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LED Longevity Overrated?

post #1 of 81
Thread Starter 
Like many on this forum, I have been waiting for LED projectors to hit the light output and cost levels that will make them a no brainer purchase, thereby avoiding most of the issues (replacement, dimming, recalibration) of lamp-based projectors. I was therefore a bit disturbed to see a short article today in Lawday regarding an FTC lawsuit against one of the major producers of LED lighting (house lighting, not projector lighting) asserting that, despite a stated lifetime of 30,000 hours, the LED bulbs are losing 80% of their brightness within 1,000 hours. The FTC suit also claims the company was vastly overstating the light output of their LED bulbs (big surprise there!).

The relevant language from the article is: "The FTC is alleging that American LED manufacturer, Lights of America, is overstating the effectiveness of LED lightbulbs (light-emitting diode bulbs). The consumer protection agency said it used Lights of America's own testing data to prove that its claims were overblown. Light intensity is measured in lumens, and one bulb promoted as producing 90 lumens allegedly tested at 43 lumens, less than half what the company claimed. The company also claimed that one of its lantern bulbs could replace a 40-watt incandescent bulb, which produces about 400 lumens. The LED bulb allegedly only produced 74 lumens, well short of what was promised. Lights of America also claimed in its promotional materials that its LED bulbs would last 30,000 hours. But independent testing showed the bulbs lost 80 per cent of their light output after 1,000 hours."

While I know (or at least I hope) that these "made as cheaply as possible" white home lighting LEDs are not at all the same thing as far more expensive projector LEDs, it does give me pause that LED technology may not be as "immune" to degradation as the marketing departments have led us to believe.
post #2 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRF88 View Post

Like many on this forum, I have been waiting for LED projectors to hit the light output and cost levels that will make them a no brainer purchase, thereby avoiding most of the issues (replacement, dimming, recalibration) of lamp-based projectors. I was therefore a bit disturbed to see a short article today in Lawday regarding an FTC lawsuit against one of the major producers of LED lighting (house lighting, not projector lighting) asserting that, despite a stated lifetime of 30,000 hours, the LED bulbs are losing 80% of their brightness within 1,000 hours. The FTC suit also claims the company was vastly overstating the light output of their LED bulbs (big surprise there!).

The relevant language from the article is: "The FTC is alleging that American LED manufacturer, Lights of America, is overstating the effectiveness of LED lightbulbs (light-emitting diode bulbs). The consumer protection agency said it used Lights of America's own testing data to prove that its claims were overblown. Light intensity is measured in lumens, and one bulb promoted as producing 90 lumens allegedly tested at 43 lumens, less than half what the company claimed. The company also claimed that one of its lantern bulbs could replace a 40-watt incandescent bulb, which produces about 400 lumens. The LED bulb allegedly only produced 74 lumens, well short of what was promised. Lights of America also claimed in its promotional materials that its LED bulbs would last 30,000 hours. But independent testing showed the bulbs lost 80 per cent of their light output after 1,000 hours."

While I know (or at least I hope) that these "made as cheaply as possible" white home lighting LEDs are not at all the same thing as far more expensive projector LEDs, it does give me pause that LED technology may not be as "immune" to degradation as the marketing departments have led us to believe.

I suspect there will be issues. I am seeing huge reductions in light output for LED flat panel sets after only a year of use. I suspect it all relates to how hard they are driven. A few years ago I saw a prototype LED projector light source outside of the machine. It was much brighter than my LED flashlight. I personally would not buy one of these until there is some hard data on LED lamp life.
post #3 of 81
Thread Starter 
Unfortunately, it is safe to say that LEDs in a projector are likely to be driven hard, usually at the outer edge of their operating parameters from a light output perspective. Previously, I assumed that would just lead to a shorter life for the LED, but it looks like dimming may also be a byproduct of driving it hard.
post #4 of 81
One of my clients designed fiber optic transmission gear. He said dimming of LED was one reason laser was better.
post #5 of 81
30,000 hrs will undoubtedly be accompanied by some decline in output. The question is how much? If I can get 20,000 hrs and be down no more than 15% I'd be very satisfied. It sure beats replacing an RS25/35 lamp every 500 hrs in order to stay above 50%.
post #6 of 81
I have seen a 75% reduction on LED flat panels after a few thousand hours.
post #7 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

One of my clients designed fiber optic transmission gear. He said dimming of LED was one reason laser was better.

