The Official Integra DHC-80.2 Pre/Pro Thread - Page 53

Got it, thx. So setting a video source to 4:4:4 should avoid the problem then? So far I have the Oppo in the Auto mode, which probably sets itself to 4:4:4 but who knows.

And unrelated to this, setting the monitor out to "Through" avoids any video processing by the 80.2, including the Film Mode processing, etc? Thanks for the help.

RGB Video in the Oppo gave me the best Chroma results via Spears and Munsil....that was with a Panny AE4000 and the Integra 9.9. I haven't checked with the new 80.2. But also, it can be how the display handles incoming signals, not necessarily the AVR. The only way to get it right is just run the patterns and check for loss of detail. Takes 10 mins.

Is there any advantage setting monitor out to through?
PS3 to 80.2 HDMI

monitor out to "Through" avoids any video processing by the 80.2, including the Film Mode processing, etc

I use a Power Plant and a Wyred4sound amp with my DHC-80.2, and there is only one scenario where I have encountered a loud pop, and I don't believe either the Power Plant or the Wyred4sound amp are a factor. When I have HDMI CEC enabled for muliple devices powering up or down the display while playing multi-channel audio causes an HDMI renegotation. There is one sequence which causes a loud pop. If you have not looked at HDMI CEC as a possible contributor to pops, that would be an avenue worth pursuing.

HDMI CEC is totally disabled in my system. There are other people here who have Proceed amps and Joe is the only one with a problem... there is just some combination of factors in my system that leads to these little clicks through my speakers.

Me too...I much prefer a universal remote with macros!

Hi Mark,

Kris Deering has done reviews for Home Theater Magazine of the two previous Integra preamplifier models. In both cases the preamplifiers passed the chroma and Luma resolution tests for both digital and analog video. It seems unlikely that the current design would start having problems.

Larry

I can only tell you about my tests and the results were unequivocal. I confirmed this error using both an Oppo and a DVDO Duo. Maybe Kris only checked 444 or RGB which are correct - 422 has an error. This is not new to this generation - another Senior Editor at Secrets observed the same thing with the Integra 80.1. We are going to be building this testing into all of our new receiver reviews.

Feel free to check for yourself - the test is exceptionally easy. You can PM me if you'd like for the testing protocol.

Thx guys.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the offer, but I don't have the 80.2, although I am seriously considering upgrading to it's Onkyo sister device at some point in time.

I'm not knowledgeable in this area so please forgive a few basic questions.

Assuming you are correct about this issue, how serious is it? That is, is it likely that a casual viewer would detect a problem when watching normal content, versus test patterns?

Regarding your caution to use YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB, how is that accomplished? Is this done in the source devices? I have a Panasonic DMP-BD55 Blu-ray player, a Toshiba HD-XA2 HD-DVD player and a TiVo HD DVR. Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't seen references to these settings in their respective manuals. Likewise, in the Integra DHC-80.2 manual I haven't seen a reference to these settings.

Can you please educate me a bit on this point?

For those owners of the DHC-80.2 who are concerned about this issue, perhaps it would be helpful if you posted the testing protocol for them in this thread.

Thanks very much.

Larry

Selecting the HDMI output format in the BR player (4:2:2, 4:4:4, RGB video, etc) that yields the best chroma pattern with Spears and Munsil is probably more of a mental thing. Trying to get the most of your equipment. All these little things add up.....in your head at least. I doubt a person could discern a real world difference unless they were trained to look for it with certain paused scenes with their nose close to the screen. Having said that, I check the pattern and will continue to do so. The mind is a powerful thing, especially in AV.

Hi Guys,

At the risk of stating the obvious, we seem to have a difference of opinion on this issue.

Larry

Tonight I will throw in the Spears and Musil disc and run the chroma pattern. I remember what the Integra 9.9 looked like. I will report back.

Asa a side note, I love the SQ and functionality of this Processor. The little clicks are something you get used to real quick, and it reminds me everything is working as it should . Also, never get them with content, so it has become an official non issue for me.

