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The Official Integra DHC-80.2 Pre/Pro Thread - Page 114

post #3391 of 3728
1/31/12 at 6:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHifi View Post

...if Audyssey is supposed to correct all the variations from the "ideal" curve, giving us as realistic a frequency response as possible, when we change the Audyssey results by making the position speakers cut off at varying LF levels and it creates a completely different frequency response we negate the need for Audyssey completely. The resulting response is something arbitrary. It is no longer tied to the Audyssey curve in the lower frequency regions. Maybe we should just tune the low end by ear.

I don't understand that statement but allow me to provide some info that may clarify things for you. Audyssey attempts to provide as flat a FR as possible. The actual resultant curve depends on many variables. Prominant amongst those are the severity of acoustic problems of your room, speaker/sub capability, speaker/sub placement and Audyssey's finite DSP limitations.

In tweaking your system you should not lower the xover from what your processor determined, as Audyssey does not filter below the -3dB point. But you can chose any higher xover that you prefer. If speakers are set to large, those choices begin with 40Hz. You can listen and measure 40, 60, 80 and see if there's much difference and what you prefer. In all cases Audyssey is working as it should. With XT the SOP was to raise all xovers to 80. But with XT 32, there's no inherent reason irt Auydyssey itself to chose one xover over another. Any SQ difference between them is due to the room/gear factors I referred to earlier.
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post #3392 of 3728
1/31/12 at 6:28am
I use an Integra 9.9. It has XT I believe. Whatever it has, the LF SQ is so different when I reassign low frequencies to the sub, that it makes me wonder whether the ideal curve is even in pay any more. That is all i am saying. BTW, I prefer routing the extreme LF's to the sub. Bass is tighter.
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post #3393 of 3728
1/31/12 at 6:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHifi View Post

Thanks for your reply Keith. My point is that if Audyssey is supposed to correct all the variations from the "ideal" curve, giving us as realistic a frequency response as possible, when we change the Audyssey results by making the position speakers cut off at varying LF levels and it creates a completely different frequency response we negate the need for Audyssey completely. The resulting response is something arbitrary. It is no longer tied to the Audyssey curve in the lower frequency regions. Maybe we should just tune the low end by ear.

I use VMPS STIII's for LF and RF and a smaller VMPS for my center front. In the Sides I use Dynaco A25's. The rears are EV Sentry III's. My sub is a Velo F1800

I think you're misunderstanding how Audyssey works. During measurement Audyssey pings each speaker and determines its frequency response at its -3dB point.* Audyssey then goes on to build a set of correction filters for the speaker taking account of its interaction with the room itself. By changing the set crossovers post-measurement, you do not undo the filters. All that you do is allow the sub (in the case in point) to give the best performance it is capable of, using the determined filters. IOW, the filters are there even if you are not 'using' them IYSWIM by that.

If your AVR set the XO initially to 40Hz, then the mains are handling everything down to 40Hz and the sub takes over from there. If you subsequently change the XO from 40 to 80Hz, then the mains now only handle the frequencies down to 80Hz and the sub handles all frequencies below 80Hz, using the previously determined filter calculations. In this example you have now done two things that can have an effect on the final sound: you have removed the heavy lifting from the mains, which they were almost certainly struggling to handle**, and this will allow them to perform better in their mid and upper frequency range too - and you have allowed the sub to do what it has been designed to do, namely reproducing very low frequencies at high SPLs with minimal distortion. For those reasons I would expect the sound to change for the better giving you better mids and highs and better (deeper, more controlled etc) bass. But nowhere have you negated or invalidated what Audyssey has done during its measurement/calibration process and the resulting response is far from "arbitrary" as I hope I have explained.

* Note that Audyssey does not set the crossover. This is set by the AVR. Some manufacturers may determine that a speaker that can go to 40Hz -3dB is Large, others may make that determination at 60Hz or 80Hz.

** Even large speakers are going to struggle to produce reference level bass. The manufacturer may quote a FR of something like 20Hz-22kHz but look how many dB that 20Hz response is down. A decent sub will deliver 20Hz bass to possibly 200Hz more or less flat. Your Velodyne is purpose-built and designed to reproduce deep bass at high SPLs. It has an *18 inch* driver and a massive amp for that purpose. Compare that with the main speakers. And that is without mentioning that the sub is positioned for optimum bass whereas the mains are positioned for optimum imaging.
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post #3394 of 3728
1/31/12 at 7:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I think you're misunderstanding how Audyssey works. During measurement Audyssey pings each speaker and determines its frequency response at its -3dB point.* Audyssey then goes on to build a set of correction filters for the speaker taking account of its interaction with the room itself. By changing the set crossovers post-measurement, you do not undo the filters. All that you do is allow the sub (in the case in point) to give the best performance it is capable of, using the determined filters. IOW, the filters are there even if you are not 'using' them IYSWIM by that.