The specs I have seen on lasers tout only a 10,000 hour life.
post #8 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I have seen a 75% reduction on LED flat panels after a few thousand hours.



wow, bad news for sure
post #9 of 81
Yep. Panels that once output over 100 fL struggel to put out 40 fL a year later. I suspect the internal temperature of the LED will determine the rate of decay.
post #10 of 81
I was thinking along these lines the other day when I saw a car with an array of LEDs as a third brake light and 2 or 3 of them were burned out. Sure, they're rated for long life, but this is just an average. Some of them are gonna go earlier than others. Is there some type of mechanism to tell if any of the LEDs in a projector or TV has burned out? I would assume this would affect not only brightness, but also uniformity. I haven't read much on LEDs in displays, but this seems like it would be a major problem. At least with bulbs and CCFLs, it's either on or not.

Rob
post #11 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

30,000 hrs will undoubtedly be accompanied by some decline in output. The question is how much? If I can get 20,000 hrs and be down no more than 15% I'd be very satisfied. It sure beats replacing an RS25/35 lamp every 500 hrs in order to stay above 50%.

Pete,
I'm glad you chimed in, as I saw in the ultra projector area that you've owned a Sim2 Mico 50 for about 9 months. Have you taken any measurements of the output during this time?
post #12 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I have seen a 75% reduction on LED flat panels after a few thousand hours.

Few thousand hours is a lot. But I would take 2,000 hours if a) the LED lamp assembly were replaceable, and b) color shift was non-existent over the 2K hours.
post #13 of 81
Please note that the FTC action is being taken against one particular LED manufacturer (Lights of America, which I don't think is being used in FP LEDs), the question is how reliable is the data being provided by the other manufacturers.
post #14 of 81
The projectorcentral guys have done some measurements on the Casio projectors that have a combination of laser, phosphor, and LED. They've posted some comments here (with some highlights below):

http://www.projectorcentral.com/casi...projectors.htm
Quote:


Oddly enough, the solid state light sources used in the Casio Hybrid engine do not get brighter as they warm up. To the contrary, they diminish in brightness by about 10% as they warm up to their stabilized operating temperature. Thus, the brightest possible lumen readings on these units are obtained during the first minute of operation, immediately after powering them on. Casio states that they measure brightness within the first minute of operation to determine whether the unit is meeting spec.
...
In addition to these factors, Casio informed us last week that the ambient temperature in the room will affect lumen output.
...
Therefore, we subjected two of our A130 samples to extended runtimes, turning them on and allowing them to run 24/7 until they accumulated 200 hours. The result is that both units lost about 25% of their maximum light potential during the 200 hour test.
...
The lumen degradation in the extended use test was due to a diminishing of the intensity of green and blue, the two colors produced by the laser source. Red, which comes from an LED, stayed comparatively stable.

--Darin
post #15 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18628239 View Post

Few thousand hours is a lot. But I would take 2,000 hours if a) the LED lamp assembly were replaceable, and b) color shift was non-existent over the 2K hours.

If lumens fall it is likely the individual RGB LEDs will not fall at the same rate. This will cause a color shift unless compensated for in the device.
post #16 of 81
Personally the lifespan benefits of LEDs are only the icing on the cake for me. What interests me about LED projectors is their raw picture quality. Everything I read they are something to behold, kind of like 3-chip DLPs were/are.

The idea that I won't have to recalibrate it periodically, or that I won't have to replace a lamp every 12-18 months are just nice-to-haves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robbyc30 View Post

Is there some type of mechanism to tell if any of the LEDs in a projector or TV has burned out?

Projectors only have 3 LEDs, Red, Green and Blue, I think you'll know if one's out
post #17 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knd View Post

Pete,
I'm glad you chimed in, as I saw in the ultra projector area that you've owned a Sim2 Mico 50 for about 9 months. Have you taken any measurements of the output during this time?

I haven't taken any measurements, but I can say that I've detected no visible decline in output over the first 500 hours I've owned it.
post #18 of 81
Brightness loss in lamps is easy to understand - they have consumable electrodes which deposit electrode material on the inside of the glass envelope, and change the shape of the beam and reflector effectiveness.

But what happens in LED's?

After all, they're solid state and I don't believe power transistors deliver less output over time.
post #19 of 81
Another thing I thought was interesting from the projectorcentral article I linked to above:
Quote:


We also noticed that the power consumption on the brighter of the two units diminished in direct correlation with light output. The unit that originally measured 1630 lumens was drawing 177 watts at that brightness level. At the end of the test it was delivering only 1216 lumens, but power consumption had dropped to 134 watts, a drop of 25%.

Sounds like that is likely the laser though.

--Darin
post #20 of 81
It would truly be a bummer if LED dims over time in this way. I think I would prefer a lamp over LED if this is true.
post #21 of 81
I owuld think it would have a lot to do with how the actual LED was manufactured and at what toloerance it was "supposed" to be driven at. If you have an LED that is made to support 500 lumens, but can be over driven to supply 750 lumens, I can see how that would decrease the longevity and luminousity of the LED over time. It is the inital WOW factor that is going to sell these PJ's in the first place. Most of us here are enthusiasts and very impulsive. We want the newest, coolest thing to hit the market. It is only later on down the line that we will truly have to worry about such issues.