P.S. setting the BR player to LPCM takes away most clicks. I keep it on bitsream (mental again)

Hi,

Thanks for the response, but I'm afraid I don't follow how that answers my question.

I have my Blu-ray player and HD DVD player connected to an Onkyo PR-SC886 via HDMI and, due to HDMI handshaking issues, I have my TiVo HD DVR connected to the 886 via component video.

Assuming for the sake of discussion that Mark is correct, and that this family of Onkyo/Integra devices has a problem with 4:2:2, how do I go about ensuring that I am selecting 4:4:4 or RGB video in these source devices to avoid the problem?

Thanks.

Larry

in the BR player. Set the avr to through.

Larry - I'm sorry you seem so doubtful - as I posted above, the results were unequivocal. I went through Kris's review and I could not find anywhere where these tests were cited. Whether or not you can see this during content is a different discussion - the 80.2 does not pass 4:2:2 correctly - end of story. Throw up the pattern, bypass the 80.2 and switch from RGB to 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 (easy on an Oppo or the Duo) and the pattern looks identical on an RS-25. Pass the signal through the 80.2, set to through and you are clearly losing the fine chroma detail.

Yes - this all starts at the source. Every Blu-ray player I've worked with has given the user some sort of control over what color space is outputted. I've looked through the manual for your Panasonic and it doesn't seem to have the same sort of flexibility - at least its not immediately obvious. It does let you choose video levels for RGB suggesting that you can get it to pass RGB.

I used to own an HD-XA2 and as I recall, all HD-DVD players forced RGB so you are fine there. You just have to assure that both the display and player are in agreement on the levels (PC v Video).

I have no analog video connected to my Integra so I can't comment on how it handles component video and how color space conversions are handled. My old Denon used to let you select which color space analog got converted to, but a quick read of the Integra manual showed no such flexibility - it might be there, I just haven't had a reason to investigate.

The Integra WILL tell you what you are getting in terms of color space - at least for HDMI. Under the "Home" menu you select info as I recall and it'll tell you whether you are getting RGB, YCbCr (4:4:4) or YCbCr (4:2:2).

For this test I use the Spears and Munsil disc.

1 - Call up the Luma Multiburst panel
- Look at the fine, 1 pixel patterns on the right column, 2nd row. You should see alternating lines of Color (Blue and Red)
Look at the pattern on the Spears and Munsil website - this is what it should look like
http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/artic...epatterns.html
When you get a failure you'll see something that looks like this:


2 - Call up the Luma Zone Plate
-You should see color going all the way out to the edge of the picture.

Also read here:
http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/artic...olorspace.html

I was not playing with the gamma at the same time, I was focusing on the end points. It's certainly possible that the gamma would require tweaking afterwards, but the grey scale was definitely better post-adjustment than pre-.

Hi Mark,

My apologies if my posting gave you the impression I was incredulous. I assure you no insult was intended. I have been following most of the Onkyo and Integra prepro forums for some time now and I have to admit that I do not recall anyone mentioning this issue. In addition, obviously I follow and respect Kris' reviews.

In answer to your question about where Kris cites the tests:

Integra DHC-80.1 Surround Processor HT Labs Measures

Scroll down to the bottom of the page and check the table with the test results.

Integra DHC-9.9 Surround Processor Page 2

Scroll down to the bottom of the page and check the table with the test results.


To put this in perspective, is it fair to say that this issue doesn't come up often since many players are defaulting to RGB, and even in those situations where the source is sending 4:2:2 it is difficult to see this defect with normal content?

Thanks for taking the time to explain these basics.

Larry

Hi Mark,

From the Technical Notes it says:


In your example of a failure I don't see an even gray shade. Is the gray image below the blue and red lines and matches the background color?

Thanks.

Larry

Just wondering if anybody is scaling a cable signal with the 80.2

I have Comcast, and have the box set to output native channel format. Most of the channels are 1080i, and some are 720p. I have the input on the 80.2 set to video "custom" with the output resolution of 1080p/24. I have "film" mode selected.