If your AVR set the XO initially to 40Hz, then the mains are handling everything down to 40Hz and the sub takes over from there. If you subsequently change the XO from 40 to 80Hz, then the mains now only handle the frequencies down to 80Hz and the sub handles all frequencies below 80Hz, using the previously determined filter calculations. In this example you have now done two things that can have an effect on the final sound: you have removed the heavy lifting from the mains, which they were almost certainly struggling to handle**, and this will allow them to perform better in their mid and upper frequency range too - and you have allowed the sub to do what it has been designed to do, namely reproducing very low frequencies at high SPLs with minimal distortion. For those reasons I would expect the sound to change for the better giving you better mids and highs and better (deeper, more controlled etc) bass. But nowhere have you negated or invalidated what Audyssey has done during its measurement/calibration process and the resulting response is far from "arbitrary" as I hope I have explained.

* Note that Audyssey does not set the crossover. This is set by the AVR. Some manufacturers may determine that a speaker that can go to 40Hz -3dB is Large, others may make that determination at 60Hz or 80Hz.

** Even large speakers are going to struggle to produce reference level bass. The manufacturer may quote a FR of something like 20Hz-22kHz but look how many dB that 20Hz response is down. A decent sub will deliver 20Hz bass to possibly 200Hz more or less flat. Your Velodyne is purpose-built and designed to reproduce deep bass at high SPLs. It has an *18 inch* driver and a massive amp for that purpose. Compare that with the main speakers. And that is without mentioning that the sub is positioned for optimum bass whereas the mains are positioned for optimum imaging.

Once again I want to thank you for your reply. I know how much time it takes to properly prepare a response. In response to your comment, I do understand how Audyssey works. Audyssey sets my speakers to "FULL" after setup. Mids and highs are beautiful. LF is definitely lacking because of speaker placement and other factors. I thought Audyssey would have boosted the lower frequencies to "equalize" to the ideal curve. While it may have tried, there is no way for me to know how well it succeeded except by listening. The low end is thin after Audyssey. Without Audyssey, the low end is strong. After I switch my cutoffs to 40Hz LF & RF, 60 Hz center, 80 Hz for the side surrounds, and 40 Hz for the large floor standing rear surrounds, the bass returns solidly because it is now reproduced by the sub.

This makes me wonder just how effectively Audyssey is able to compensate for frequency anomalies in the lowest range when the speakers, room placement etc. will not allow Audyssey to correct adequately without switching to the sub. People have complained about thin low ends since the beginning of this thread. Perhaps Sub use for lower frequencies is required and not optional if one is to achieve adequate bass response.
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post #3395 of 3728
1/31/12 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHifi View Post

Kal, I have an observation that I would like you to comment about. After Audyssey sets my very large speakers at Full in all positions, I prefer to let the subwoofer reproduce frequencies below 40Hz, 60Hz and 80Hz depending on which speaker I am setting. The sound is radically different. Which is more "correct"? I prefer the subwoofer's control of flow frequencies but it is a much stronger bass. My side surrounds are bookshelf type Dynaco A 25's that have no wall behind them so one would expect greater low end reinforcement from the floor standing 18" Velo. If Audyssey is doing its job and the corrections are within +/- 5 after the test sounds, why is the sound so different when I use the sub for the individual channel low ends?

The only times when there was a significant change, in my experience, were when one crossover is too high. I would choose the Audyssey-corrected situation with the mains at full range as reference and pay attention to the mids and low mids.
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post #3396 of 3728
1/31/12 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I did that but I will try it again. Thanks.

Anyone have a good email address (or better yet, telephone number) for Integra support? My initial request went to some non-US point and I have received zero response since acknowledgement of my initial email.

Frustrating!

my 80.1 does not fully clear with hard reset either
trims and all stay
Probally something to do with the Audyssey Pro we use
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post #3397 of 3728
1/31/12 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHifi View Post

Thanks for your reply Keith. My point is that if Audyssey is supposed to correct all the variations from the "ideal" curve, giving us as realistic a frequency response as possible, when we change the Audyssey results by making the position speakers cut off at varying LF levels and it creates a completely different frequency response we negate the need for Audyssey completely. The resulting response is something arbitrary. It is no longer tied to the Audyssey curve in the lower frequency regions. Maybe we should just tune the low end by ear.

