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The Official Integra DHC-80.2 Pre/Pro Thread - Page 123

post #3661 of 3723
2/1/13 at 8:58am
Bill,

First, they aren't giving it to me by any means. Second, I liked the piece enough to want to add it to my system and inquired about a price. Third, I bought my Integra the exact same way. It's really no different that auditioning a piece from your dealer on a trial basis and then deciding that you would like to buy. For example, the Integra has a flaw with its video processing by switching the color space and I mentioned this (as well as Kris Deering) when I reviewed it a few years ago, yet I still bought it. My integrity means more to me than giving a positive review just to get a discount. I call a spade a spade when it comes to reviewing products and/or movies. Every movie reviewer gets "free"copies of the movies that they review, yet you still read a lot of negative reviews about particular movies, do you not?

When you compare the features the Integra/Onkyo has versus the Marantz 8801, you'll see that there are a lot of similarities between the two. The biggest difference is the price. While the Marantz sounds slightly better overall than the Integra, I'm not sure it's worth nearly twice the retail price. Then again, in the A/V world the law of diminishing returns is always an issue, is it not?
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post #3662 of 3723
2/1/13 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

Bill,

First, they aren't giving it to me by any means. Second, I liked the piece enough to want to add it to my system and inquired about a price. Third, I bought my Integra the exact same way. It's really no different that auditioning a piece from your dealer on a trial basis and then deciding that you would like to buy. For example, the Integra has a flaw with its video processing by switching the color space and I mentioned this (as well as Kris Deering) when I reviewed it a few years ago, yet I still bought it. My integrity means more to me than giving a positive review just to get a discount. I call a spade a spade when it comes to reviewing products and/or movies. Every movie reviewer gets "free"copies of the movies that they review, yet you still read a lot of negative reviews about particular movies, do you not?

When you compare the features the Integra/Onkyo has versus the Marantz 8801, you'll see that there are a lot of similarities between the two. The biggest difference is the price. While the Marantz sounds slightly better overall than the Integra, I'm not sure it's worth nearly twice the retail price. Then again, in the A/V world the law of diminishing returns is always an issue, is it not?

Dave,

First off I was not questioning your integrity as a reviewer. Just that for some reviewers I could see it swaying the outcome of a review so that the "deals" do not go away wink.gif. To compare getting "free" copies of a specific movie to reveiw to that of getting a "free" $1-2K component to review is quite different IMO. I would say most components reviewed (especially Hi-End ones) are returned and can be sold as review samples. But I would think there would not be much value in opened DVD/Blurays. I agree that paying twice as much for a component for a slight increase in SQ is really not worth it. But to some it is and thats fine smile.gif.

Bill
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post #3663 of 3723
2/1/13 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Dave,

I'm not trying to be sarcastic but I'm not surprised that Marantz offered you a great deal as you are an A/V reveiwer. There is a reviewer from an online publication that was given (to keep) components from a company that he was preparing to review. To be honest I find this gives the A/V company quite an advantage as far as the overall outcome of the review. I'm not saying that because you were given a good deal on the 8801 from Marantz will bias any future reviews of the 8801. But I would think it would make it hard for any reviewer to mention the negatives of a specific component if they were attained at a big discount or even more so for free.

Bill
All understandable, Bill, but in some cases I'm sure that it's also unfair. Consider that companies have review units that they shuttle around to "the press" and those units are written off to the marketing department. And then consider what they do with those units after several reviewers have had them. Do they pay to have them shipped back? If so, do they sell them as new, used or refurbed? The first one would be unethical - assuming no cosmetic damage had occured, the second - well they just don't do that - and the third would involve them spending more money on testing and re-certifying. Isn't the easy path to simply sell it to the last guy? Remember it was written off as marketing expense and any $$$ they get is gravy.

Just tossing that out for thought ...

Jeff
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post #3664 of 3723
2/1/13 at 1:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

All understandable, Bill, but in some cases I'm sure that it's also unfair. Consider that companies have review units that they shuttle around to "the press" and those units are written off to the marketing department. And then consider what they do with those units after several reviewers have had them. Do they pay to have them shipped back? If so, do they sell them as new, used or refurbed? The first one would be unethical - assuming no cosmetic damage had occured, the second - well they just don't do that - and the third would involve them spending more money on testing and re-certifying. Isn't the easy path to simply sell it to the last guy? Remember it was written off as marketing expense and any $$$ they get is gravy.