When viewing 780p channels, I hit "home", go to "video", "info" to view the source and output. The source indicates its 720P, and the output is 720P (it changes from 24 to 30 bit though). This is the same for 1080i sources, etc.. No matter what output resolution I have the 80.2 set on, it always displays the same input/output except for the 24 to 30 bit deal.

Any idea on what settings I have wrong?

**I have not tried scaling any blu-rays yet, I have that input on pass through).**
Thanks

The description on the website is actually describing another kind of problem. What you should see is alternating blue and red lines...like the figure on their website. What you actually see using 4:2:2 is black.

Kris's data doesn't really tell us anything about the test that was done. As we've hashed out here, digital can mean lots of different things. I don't know if that is RGB or YCbCr...I don't know if it is 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. The error I am reporting is glaringly obvious using the test pattern for 4:2:2 and is absent using the test pattern at 4:4:4 or RGB.

What is sent by the player depends on its capabilities as well as the EDID information that the display is sending back to the player. I have no idea what percentage of displays call for RGB. The JVC RS-25, for example, does not. I think it is probably fair to say that the error here isn't obvious in normal viewing, but these type of analysis are standard...for me anyway.

I always use YCbCr as per recommendation from Jim Peterson at Lumagen: (Paraphrase) If the display has a color or tint control, then there is a step in YCbCr. By sending RGB, the display converts to RGB to YCbCr and back to RGB to drive the panel. To avoid the additional conversion you should send YCbCr when possible.

This is the exact pattern I used to determine RGB video was the best with the 9.9, Oppo, and ae4000. Tonight I confirmed the same results using the 80.2 and the same for the other equipment.

I do not know if it is an issue with the Integra not handling 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 correctly OR if it an issue with the Panny AE4000. BTW, for the test with the 80.2 tonight I had through selected so the Integra shouldn't be touching the video signal. That would lead me to believe it may be a projector issue. When I selected 1080p instead of through I saw no change in the patterns. I even played around with ISF day picture mode, cinema picture mode, etc. And no degredation of the chroma pattern.

As you stated earlier, if the Integra is the culprit....then it is a global issue that selecting through doesn't eradicate.

Either way, I am glad I can select RGB video in my Oppo.

We have confirmed this error on both the 80.1 and 80.2 using different displays. Yes - the display will certainly have an impact on which is optimal...the Panasonic may handle RGB better than YCbCr...that's why we do these tests...but what I do know is that the results discussed here are display neutral. When I bypass the integra, my display handles all of the patterns no problem...when I add the integra, 4:2:2 fails. RGB and 4:4:4 are indistinguishable.

I'm retracting my post pending further investigation. Some things Integra Technical Support is telling just doesn't make sense.

1. So if a DVD player/blu ray can output RGB or 4:4:4 what is the actual impact on the user in terms of video quality?

2.What devices do not output 4:4:4 or RGB but only can output 4:2:2, e.g. what is the output of a Direct TV HR20?

Joel

My Integra arrived today!!!! I spent the afternoon rearranging everything. Couple things I noticed. Switching from RCA preouts to XLR got rid of the buzzing. The relay clicks are more frequent than my old Pioneer 1018 but they are half as loud. It is a little bit slower at locking onto a signal, probably 1-2 seconds slower. The sound quality seems to be cleaner and more articulate. The mid-bass and bass after Audyssey seems to be better controlled. The center channel seems to be a touch veiled compared to my old pioneer. Surrounds seem to have better separation and are more dynamic. I have not really noticed a sound-stage difference. I intend to run audyssey a few more times and tweak everything around. All in all I like the unit, I am not sure if I am a fan of audyssey, just yet.

For reference my gear includes; 4 Behringer ep4000 amps, 2 Danley DTS-10 (subs), 2 Danley SM-60 (Mains), 1 Danley sh-100 (center), 2 Danley sh-micros (surrounds), and a crappy room.

Forin