Or employ some independent measurements to see what is actually going on.
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post #3398 of 3728
1/31/12 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHifi View Post

Once again I want to thank you for your reply. I know how much time it takes to properly prepare a response. In response to your comment, I do understand how Audyssey works. Audyssey sets my speakers to "FULL" after setup. Mids and highs are beautiful. LF is definitely lacking because of speaker placement and other factors. I thought Audyssey would have boosted the lower frequencies to "equalize" to the ideal curve.

Thanks Art. Audyssey can only boost by so much. It is deliberately limited in that way for obvious reasons. It's easy to cut peaks, hard to boost nulls - and can be impossible if a room mode is causing the null.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHifi View Post

While it may have tried, there is no way for me to know how well it succeeded except by listening.

There's measuring. I use an OmniMic - easy to use but a steep learning curve (for me at least).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHifi View Post

The low end is thin after Audyssey. Without Audyssey, the low end is strong.

This is a common complaint and often is a result of a peak that the listener has got used to, being removed. Usually, after a week or two of listening, the new, flat(ter) bass is appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHifi View Post

After I switch my cutoffs to 40Hz LF & RF, 60 Hz center, 80 Hz for the side surrounds, and 40 Hz for the large floor standing rear surrounds, the bass returns solidly because it is now reproduced by the sub.

That's good - it's why you paid so much for that Velodyne

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHifi View Post

This makes me wonder just how effectively Audyssey is able to compensate for frequency anomalies in the lowest range when the speakers, room placement etc. will not allow Audyssey to correct adequately without switching to the sub.

I'm not sure what you mean there. You say it as though switching to the sub is undesirable. Audyssey will get as close to the target curve as the room and the speakers allow - if it has to use the sub to get the bass right, so what? That's what the sub is for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHifi View Post

People have complained about thin low ends since the beginning of this thread. Perhaps Sub use for lower frequencies is required and not optional if one is to achieve adequate bass response.

Audyssey's advice is to always use a sub and always set the speakers to 'small' (via a crossover). Once someone gets used to what truly flat bass sounds like, those complaints melt away.

I notice from a later post that your AVR uses XT. XT is not nearly as good in the bass correction region as XT32. I had an Onkyo 5007 for some time, which also had XT and I ended up buying an SVS AS-EQ1 which effectively gives XT32 correction in an 'add-on' form. Sadly, since XT32 has gained ground in high end AVRs and AVPs, SVS has discontinued the EQ1. If you ever upgrade, make sure you choose a unit with XT32 and you will be amazed at how much better the bass is.
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post #3399 of 3728
1/31/12 at 10:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post

my 80.1 does not fully clear with hard reset either
trims and all stay
Probally something to do with the Audyssey Pro we use

There's something wrong there. Clearly something that is designed to "reset to factory defaults" is not working properly if individual user settings are retained. I don't see why Pro should have a bearing on it - factory defaults are factory defaults. What's the point of the factory default setting if it retains user settings?
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post #3400 of 3728
1/31/12 at 11:10am
I almost bought an Integra 80.3 to replace my 9.9 but was put off by the number of complaints and what i feel is gimmickry with the "height" channels. I've been playing with this stuff since the mid 50's when 2 channels through JBL Free Standing Imperial Horns, an Ampex 2 channel tape deck, pre recorded reel to reel tapes, a Dynaco preamp and a McIntosh 60 watt stereo amp produced some of the most amazing sound I have ever heard. The source material has improved for sure but basic 2 channel reproduction for music is still as close to perfection as I have known. Thank you for the chat today.
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post #3401 of 3728
2/1/12 at 6:17am
Just a note to let you guys know my faith in Integra *might* get restored. I am told by the repair shop that, since the HDMI board is on such a rediculously long backorder, Integra may just be sending me a new unit. I will post back on here if they do.
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post #3402 of 3728
2/1/12 at 8:01am
Onkyo is a very good company. They are also dealing with very large numbers, and problems arise that, at least initially, swamp their resources. I had the front panel IDE cable/connector bug. I was not happy, but I dealt with it. And so did they; I had my unit back in perfect working order in under two weeks.
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post #3403 of 3728
2/1/12 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHifi View Post

I almost bought an Integra 80.3 to replace my 9.9 but was put off by the number of complaints and what i feel is gimmickry with the "height" channels. I've been playing with this stuff since the mid 50's when 2 channels through JBL Free Standing Imperial Horns, an Ampex 2 channel tape deck, pre recorded reel to reel tapes, a Dynaco preamp and a McIntosh 60 watt stereo amp produced some of the most amazing sound I have ever heard. The source material has improved for sure but basic 2 channel reproduction for music is still as close to perfection as I have known. Thank you for the chat today.