Just tossing that out for thought ...

Jeff

Jeff,

You bring up some good points. I'm sure specific A/V companies have their own way of handling review samples. I was taken aback when the reviewer I mentioned earlier said that the components he was reviewing were given to him free of charge. I have seen listings in catalogs from a few online retailers selling specific components as show and review samples. Maybe if I brush up on my technical and writing skills I can become a reviewer (highly doubtful biggrin.gif). Of course I would never take any free components wink.gif.

Bill
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post #3665 of 3723
2/1/13 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Jeff,

You bring up some good points. I'm sure specific A/V companies have their own way of handling review samples. I was taken aback when the reviewer I mentioned earlier said that the components he was reviewing were given to him free of charge. I have seen listings in catalogs from a few online retailers selling specific components as show and review samples. Maybe if I brush up on my technical and writing skills I can become a reviewer (highly doubtful biggrin.gif). Of course I would never take any free components wink.gif.

Bill

I guess you could look at the reviewer saying that as him being transparent and making a full dislosure?

I'd love for Dave to comment on this issue of reviewers and the gear that can be available to reviewers.

Jeff
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post #3666 of 3723
2/1/13 at 3:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I guess you could look at the reviewer saying that as him being transparent and making a full dislosure?

Jeff

One could look at it that way. But I look at it as the company trying to secure a positive review by providing the gear for free (to keep). Why else would a company give away their gear? They certainly are not giving it away to us "regular" consumers wink.gif.

Bill
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post #3667 of 3723
2/1/13 at 5:12pm
I've never put myself in a quid pro quo situation on any review. I've bought a few samples over the years because I liked the piece, but that has been after the review has been submitted to my editor and my thoughts already formed. It's common in the industry to receive a discount on a piece of gear, whether you review it or not. In the case of the Marantz, I liked what I saw on paper and wanted a chance to audition it with my own speakers. Fortunately (or unfortunately for my bank account), I really liked it enough to want to make it a permanent fixture in my home theater. This has happened in the past with Oppo players, my first JVC projector, and a TiVo. One thing that I have been given for free over the years is certain A/V cables to test/compare to what I usually use, but I've never written a review about them. I will only let other's know of my experience with them and how they've worked versus other options.
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post #3668 of 3723
2/2/13 at 9:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

I've never put myself in a quid pro quo situation on any review. I've bought a few samples over the years because I liked the piece, but that has been after the review has been submitted to my editor and my thoughts already formed. It's common in the industry to receive a discount on a piece of gear, whether you review it or not. In the case of the Marantz, I liked what I saw on paper and wanted a chance to audition it with my own speakers. Fortunately (or unfortunately for my bank account), I really liked it enough to want to make it a permanent fixture in my home theater. This has happened in the past with Oppo players, my first JVC projector, and a TiVo. One thing that I have been given for free over the years is certain A/V cables to test/compare to what I usually use, but I've never written a review about them. I will only let other's know of my experience with them and how they've worked versus other options.

Thanks, Dave. Has your Marantz review been published yet? Do you make any comparative comments on sound quality vis-a-vis the Onk/Integra 5508/5509/80.2/80.3?

Jeff
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post #3669 of 3723
2/2/13 at 3:52pm
It won't be published for at least a month or so...sorry for the lag, but it's how it is in the print world.
I would say the Marantz is more inviting and its surround presence is more engaging. I had to send the AV8801 off to the lab for measurements and have my 80.2 back in the rack and there's a definite difference between the two. The 80.2 is brighter and leaner, which some may prefer.
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post #3670 of 3723
2/2/13 at 4:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

It won't be published for at least a month or so...sorry for the lag, but it's how it is in the print world.
I would say the Marantz is more inviting and its surround presence is more engaging. I had to send the AV8801 off to the lab for measurements and have my 80.2 back in the rack and there's a definite difference between the two. The 80.2 is brighter and leaner, which some may prefer.

I think you got it right.  My review in Stereophile may be out as I have already gotten a PM from a reader.

