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Sms-1

post #1 of 43
9/8/10 at 9:12am
Thread Starter 
Can someone explain how this works? I have searched but don't have a fundamental understanding. Can you take measurements at each level and does it increase the volume being sent to the sub for certain frequencies until it reaches the 75db volume for that frequency? For example, if my 40hz is registering at 65db and by 25hz is at 75db, will it send more 10db's of more volume to the sub when a 40hz signal is sent?
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post #2 of 43
9/8/10 at 9:31am
The SMS-1 is an inline equalization system that allows you to see in real time a graphical representation of your room's frequency response, then allows you to adjust multiple variable EQ points (in addition to other settings) in order to smooth out your response. When adjusting your EQ points, typically it is better to drop your peaks rather than trying to boost your valleys.

Here is a link to the brochure

Here is a link to the owner's manual

And here is a link to a review by The Secrets of Home Theater

If you have additional questions feel free to call us.
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post #3 of 43
9/8/10 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay7 View Post

Can someone explain how this works? I have searched but don't have a fundamental understanding. Can you take measurements at each level and does it increase the volume being sent to the sub for certain frequencies until it reaches the 75db volume for that frequency? For example, if my 40hz is registering at 65db and by 25hz is at 75db, will it send more 10db's of more volume to the sub when a 40hz signal is sent?

Here is an excellent how-to guide: http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sms1guide.pdf

Here are my comments on using the SMS-1: http://www.stereophile.com/musicinth...itr/index.html
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post #4 of 43
9/8/10 at 10:29am
Thread Starter 
To both Kal and Rob, that information was very helpful in understanding.

Rob, you noted in your article something about 100hz. How does this work when you have the sub crossed over at 80hz. It seems the 100hz would be played through the towers and thus not be able to be equalized by the sms-1. Maybe I am not understanding how the crossover works completely.
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post #5 of 43
9/8/10 at 10:42am
The test signal can be fed to a channel input with bass management distributing it to the main speaker and the sub. That way you can see how well integrated the two are.
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post #6 of 43
9/8/10 at 11:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

The test signal can be fed to a channel input with bass management distributing it to the main speaker and the sub. That way you can see how well integrated the two are.

Kal, I don't understand completely. Do I hook the speakers up to the SMS-1 as well?
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post #7 of 43
9/8/10 at 11:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Morse View Post

The SMS-1 is an inline equalization system that allows you to see in real time a graphical representation of your room's frequency response, then allows you to adjust multiple variable EQ points (in addition to other settings) in order to smooth out your response. When adjusting your EQ points, typically it is better to drop your peaks rather than trying to boost your valleys.

Here is a link to the brochure

Here is a link to the owner's manual

And here is a link to a review by The Secrets of Home Theater

If you have additional questions feel free to call us.

I would "clarify" Rob's description by saying that it measures and adjusts the effect of the "room" on the response at the listening position. This is a subtle, but important distinction. The SMS-1 does not measure and correct for the entire "room". It is a single-point measurement and correction system. It comes with one mic and it can only measure one position at a time. It can certainly make that one position much better, but it can also make other listening positions worse. This is a fundamental issue with *all* single-point EQ systems.

If you want to correct for a listening area, you would need to take multiple measurements within the area, average them together and then come up with a correction filter set that corrects for all the problems within the listening area. This "potentially" can be done with an SMS-1, but it is computationally challenging, time consuming and difficult.

Jay7, your location says you're in Central PA. I'm in Lancaster. I own an SMS-1 and could show you how to use it, if you're interested. Shoot me a PM and we can talk about it.

Craig
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post #8 of 43
9/8/10 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay7 View Post

Kal, I don't understand completely. Do I hook the speakers up to the SMS-1 as well?

No. Read the manual: You connect the test signal output of the SMS-1 to your processor/AVR.
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post #9 of 43
9/8/10 at 3:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay7 View Post

Kal, I don't understand completely. Do I hook the speakers up to the SMS-1 as well?

The SMS-1's EQ output are connected (as a source) to one of your processors analog inputs. The SMS-1 will provide sweep tones through the processor by selecting the input you have connected it to, sending the sweep tones into your processor's bass management system and crossover. The processor's LFE output will be connected to the SMS-1's input, then the SMS-1's LFE output to your subwoofer. Finally the SMS-1's video output will need to be connected to a monitor.