Art - I have owned a 9.8, 80.1 and 80.2. I have compared each to its predecessor carefully in my system. I do not use the height or extra wide channels, but there is considerable sonic advantage to the newer units even without them. XT/32 was a major sonic advance over XT. I thought I was in heaven with the 9.8 for two years, but it gets even better.
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post #3404 of 3728
2/1/12 at 9:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Art - I have owned a 9.8, 80.1 and 80.2. I have compared each to its predecessor carefully in my system. I do not use the height or extra wide channels, but there is considerable sonic advantage to the newer units even without them. XT/32 was a major sonic advance over XT. I thought I was in heaven with the 9.8 for two years, but it gets even better.

I could see heaven with my 885, but not until the 5508 did I actually get there.
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post #3405 of 3728
2/1/12 at 8:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Onkyo is a very good company. They are also dealing with very large numbers, and problems arise that, at least initially, swamp their resources. I had the front panel IDE cable/connector bug. I was not happy, but I dealt with it. And so did they; I had my unit back in perfect working order in under two weeks.

Jeff: Got an email address or contact phone number for Integra/Onkyo?

My 80.2 has not been well since I did a new download a week ago. Audyssey is trying to help but the email I sent to Onkyo (may have been to the wrong part of the company) was responded to with a standard form response and they have since gone into radio silence. Very frustrating. Very!!!!!

Chuck
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post #3406 of 3728
2/1/12 at 11:29pm
Chuck,

I called the toll-free number on their website for tech support. They gave me the closest warranty service company ans had me call them. The warranty center supplied me with the RMA, and would have sent me a box if I needed one.

What are your symptoms?

Jeff
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post #3407 of 3728
2/2/12 at 5:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Chuck,

I called the toll-free number on their website for tech support. They gave me the closest warranty service company ans had me call them. The warranty center supplied me with the RMA, and would have sent me a box if I needed one.

What are your symptoms?

Jeff

I did a new download about a week ago. (Won't do that again unless my system is not working). The system, which before hand had sounded better than it ever had, sounded absolutely awful afterwords. I did a new calibration, and it sounded just as bad bad. For grins, I then did three measurements at the MLP, used a flat target curve from Pro. I then used OmniMIc to see the results.

During the OmniMic measurement process, the sweeps sounded REALLY strange. An almost "hollow" sound in the mid bass. I then disabled Audyssey, and the sweeps sounded normal. But the measurements (with or without Audyssey enabled) looked wrong --- a big rise in the low end. Certainly not flat. While there were differences in the with and without Audyssey, not like like you would expect and not like I have seen before. It is almost as if old filters are still in the system. I then did a factory reset (which has never reset everything in the system, by the way. There is almost always old stuff laying around (like crossovers, or trims or ...). And did it all over again. Same results.

And of course we are having someone over to watch the SuperBowl on Sunday.

I have been working with Chris at Audyssey (via their Ask Audyssey function) and am answering all of his questions, but so far no recommendations.

Can we all say together now: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
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post #3408 of 3728
2/2/12 at 6:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I did a new download about a week ago. (Won't do that again unless my system is not working). The system, which before hand had sounded better than it ever had, sounded absolutely awful afterwords. I did a new calibration, and it sounded just as bad bad. For grins, I then did three measurements at the MLP, used a flat target curve from Pro. I then used OmniMIc to see the results.

During the OmniMic measurement process, the sweeps sounded REALLY strange. An almost "hollow" sound in the mid bass. I then disabled Audyssey, and the sweeps sounded normal. But the measurements (with or without Audyssey enabled) looked wrong --- a big rise in the low end. Certainly not flat. While there were differences in the with and without Audyssey, not like like you would expect and not like I have seen before. It is almost as if old filters are still in the system. I then did a factory reset (which has never reset everything in the system, by the way. There is almost always old stuff laying around (like crossovers, or trims or ...). And did it all over again. Same results.