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post #3671 of 3723
2/3/13 at 5:50am
Thanks Dave and Kal. My 5508 is at the repair center (auto-correct just made that the "despair" center smile.gif) for the HDMI board bug. That's 6-8 months after being "despaired" for the front panel/IDE cable bug. That's two more bugs than any of my gear has ever had and I am considering bolting from the brand. Sure they have stepped up on these bugs, but what's next?

It has been a long time since I owned a Marantz - back even before Superscope owned the company. Anyway, Denon is a wee bit too "proud" of their flagship pre/pro (I wouldn't use an AVR as one), so Marantz is getting my attention.

Jeff

edit: Yowsah, I just checked pricing on the AV8801 and they seem to be quite "proud" of that unit, too. Guess ill be sticking with the 5508. frown.gif
Edited by pepar - 2/3/13 at 5:55am
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post #3672 of 3723
2/3/13 at 6:06am
I have found that using the oppo 103 in split mode seems to give smoother sound and more engaging music for my HIDEF blu rays and SACDs .

The Oppo sends the wide bandwidth video directly to my Kuro 151 with the other HDMI going to the 80.2 with more bandwidth for sound. I listened to a lot of AIX HIDEF music last night . This configuration seems much better for 24/96 blu rays and my SACDs.

Joel
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post #3673 of 3723
2/3/13 at 6:16am
Wonder why that is?
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post #3674 of 3723
2/3/13 at 7:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

I have found that using the oppo 103 in split mode seems to give smoother sound and more engaging music for my HIDEF blu rays and SACDs .

The Oppo sends the wide bandwidth video directly to my Kuro 151 with the other HDMI going to the 80.2 with more bandwidth for sound. I listened to a lot of AIX HIDEF music last night . This configuration seems much better for 24/96 blu rays and my SACDs.

Joel
HDMI1 has the more advanced video and HDMI2 has the more advanced audio (DSD) on the Oppo 103. I would expect the SACDs to sound better, not sure of why a BluRay would however.
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post #3675 of 3723
2/3/13 at 7:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

It won't be published for at least a month or so...sorry for the lag, but it's how it is in the print world.
I would say the Marantz is more inviting and its surround presence is more engaging. I had to send the AV8801 off to the lab for measurements and have my 80.2 back in the rack and there's a definite difference between the two. The 80.2 is brighter and leaner, which some may prefer.

dave you have stated that when you review a pre/pro or receiver you don't engage room correction dsp so i'm assuming this was the case here...

but i am interested to know that if, when using xt32, the difference between the integra and the marantz is just as noticeable...?

i ask this because "brighter and leaner" would not normally be my preference...
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post #3676 of 3723
2/3/13 at 7:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I would expect the SACDs to sound better, not sure of why a BluRay would however.

Some might say that with the DSD setting SACDs sound better. I did not find this to be true and I'm just leaving my 103 set to PCM.

Bill
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post #3677 of 3723
2/3/13 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post


It has been a long time since I owned a Marantz - back even before Superscope owned the company. Anyway, Denon is a wee bit too "proud" of their flagship pre/pro (I wouldn't use an AVR as one), so Marantz is getting my attention.

 

 

Jeff, I have read that Marantz have 'sound issues'. Now that is all I know about it and I haven't delved any deeper as I have no intention of changing my 5509 for the foreseeable. But I have read it in more than one place. I think, and ICBW on this, that the remarks I have read have suggested that Marantz units have a 'warmer' sound, which, albeit maybe 'inviting' and 'engaging' smacks of amp-as-tone-control to me and should be avoided at all costs. This may or may not also apply to any pre-pros they might make.

 

My Onkyo units have all been (so far) completely without issues. If I had had to return the same unit twice, I would be considering moving on from the brand too. My choice, until recently, would have been the Denon 4311 which is an AVR but can be used in prepro mode (I see no differences between doing that and using a real prepro) and it has XT32, is Pro ready and can also run a full 11 channel system. Of course, it is now no longer available but its price on closeout was astonishing. The 4520 is, I am sure, a terrific choice for many but it is very expensive. 

 

Bottom line: I would need to be convinced that the Marantz is transparent to the source and, if my 5509 fails, I have NFI what I would get to replace it!  Probably an Onkyo 3010 and use it in prepro mode.

 

I am, of course, very happy to be corrected on the Marantz issue if I have the wrong end of the stick.