What will be displayed on your screen is a graph of the sweep tones being played by your subwoofer and your main speakers. The SMS-1 will only allow you to EQ the portion of the signal being played by the subwoofer, so you can move all of the EQ points below the cross-over point set in your processor.
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post #10 of 43
9/8/10 at 3:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I would "clarify" Rob's description by saying that it measures and adjusts the effect of the "room" on the response at the listening position. This is a subtle, but important distinction. The SMS-1 does not measure and correct for the entire "room". It is a single-point measurement and correction system. It comes with one mic and it can only measure one position at a time. It can certainly make that one position much better, but it can also make other listening positions worse. This is a fundamental issue with *all* single-point EQ systems.

If you want to correct for a listening area, you would need to take multiple measurements within the area, average them together and then come up with a correction filter set that corrects for all the problems within the listening area. This "potentially" can be done with an SMS-1, but it is computationally challenging, time consuming and difficult.

Jay7, your location says you're in Central PA. I'm in Lancaster. I own an SMS-1 and could show you how to use it, if you're interested. Shoot me a PM and we can talk about it.

Craig

Thank you for clarifying. Equalizing an area can be done easily with the SMS-1 by utilizing the Velodyne Mic-5 Kit.
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post #11 of 43
9/8/10 at 5:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Morse View Post

Thank you for clarifying. Equalizing an area can be done easily with the SMS-1 by utilizing the Velodyne Mic-5 Kit.

Wow that's pretty slick. I had NO IDEA this was available for the sms-1. I'll need to read up on this. Thanks for the info Rob.
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post #12 of 43
9/8/10 at 5:40pm
That is cool Rob. Are the mikes different from the one we got with the SMS kit? It seems a shame to have to buy 5 mikes.
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post #13 of 43
9/8/10 at 5:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LF911 View Post

Wow that's pretty slick. I had NO IDEA this was available for the sms-1. I'll need to read up on this. Thanks for the info Rob.

Can you do 2 or 3, or 4 subs at the same time?
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post #14 of 43
9/8/10 at 9:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Morse View Post

Thank you for clarifying. Equalizing an area can be done easily with the SMS-1 by utilizing the Velodyne Mic-5 Kit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Can you do 2 or 3, or 4 subs at the same time?

You can connect up to 3 subs to one SMS-1. You can also daisy-chain multiple SMS-1's for more subs and more filter points. All subs are EQ'd with the same filter set. They should all be run together and the *combined* response EQ'd as one.

Rob, I hadn't seen the 5-mic system in so long, I didn't think it was offered anymore. Just to clarify, it simultaneously measures up to 5 positions, sums the responses and displays the summed response as one curve on the SMS-1 display, correct? So, whether you're running one sub or multiples, whether you're using 1 mic or 5, you get one curve on the screen, and one set of filters for the combined response of all the subs and all the mics, correct?

While not a perfect solution, that would seem to be a much better solution than a single point measurement/EQ system. How much is the 5-mic system with mixer?

Craig
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post #15 of 43
9/9/10 at 5:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You can connect up to 3 subs to one SMS-1. You can also daisy-chain multiple SMS-1's for more subs and more filter points. All subs are EQ'd with the same filter set. They should all be run together and the *combined* response EQ'd as one.

Rob, I hadn't seen the 5-mic system in so long, I didn't think it was offered anymore. Just to clarify, it simultaneously measures up to 5 positions, sums the responses and displays the summed response as one curve on the SMS-1 display, correct? So, whether you're running one sub or multiples, whether you're using 1 mic or 5, you get one curve on the screen, and one set of filters for the combined response of all the subs and all the mics, correct?

While not a perfect solution, that would seem to be a much better solution than a single point measurement/EQ system. How much is the 5-mic system with mixer?

Craig

Craig,
After Rob posted that info, I googled it.....MRSP $799. The cheapest I saw it available was $698.
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post #16 of 43
9/9/10 at 6:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LF911 View Post

Craig,
After Rob posted that info, I googled it.....MRSP $799. The cheapest I saw it available was $698.

Did that include an SMS-1, or was that *just* the 5-mic kit/mixer?
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post #17 of 43
9/9/10 at 6:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Did that include an SMS-1, or was that *just* the 5-mic kit/mixer?

Just the kit...
I think I'm going to pass. I'm not sure it's worth a total investment of over 1300 bucks. Makes the AE-SQ1 look like a steal.
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post #18 of 43
9/9/10 at 6:46am
Craig,
http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messag...81/276086.html
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post #19 of 43
9/9/10 at 7:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You can connect up to 3 subs to one SMS-1. You can also daisy-chain multiple SMS-1's for more subs and more filter points. All subs are EQ'd with the same filter set. They should all be run together and the *combined* response EQ'd as one.

