Setting products and product performance aside, the primary resonsibilty of a company/business/organization is a profitable return to its owners/shareholders/investors.

Bose may be a private company and financials unavailable, but maybe their balance sheet is in far better shape than their competitors.

I would suspect that globally, the Bose "brand" is very recognizable and generally associated with quality.

I would also suspect a great deal of inustry envy. Bose is probably doing something right by their owners/shareholders.

If you were to invest in an audio company, would anyone invest in a company other than Bose?

I would invest in KEF. I recently got their T105 5.1 system and I'm impressed. For 1300$ they sound better than the 2600$ Bose system.
post #227 of 419
I have sinned...I'm at a bose store lol girlfriend told the rep the speakers suck haha
post #228 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I have sinned...I'm at a bose store lol girlfriend told the rep the speakers suck haha

marry her
post #229 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post


marry her

In the works haha. Ill upload some pics of the store when I get home
post #230 of 419
Took some pics of a bose store i found. The workers there weren't very knowledgeable



post #231 of 419
Bose =
Better
Off
Something
Else
post #232 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond Leggs View Post

do wish they would drop the lifestyle line and introduce new bookshelf speakers, I'd be happy if they re released the 601, which they discontined in 2004

I remember listening to those in one of those claustrophobic "rooms" at Circuit City many years ago, comparing to whatever Polk had out at the time for a comparable price. I remember that I liked the reflected sound, in that little listening box at least.

The only thing I remember from a Bose store was around the same time, when a saleswoman asked me to listen to the Acoustimass surround setup, and I said no, thanks--I was really only interested in stereo. She said, "So was Dr. Bose!" As if, that high praise would motivate me to lay down the green.
post #233 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mojo View Post

Bose =
Better
Off
Something
Else


I kinda like the "Bose = Buy Other Stereo Equipment" myself.
post #234 of 419
Better off somewhere else?
post #235 of 419
^^ yes!!
post #236 of 419
Better Off Shopping Elsewhere
post #237 of 419
Buy Overpriced Sound Equipment

On a more serious note, and going back to the beginning of this thread (which I just discovered this morning), I don't think that an audio company should only be about marketing and price points, particularly when everyone is looking for good sound. No one in their right mind goes into a store hunting for bad or mediocre sound quality.

Some of these systems are not inexpensive, and their marketing suggests that good sound is the design goal. So they have created their own goalpost, but it's arguable they haven't really attempted to reach it. Audio design is about reproducing sound well, and that is possible to do within various price tiers.

It is possible to make tiny, unobtrusive speakers that have excellent sound...the Cambridge Audio Minx systems being one example.

It's also about moving things forward, and educating or informing people about quality in any area. If you would expose people to a system like the Minx at the same time as they are auditioning a Bose system I think they would hear a difference...a difference that would expose people to refinement, which is a good thing.

Regarding "the bottom line", a film or video game company can make a ton of money marketing questionable material, but at the cost of dragging culture down. Is that a good thing? I don't believe so.

Quality does matter.

On a final note, companies like Mirage and others have made very fine sounding speakers using some indirect or reflected sound, and the original Bose 901s were interesting speakers. So Bose could have sought an evolutionary path if it had wanted to.

Just my three cents. (adjusted for inflation)
post #238 of 419
I too just discovered this recently bumped old thread...for me, Bose's heavy marketing of smaller satelitte systems suggests that they have found an important niche...the consumer who wants good sound that is easy to set up and can be hidden in a living room. Problem is, they forgot about the good sound...but a lot of people still believe in the name and will buy anyway.

But to believe (or worse, claim) you are going to get full range sound from a small system with 3 inch drivers, no tweeters and no real subwoofer...
post #239 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

...an important niche...the consumer who wants good sound that is easy to set up and can be hidden in a living room. Problem is, they forgot about the good sound...but a lot of people still believe in the name and will buy anyway.

But to believe (or worse, claim) you are going to get full range sound from a small system with 3 inch drivers, no tweeters and no real subwoofer...

I am not currently an owner of a Cambridge Audio Minx system (nor am I associated with the company, nor am I a vendor), but the reviews are pretty interesting. Although the complete systems include a subwoofer, the "satellites" are very small, yet apparently produce first rate sound. The speakers use a single, crossover-less driver for the treble/midrange/upper bass which has unique properties. There is also a variant of the speaker which use two full range drivers rather than one.

There is a thread on these started by perpendicular which includes links to reviews, and you might be surprised by what they say. Apparently, however, the speakers need 20+ hours to "open up" and really show their stuff, something that reviewers were unlikely to have the time to do, which makes the reviews even more impressive.

The lowest priced 5.1 system is very affordable.

My girlfriend would be happy with the unobtrusiveness of these speakers.
post #240 of 419
I think the balanced mode radiator drivers in the Minx speaker systems are better than those of Bose...but if you see the freq response of that system (a lot better than Bose satelitte systems)...it still has some gaps. Again, this might be about as good as a system dependant on 3 inch drivers can get, and considerably better than Bose...but NOT better than a system with bigger drivers, tweeters and a good subwoofer driver.
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