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Is the Dirac Research AP20 a SOTA SSP? - Page 25

post #721 of 785
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Aah yes, that slippery slope ...
Yes, but if the DL3 ends up costing 50-10% more than the DL2, all these extras would justify it. And you would have to products competing in two different markets with little risk of them cannibalizing each other. Whereas few differences would not allow for much differentiation in price and features, which could lead to cannibalizing and higher production costs with diminishing returns in profit margins.
post #722 of 785
Just a heads up --

If anyone is interested in an AP20, mine is for sale in the audio classifieds section of this very forum...

Thanks!

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430133/datasat-ap20-audio-processor-with-room-correction-cables
post #723 of 785
Thread Starter 
That's a great deal.
post #724 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Soon, very soon. We are hoping to begin taking discounted 'pre-orders' before Christmas.
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

Busy busy busy.........................Any more news Carl, how's things progressing?
post #725 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj1 View Post

Busy busy busy.........................Any more news Carl, how's things progressing?

Ha, ha ...

No news worth reporting but I hope to have some soon.
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
post #726 of 785
post #727 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Any one used this?

http://www.dirac.se/en/consumer-products/dirac-rcs.aspx

That is Dirac Live vrsn 2.x. It is an excellent product. It works especially well with PC sound products as sold by RME, Lynx and similar quality products from other companies. Reviews are starting to show on the web. All are positive. I invite you to Google 'Dirac Live'.
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
post #728 of 785
post #729 of 785
WSE,

I invite you to scroll down the page and read the review by Edorr. Bottom line is Dirac Live will not magically turn lousy gear and bad loudspeakers into something good.

Dirac Live requires that a quality calibrated measurement microphone be used to generate the filters. It's the old 'garbage in equals garbage out' metaphor realized. The Dayton UMM-6 USB microphone (with cal file) is a good entrance level device. An Audix TM1, Earthworks M23 or M30 is better.

You also need a quality PC sound card for playback. You must use a quality product by RME, Lynx or similar vendor as your system will never sound better that your weakest link.
________________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
post #730 of 785
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Doesn't sound all that great and it's very pricey!!
The thread you linked does not draw the same conclusions about sound quality. Are you wgscott? If not, have you heard it? If yes, what mic did you use to carry out your measurements?

Considering the numerous positive reports about Dirac Live in this and other threads at this forum, not to mention other places on the web, could you please elaborate why you feel it does not sound that good?
post #731 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Any one used this?

http://www.dirac.se/en/consumer-products/dirac-rcs.aspx
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Doesn't sound all that great and it's very pricey!!

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/dirac-live-room-correction-suite-initial-impressions-free-trial-15137/
You went from question to conclusion in half an hour?
post #732 of 785

No conclusion just questions!! Before I pay $600 for a piece of software!

 

Let me see 800 Diamonds are lousy speakers :)

post #733 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

No conclusion just questions!! Before I pay $600 for a piece of software!

Let me see 800 Diamonds are lousy speakers smile.gif

You actually pay nothing until you have figured out if this software can improve performance of your system - there is a free trial. I personally would never make a decision about buying DRC software based on other people's opinions / experience. The results are somewhat unpredictable, and probably very dependent on a lot of variables (some highly controllable, other less controllable).

I can assure you there will be quite a noticable change in sound quality. I'm quite convinced that with enough fiddling and trial and error this will be a change for the better in most applications. I can also see how you spend a few hours playing with this, don't get the desired result and decide to ditch DRC (prematurely in most cases). In fact, I was ready to ditch my Trinnov at some point until Curt suggested some changes and got me back into the DRC game.

If it improves sound of your system $600 is a steal (half the price of a powercord in my case). If it does not, obvioulsly it is a waste of money.
post #734 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

I can also see how you spend a few hours playing with this, don't get the desired result and decide to ditch DRC (prematurely in most cases).

^^^^^^^^
This.

Learning how to use, and then optimize this kind of product requires time and dedication.
post #735 of 785

How many hours?

post #736 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Learning how to use, and then optimize this kind of product requires time and dedication.

Oh yea,

The good news is that Dirac Live allows you to totally change the character of your system.

The bad news is that Dirac Live allows you to totally change the character of your system!

Modern DRC tools like Dirac Live make it extremely easy to completely screw things up. Forums such as this one where users share their knowledge and experience are invaluable and go a long ways to lessen the learning curve.
_______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
post #737 of 785

Have you experience with this and how does it compare to DIRAC

 

http://www.deqx.com/faq.php

post #738 of 785
Thread Starter 
Two different animals, although they share some objectives; e.g. REQ
post #739 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Have you experience with this and how does it compare to DIRAC

http://www.deqx.com/faq.php

For a PC based product comparable to Dirac (functionality wise), look at audiolense

http://www.juicehifi.com/no/show.asp?page=goxpage00000037.html
post #740 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Have you experience with this and how does it compare to DIRAC

DEQX is primarily an active crossover, with far less room correction capability. DEQX units are great at time and level aligning individual drivers (including adding subs to mains) and correcting response anomalies for individual drivers. DEQX units are also very good at adding a defined "character", like "more warmth" or "less upper end glare" to speakers.