Rob, I hadn't seen the 5-mic system in so long, I didn't think it was offered anymore. Just to clarify, it simultaneously measures up to 5 positions, sums the responses and displays the summed response as one curve on the SMS-1 display, correct? So, whether you're running one sub or multiples, whether you're using 1 mic or 5, you get one curve on the screen, and one set of filters for the combined response of all the subs and all the mics, correct?

While not a perfect solution, that would seem to be a much better solution than a single point measurement/EQ system. How much is the 5-mic system with mixer?

Craig

You are correct, there is only one curve. The mic-5 simply takes the average over an area. The MSRP for the Mic-5 is $799. You don't see much about it because of the price compared to the cost of the SMS-1 itself. Most purchasers of the Mic-5 tend to be installers that are setting up DD subs and SMS-1s regularly.
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post #20 of 43
7/10/12 at 6:23pm
Just bought a SMS-1 and been messing around with it. I have read the Outlaw guide and was very helpful. I am no pro just a little above avarage Joe when comes to home theater.

Here is my set up:
Pioneer SC-55, ran MCCAC by using the "Official" MCCAC thread.
SVS PB12-Plus, volume set just under halfway, about 10 feet from the sweet spot, placed in the back left corner
DefTech SuperCube 2000, volume set just under halfway, about 12 feet from the sweet spot, placed in the front right corner
I do have room treatments but no bass traps

The MCCAC set my sub setting to -8.5 but I moved it to 0 before I ran the SMS-1.

Then I ran the SMS-1 and did a manual eq. I turned off the crossover on the SMS-1 and using the SC-55 at 80hz.

I have attached a picture of my curve. How do I get the 100 and ups to even out? Any other advise is more than welcome as I am sure it is all wrong. tongue.gif
448
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post #21 of 43
7/10/12 at 7:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LF911 View Post


Just the kit...


I think I'm going to pass. I'm not sure it's worth a total investment of over 1300 bucks. Makes the AE-SQ1 look like a steal.

I use the Anti Mode Dual Core 2.0 http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core.shtml with my Pioneer SC-57 in my living room setup. No messing around and fully automatic. For my dedicated HT room, I have the Denon 4311ci with Audyssey XT32 and it handles all speakers and suboofers.
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post #22 of 43
7/11/12 at 6:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigham16 View Post

Just bought a SMS-1 and been messing around with it. I have read the Outlaw guide and was very helpful. I am no pro just a little above avarage Joe when comes to home theater.
Here is my set up:
Pioneer SC-55, ran MCCAC by using the "Official" MCCAC thread.
SVS PB12-Plus, volume set just under halfway, about 10 feet from the sweet spot, placed in the back left corner
DefTech SuperCube 2000, volume set just under halfway, about 12 feet from the sweet spot, placed in the front right corner
I do have room treatments but no bass traps
The MCCAC set my sub setting to -8.5 but I moved it to 0 before I ran the SMS-1.
Then I ran the SMS-1 and did a manual eq. I turned off the crossover on the SMS-1 and using the SC-55 at 80hz.
I have attached a picture of my curve. How do I get the 100 and ups to even out? Any other advise is more than welcome as I am sure it is all wrong. tongue.gif
448
Your sub is set too high. Turn it back down to the MCACC setting. That is the properly calibrated level. 100 Hz is being reproduced by your speakers, which are set lower than the sub.

Here is another thread with more info:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1384393/velodyne-sms-1-problem-please-help

Craig
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post #23 of 43
7/11/12 at 7:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigham16 View Post

Just bought a SMS-1 and been messing around with it. I have read the Outlaw guide and was very helpful. I am no pro just a little above avarage Joe when comes to home theater.

Here is my set up:
Pioneer SC-55, ran MCCAC by using the "Official" MCCAC thread.
SVS PB12-Plus, volume set just under halfway, about 10 feet from the sweet spot, placed in the back left corner
DefTech SuperCube 2000, volume set just under halfway, about 12 feet from the sweet spot, placed in the front right corner
I do have room treatments but no bass traps

The MCCAC set my sub setting to -8.5 but I moved it to 0 before I ran the SMS-1.

Then I ran the SMS-1 and did a manual eq. I turned off the crossover on the SMS-1 and using the SC-55 at 80hz.

I have attached a picture of my curve. How do I get the 100 and ups to even out? Any other advise is more than welcome as I am sure it is all wrong. tongue.gif
448

I'm going to guess you're running bookshelf speakers. What is your room size? The pio has it set low for what I would expect to see at your subs lvls.