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post #3678 of 3723
2/3/13 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post

dave you have stated that when you review a pre/pro or receiver you don't engage room correction dsp so i'm assuming this was the case here...

but i am interested to know that if, when using xt32, the difference between the integra and the marantz is just as noticeable...?

i ask this because "brighter and leaner" would not normally be my preference...

When the room correction was run, I still preferred the Marantz over the Integra. The best way to put it is the Marantz has more presence and one thing in particular was with dialog in movies..the voices sounded like they were sitting in the room versus coming from a speaker.
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post #3679 of 3723
2/3/13 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

HDMI1 has the more advanced video and HDMI2 has the more advanced audio (DSD) on the Oppo 103. I would expect the SACDs to sound better, not sure of why a BluRay would however.

It is the AIX 24/96 blu rays that I hear improvement, especially piano ,e.g. Trotter"s blu ray.
I also heard improvement with hi def PCM using the dual HDMI setup.
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post #3680 of 3723
2/3/13 at 2:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Jeff, I have read that Marantz have 'sound issues'. Now that is all I know about it and I haven't delved any deeper as I have no intention of changing my 5509 for the foreseeable. But I have read it in more than one place. I think, and ICBW on this, that the remarks I have read have suggested that Marantz units have a 'warmer' sound, which, albeit maybe 'inviting' and 'engaging' smacks of amp-as-tone-control to me and should be avoided at all costs. This may or may not also apply to any pre-pros they might make.

I hear you, but I think manufacturers "voice" their electronics like they voice speakers. So it is probably a matter of the "tone control" being twiddled one way for Marantz and another way for Onk. And that makes it a preference issue.

Jeff
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post #3681 of 3723
2/4/13 at 4:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Jeff, I have read that Marantz have 'sound issues'. Now that is all I know about it and I haven't delved any deeper as I have no intention of changing my 5509 for the foreseeable. But I have read it in more than one place. I think, and ICBW on this, that the remarks I have read have suggested that Marantz units have a 'warmer' sound, which, albeit maybe 'inviting' and 'engaging' smacks of amp-as-tone-control to me and should be avoided at all costs. This may or may not also apply to any pre-pros they might make.

I hear you, but I think manufacturers "voice" their electronics like they voice speakers. So it is probably a matter of the "tone control" being twiddled one way for Marantz and another way for Onk. And that makes it a preference issue.

Jeff

 

I'd hope, at the higher end of their ranges, that they strive for transparency and neutrality to the source. 

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post #3682 of 3723
2/4/13 at 5:17am
Such "voicing" would be apparent in frequency and distortion plots and it isn't.
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post #3683 of 3723
2/4/13 at 5:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Jeff, I have read that Marantz have 'sound issues'. Now that is all I know about it and I haven't delved any deeper as I have no intention of changing my 5509 for the foreseeable. But I have read it in more than one place. I think, and ICBW on this, that the remarks I have read have suggested that Marantz units have a 'warmer' sound, which, albeit maybe 'inviting' and 'engaging' smacks of amp-as-tone-control to me and should be avoided at all costs. This may or may not also apply to any pre-pros they might make.

I hear you, but I think manufacturers "voice" their electronics like they voice speakers.

As a rule they don't.

The most common exception is tubed amps of the kind that are called SETs.

Since that technology almost never shows up in AVRs, you can think what you want, but not so much.
Quote:
So it is probably a matter of the "tone control" being twiddled one way for Marantz and another way for Onk. And that makes it a preference issue.

Any such manipulations would stick out like sore thumbs in any comprehensive bench test. It would show in the tech tests that are published in the audio magazines that publish such tests. It doesn't.

I've personally bench tested a number of AVRs and looked specifically for such manipulations. They aren't there when the AVR is set up for flat response. There are now a goodly number of features that can do such things but they are turned off by default. If you turn them on, you get what you get.
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post #3684 of 3723
2/4/13 at 5:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Such "voicing" would be apparent in frequency and distortion plots and it isn't.

Exactly.

AVR features that might cause such audible changes are present in the feature sets for modern AVRs from many manufacturers. Since they are implemented digitally, they can be fully out of the signal path and not degrade it in any way when they are not enabled.