Just my opinion of course. I would LOVE a Vango pj. But now I wonder how much it would cost to replace such an LED if it were to dom or burn out over time...
post #22 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrunr View Post

I
Just my opinion of course. I would LOVE a Vango pj. But now I wonder how much it would cost to replace such an LED if it were to dom or burn out over time...


Has anyone ever said that the LED's are replaceable??
You might be replacing the whole pj
post #23 of 81
1. The claims of manufacturers of "this will replace a 60 watt bulb" were lies when the bulbs were CFL's also. It appears the lies have just gotten worse, and remember that these claims are about the starting position, not the decay over time.

2. The claims of projector manufacturers about the brightness and contrast of their units is often suspect as well, and has been for years, so you should already be used to it.

3. The claims here that LED driven panels are losing lumens over time are a concern to me though. I'd like to find out more about that, since that is definitely one of the reasons I have been following the LED development.

4. LED light is generated in a crystal lattice in solid state. It WILL break down over time. It does in all solid state. The harder you drive it, the quicker it will happen. Given enough time, diamond will turn back into graphite. Not in your lifetime, though.
post #24 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by D_B_0673 View Post

Has anyone ever said that the LED's are replaceable??
You might be replacing the whole pj

I don't know about the Vango, but I inquired about this in the Sim Mico thread. The answer was that they are replaceable but not by the end user. The projector had to be sent back to the service center.
post #25 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

If lumens fall it is likely the individual RGB LEDs will not fall at the same rate. This will cause a color shift unless compensated for in the device.

I wasn't suggesting LED's wouldn't or couldn't change in output in asynchronous form, but rather the point at which they do will probably be a lot longer on the hours clock than with convention lamps.
post #26 of 81
Lots of good points and concerns in this thread.
At this time as much as LED claims are being labeled speculation due to lack off proof then so is this thread. We will only find out for sure with time.

Those purchasing an LED projector will likely still find themselves upgrading within 5 or more years ( twice as long as lamp driven projectors ) at which time the projector like a diesel engine may just be starting its brake-in period.

With current digital projection technology we do not get the chance to test longevity of the other electronic components because of costly routine lamp replacement convincing us to look forward to every next generation. For the first time the lamp should not be the first component to fail with LED projectors. The rest of the projector now has to survive long term.

I have a proto LED Ive been running now for over two years. So far no light loss or color shift. No reason for me to get rid of this thing I run it day and night without any hick-ups so far...knock on wood. I love the fact I can start it up or shut it down without any ill effect as well as leaving it running when going to dinner.
In the case of the Vango ( unlike the delta )it is liquid cooled and very quiet. Very little heat to hurt the rest of the components. I hope we see others jump on the same bandwagon.

That day "will" come soon when all projection technologies will enjoy the benefits of LED.
post #27 of 81
We actually put 10,000+ hours on a few pocket LED projectors a couple of years ago when the first 20-40 lumen models came out.

Of the 4 models we tested, we saw 11%, 23% and 26% brightness drops on the 3 that ran the whole test, but a 43% reduction on a newer 80 or 100 lumen rated model that had run for under half the test time.

I think these projectors can easily reach the lamp life goals touted for LED. The question is whether the mfr company succumbs to the lure of marketing oneupsmanship and drives them just a little too hard for responsible thermal management.

So I think you will probably see it break down along similar lines to how performance claims do for current models. The more conservative brands whose specs actually match their marketing will probably engineer their units to meet lamp life specs that we are waiting for. The move-as-many-units as soon as they can types will push things and you'll see much earlier failures.

Laser is another story. Laser systems can be engineered for constant brightness, they just suck more power as they age until the point where it makes sense to swap the lasers.
post #28 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon B View Post

Laser is another story. Laser systems can be engineered for constant brightness, they just suck more power as they age until the point where it makes sense to swap the lasers.

Is the conventional wisdom still that laser-based illumination is the 'natural' road ahead for lcos pj's, analogous to led being so for dlp? If so, it appears that led/dlp is at least one year ahead of laser/lcos. But maybe worth the wait?
post #29 of 81
My Benq W5000 hasn't lost any of it's light output after over 1100 hours of bulb usage. It has a sealed light path so I don't have to deal with dust blobs. It has been an exemplary reliable piece of AV equipment. I'm naturally prone to upgraditis and I can honestly say that LED backlights and 3D hold no sway over me. DLP projectors for life!
post #30 of 81
No light loss after 1100 hours means you haven't measured or your bulb is magical.
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