DEQX units are not very good room correction or overall speaker-in-room correction devices. Dirac and Trinnov are far better at that.
post #741 of 785
IIRC from what I was told at the DEQX demo, DEQX will apply +-3dB max in an effort to make the measured response more linear. No target curves. Some ability to affect HF/LF to taste after correction.
post #742 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

DEQX is primarily an active crossover, with far less room correction capability. DEQX units are great at time and level aligning individual drivers (including adding subs to mains) and correcting response anomalies for individual drivers. DEQX units are also very good at adding a defined "character", like "more warmth" or "less upper end glare" to speakers.
DEQX units are not very good room correction or overall speaker-in-room correction devices. Dirac and Trinnov are far better at that.

Interesting the thought of adding an other box haunt me!
post #743 of 785
Thread Starter 
DEQX really shines in systems that were designed for it; e.g. the NHT Xd DSP speakers and the Legend Acoustics Tikandi system.
post #744 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

DEQX is primarily an active crossover, with far less room correction capability. DEQX units are great at time and level aligning individual drivers (including adding subs to mains) and correcting response anomalies for individual drivers. DEQX units are also very good at adding a defined "character", like "more warmth" or "less upper end glare" to speakers.

DEQX units are not very good room correction or overall speaker-in-room correction devices. Dirac and Trinnov are far better at that.

DEQX's USP is the linear phase speaker frequency response and group delay correction. The speaker is measured nearfield to exclude the room's influence (semi-anechoically, using impulse response gating to window out reflections) or better still outside.

All of their units offer digital crossover functionality. The HDP-4 and Express II can support up to a three way and you can gang two units together to do a four or five way. The MATE can support a two way digital crossover which was intended for those wanting to manage the crossover between a subwoofer and main speakers.

All the DEQX processors have ability to add fully configurable parametric EQ filters for recording EQ. It can, of course, be disabled.

Now we come to the debatable part which is full range 20Hz-20kHz room correction. Traditionally most high end home theaters do not use full range room correction, they are using only a few parametric EQ filters for the low bass region. Room correction cannot solve all a room's acoustical issues. I wrote a room correction primer on this a few years ago as well as a more detailed follow up article.

In the typical measurement location in a home theater there is no way for the mic to separate out the speaker's response from the room's influence, so you are correcting both. In the room mode region, say under 300Hz this is fine because the frequency response you hear is dominated by the effect of room modes. Above this region what you hear is dominated by the speakers, in particular the spectral response of their first reflections (side walls, ceiling, floor, back wall, etc). If you are running full range room correction you are really correcting the speakers and there is virtually no way of knowing what you should be correcting to. All speakers will have a slightly different spectral response of their first reflections so the question is what should the target curve be? The only real way you can properly set the target curve is to measure the speakers anechoically and the only company I know who does this is JBL Synthesis. When you run the 'room correction (ARCHOS)' the processor has the anechoic measurements of the JBL speakers in it so it knows what it should be correcting to.

Assuming you have done a good a job as you can in terms of: speaker quality, room layout and acoustic treatment then by all means use full range room correction. Just be prepared for extensive experimentation with the target curve. I feel a lot of people use it without optimizing their room layout and acoustics first.

The DEQX philosophy and approach is in my book very solid. It is correct the speaker down to say 150Hz, passively fix the room as best you can and use parametric EQ based room correction only sparingly in the low bass say below 200Hz.
post #745 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

IIRC from what I was told at the DEQX demo, DEQX will apply +-3dB max in an effort to make the measured response more linear. No target curves. Some ability to affect HF/LF to taste after correction.

You have full control over the speaker correction limits in the DEQX both in terms of frequency response and upper and lower correction frequencies. You could have a +10dB correction if you wanted.

There is no target curve for speaker correction because it is assumed that you want to correct the speaker's nearfield response to be a flat line.

You can tailor the overall response back at the listening position as much as you want after that using the parametric EQ. You could add a 15dB cut at 20kHz and a 10dB boost at 20Hz if you wanted.
post #746 of 785
I played around with Dirac this week end, and created four curves:

1. +5db at 20hz sloping down to flat at 300Hz flat through 2000hz then sloping down to -5dB at 18,000 hz - This is very similar to my target curve in Trinnov
2. +5db at 20hz sloping down to flat at 300Hz - no correction beyond 300 Hz
3. The Dirac house curve (standard generated)
4. Flat curve

The difference betwen the four curves and no DRC were quite dramatic. Surprisingly, applying no correction above 300Hz sounded poor (2) - I had high hopes for this one. Somehow the highs sounded muffled. The "flat curve" (4) was also a non starter. I ended up prefering curve (1), which is basically the same shape I have set up in my Trinnov.

Based on my experience, any DRC that does not allow you to create a custom response curve is useless.
post #747 of 785
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Based on my experience, any DRC that does not allow you to create a custom response curve is useless.
I'm not sure I would use the word "useless", but it certainly is of limited value. I purchased the Sherwood R 972 in their fire sale for the rec-room, it has limited choices for DRC (none user customizable), but it is nonetheless useful in the context of my rec-room.
post #748 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Interesting the thought of adding an other box haunt me!

I used a DEQX for several years in a system with a Meridian 861. The degradation of the incremental box was far outweighed by the improvements the DEQX delivered.
post #749 of 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

I used a DEQX for several years in a system with a Meridian 861. The degradation of the incremental box was far outweighed by the improvements the DEQX delivered.

Indeed, and if you are that worried about it you can do digital in digital out.
post #750 of 785

One more box to buy, I don't think so

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