I'm talking about things like:

Mono Movie Surround Mode
Rock Arena Surround Mode
Matrix Surround Mode
Jazz Club Surround Mode
Virtual Surround Mode – For 2
Audyssey Dynamic Surround Expansion (DSX) Processing
THX Ultra2 7.1 Cinema, Music and Game Modes
dts Neo:6 Stereo-to-Surround Cinema and Music Mode
Dolby Pro Logic IIz - with Cinema, Music, Game Modes
Dolby Headphone
dts ES Matrix 6.1 Decoding
Audyssey Dynamic EQ
Audyssey Dynamic Volume

etc., etc.
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post #3685 of 3723
2/4/13 at 10:47am
Re the discussion on "voicing" --

I know from working with Pro that some tweaks as small as .5 dB - .25dB were audible. If they were audible, you'd assume that they were measureable. But they didn';t show up on any measurement that I could generate and then look at with my eyes. Examples of what I was doing would be taking the edge off of Ernie Watts' sax or Chaka Khan's voice, or sweetening some other instrument's sound.

Could someone in the "they don't voice" camp explain why Marantz sounds different than Onk/Integra? If you can hear it, it should be measurable, right?

As far as differences not showing up, I would go back to them being so slight - to the eyes - so as to be undetected by looking at graphs.

I am just commenting on my experiences and asking.

Jeff
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post #3686 of 3723
2/4/13 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Re the discussion on "voicing" --

I know from working with Pro that some tweaks as small as .5 dB - .25dB were audible. If they were audible, you'd assume that they were measureable. But they didn';t show up on any measurement that I could generate and then look at with my eyes. Examples of what I was doing would be taking the edge off of Ernie Watts' sax or Chaka Khan's voice, or sweetening some other instrument's sound.

Could someone in the "they don't voice" camp explain why Marantz sounds different than Onk/Integra? If you can hear it, it should be measurable, right?

As far as differences not showing up, I would go back to them being so slight - to the eyes - so as to be undetected by looking at graphs.

I am just commenting on my experiences and asking.

Jeff

Good question Jeff. It may be such small differences that cause me to prefer the sound of the Denon 4520. Its a slight difference but seems real. If it is audible it should be measurable and perhaps is but the scale on the graphs may not be sufficiently fine to show it.
Edited by Theresa - 2/4/13 at 11:06am
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post #3687 of 3723
2/4/13 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Re the discussion on "voicing" --

I know from working with Pro that some tweaks as small as .5 dB - .25dB were audible. If they were audible, you'd assume that they were measureable. But they didn';t show up on any measurement that I could generate and then look at with my eyes. Examples of what I was doing would be taking the edge off of Ernie Watts' sax or Chaka Khan's voice, or sweetening some other instrument's sound.

Could someone in the "they don't voice" camp explain why Marantz sounds different than Onk/Integra? If you can hear it, it should be measurable, right?

As far as differences not showing up, I would go back to them being so slight - to the eyes - so as to be undetected by looking at graphs.

I am just commenting on my experiences and asking.

Jeff

 

IDK Jeff. I am of the view that everything you hear can be measured, but not everything you can measure can be heard. So if you can hear it, then it ought to be measurable. Why it isn't though, IDK.

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post #3688 of 3723
2/4/13 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Such "voicing" would be apparent in frequency and distortion plots and it isn't.

 

This is certainly my view too. But I respect Jeff's opinions and his hearing, and he says it isn't so in the case of his Pro tweaking. So IDK.

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post #3689 of 3723
2/4/13 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

This is certainly my view too. But I respect Jeff's opinions and his hearing, and he says it isn't so in the case of his Pro tweaking. So IDK.

See my later response. I respect Jeff's opinions and his hearing too and he offers a reason for the perceived difference that just needs to be tested. I know that there have been many blind tests of amps that show there is no real difference and I accept this but don't believe the same is true for pre-pros or pre-pro sections of a receiver. I know Arny would disagree with this but there is no proof I've seen that all processors sound the same. I do believe, rightly or wrongly, that if pre-pro's were run in "direct" mode that they would sound the same but there's a whole lot of processing going on when they are in something other than direct mode.
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post #3690 of 3723
2/4/13 at 12:35pm
I wonder what accounts for Dave and Kal reporting audible differences (sans Audyssey MultEQ) between Marantz and Onk/Integra pre/pros?

(More inviting vs brighter and leaner)
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