A spl meter will go along way to help out in your basic setting up. Turning the gain up on both subs to half is pointless unless you know what each sub is doing.
You need to get the pio to show the subs at near zero. You need to either level match or gain match the subs before doing anything else. Forget doing it by ear, get a spl meter.
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post #24 of 43
7/11/12 at 7:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Your sub is set too high. Turn it back down to the MCACC setting. That is the properly calibrated level. 100 Hz is being reproduced by your speakers, which are set lower than the sub.
Here is another thread with more info:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1384393/velodyne-sms-1-problem-please-help
Craig

Thank you Craig. I will adjust it back down to the MCACC settings or try to cal the sub in the MCACC to 0.

Edit: Craig thank you for the link. I will try it tonight and post results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

I'm going to guess you're running bookshelf speakers. What is your room size? The pio has it set low for what I would expect to see at your subs lvls.
A spl meter will go along way to help out in your basic setting up. Turning the gain up on both subs to half is pointless unless you know what each sub is doing.
You need to get the pio to show the subs at near zero. You need to either level match or gain match the subs before doing anything else. Forget doing it by ear, get a spl meter.

Actually I have DefTech 7002's for my mains and the 2500 as my center. My room is 18' x 13' with 10' ceilings. I do have a SPL meter. Please explain "You need to either level match or gain match the subs" . What does the SPL meter need to read for the subs to be calibrated? I have my speakers set to 75dbs. Thank you for the help....still learning.

Edit: Just figured out your "You need to either level or gain match the subs". Thanks.
Edited by Bigham16 - 7/11/12 at 8:40am
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post #25 of 43
7/11/12 at 6:53pm
Craig, if you are around. I set my subs to be -3db in the MCACC and they would bounce between 75db to 78db on my SPL meter. Reran the SMS-1 and tried to dial in a "flatter" line. Getting Closer? I have DefTech BP7002 and cannot seem to get the "100" to raise any. Does this effect anything? Thanks for your help again. Oh, any other feedback is welcome.

PS: my SC-55 volume is around -17 when I run my tests. Is there a correct volume for the SC?

448
448
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post #26 of 43
7/11/12 at 7:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigham16 View Post

Craig, if you are around. I set my subs to be -3db in the MCACC and they would bounce between 75db to 78db on my SPL meter. Reran the SMS-1 and tried to dial in a "flatter" line. Getting Closer? I have DefTech BP7002 and cannot seem to get the "100" to raise any. Does this effect anything? Thanks for your help again. Oh, any other feedback is welcome.
PS: my SC-55 volume is around -17 when I run my tests. Is there a correct volume for the SC?

What is the crossover for the mains? 80 Hz or 100 Hz?

It looks like you still have the sub too loud. The SMS-1 volume is at 31. Turn it down to somewhere around 20, and then turn the SC-55's volume up.

Craig
Edited by craig john - 7/11/12 at 7:52pm
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post #27 of 43
7/11/12 at 7:35pm
The crossover is set to 80. Should I set it to 100?

I will try turning down the SMS and turn up the SC and let you know. Thanks again.
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post #28 of 43
7/11/12 at 7:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigham16 View Post

The crossover is set to 80. Should I set it to 100?
I will try turning down the SMS and turn up the SC and let you know. Thanks again.

You have an EQ band set at 100 Hz. With an 80 Hz crossover, that band will have very little, if any, impact. The SMS-1 can only EQ the sub, not the speakers. Try moving that band down into the sub-80 Hz range to make it useful. Also, it doesn't look like you have changed any center frequencies of any of the bands. You have pretty good subwoofer response, but you may be able to improve it with some more precise settings of the center frequencies.

Craig
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post #29 of 43
7/11/12 at 7:58pm
Trying to learn as I go. What do you mean by "center frequencies". Really do value your help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You have an EQ band set at 100 Hz. With an 80 Hz crossover, that band will have very little, if any, impact. The SMS-1 can only EQ the sub, not the speakers. Try moving that band down into the sub-80 Hz range to make it useful. Also, it doesn't look like you have changed any center frequencies of any of the bands. You have pretty good subwoofer response, but you may be able to improve it with some more precise settings of the center frequencies.
Craig
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post #30 of 43
7/12/12 at 6:57am
Craig (or anyone else), sense my sub's low freq is 20hz and I have the receiver crossover set to 80hz. Then all I need to focus on is in between those ranges? Or not?
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