And of course we are having someone over to watch the SuperBowl on Sunday.

I have been working with Chris at Audyssey (via their Ask Audyssey function) and am answering all of his questions, but so far no recommendations.

Can we all say together now: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

I'm new to Onkyo/Integra products, my 80.2 is on it's way. What does the latest firmware add/fix? I was planning on getting the Pro Kit, is the firmware update necessary to use the Pro Kit?
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post #3409 of 3728
2/2/12 at 6:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by weird 23 View Post


I'm new to Onkyo/Integra products, my 80.2 is on it's way. What does the latest firmware add/fix? I was planning on getting the Pro Kit, is the firmware update necessary to use the Pro Kit?

It fixes some stuff that I don't even use. You can read the release notes on the Audyssey web site. It is NOT necessary for Pro
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post #3410 of 3728
2/2/12 at 7:07am
I am also a new owner of an Integra DHC-80.2 (replacement for an Onkyo 886) and after reading these comments about the most recent firmware update i am wondering if i should even bother with it.
My unit's firmware version is 1061-0500-0310-2101
Is that the most recent firmware version or the previous one ? Should i bother downloading/installing the most recent version ?
Tx >>> Marcos
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post #3411 of 3728
2/2/12 at 9:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

I am also a new owner of an Integra DHC-80.2 (replacement for an Onkyo 886) and after reading these comments about the most recent firmware update i am wondering if i should even bother with it.
My unit's firmware version is 1061-0500-0310-2101
Is that the most recent firmware version or the previous one ? Should i bother downloading/installing the most recent version ?
Tx >>> Marcos

Let me repeat my previous comment: if it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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post #3412 of 3728
2/2/12 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post


I have been working with Chris at Audyssey (via their Ask Audyssey function) and am answering all of his questions, but so far no recommendations.

Can we all say together now: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

I hear ya, but you already have the attention of the best person on the planet to help in this situation.

Good luck!

Jeff
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post #3413 of 3728
2/2/12 at 9:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Anyone done a recent update? I did a few days ago, tried to listen to a movie last night and my system sounds AWFUL (midrangy/peaky). I saw some comments on the Audyssey thread about updates and poor sound quality and was wondering if anyone here has experienced this.

Help!

How did you do your update? USB? I attempted to download & extract it. I got "No files to extract" I did this with my several XP Pro computers. (Even at friend's using Win7)
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post #3414 of 3728
2/2/12 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by calentz View Post

How did you do your update? USB? I attempted to download & extract it. I got "No files to extract" I did this with my several XP Pro computers. (Even at friend's using Win7)

My 80.2 is on my network so it downloads direct. Awesome when it doesn't screw up your system. I have done previous downloads this way and it worked great.
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post #3415 of 3728
2/2/12 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

My 80.2 is on my network so it downloads direct. Awesome when it doesn't screw up your system. I have done previous downloads this way and it worked great.

I never do firmware updates that way, as there is too great a chance of things going wrong.
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post #3416 of 3728
2/2/12 at 10:53am
Since moving to gear with network connectivity, I have only done updates over the 'net. So far there are have been 2-3 for my Oppo and 2-3 for my 5508. All happened quickly and without incident leaving me thinking "holy cow this is cool."

Jeff
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post #3417 of 3728
2/2/12 at 1:57pm
So I got xlr female to RCA male cables to use with the Integra. When everything is off for a few hours and I start everything back up I still get a pop in my front left speaker. It does it then and then a few minutes later and never happens again. Is that something I should be concerned with or no?
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post #3418 of 3728
2/2/12 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Since moving to gear with network connectivity, I have only done updates over the 'net. So far there are have been 2-3 for my Oppo and 2-3 for my 5508. All happened quickly and without incident leaving me thinking "holy cow this is cool."

Jeff

+1

I've done three through my 80.1 and three through my BDP-83 over the 'net.

Maybe I'm just lucky

Cheers,
SB
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post #3419 of 3728
2/2/12 at 2:42pm
You and me, Billy, you and me.
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post #3420 of 3728
2/2/12 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jslaw81 View Post

So I got xlr female to RCA male cables to use with the Integra. When everything is off for a few hours and I start everything back up I still get a pop in my front left speaker. It does it then and then a few minutes later and never happens again. Is that something I should be concerned with or no?

I think I've read other posts with something like that. Try searching this thread and then maybe the 5508 thread.

Jeff
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