Top contenders in their class 15,18,21 inch drivers - Page 5

Ricci posted:

There are always going to be niche drivers that have the super heavy cones that have abysmally low efficiency that can be slapped into a tiny box. They really do work. They also really need huge amounts of power to get them moving and producing SPL.

Hence by remark about car audio drivers that have 60+ lbs in motor strapped onto the back of the cone. They have such a high mass and stiff suspension that are part a parcel of operating in a very small box. What do you think happens inside when you have a 12, 15 or even 18 operate in a box that is the cube of it's O.D. ? The internal stress on the drive ris huge. Some of the boxes I have modeled over the years generate measureable PIS values! They also start to work with kilowatt plus amps.

So performance must take on this criteria.

1 Size
2 Cost
3 SPL capability
4 Sound quality, as in less intermodulation distortion.
5 Dynamic capability. A lot tougher than most people think.
6 True power to SPL capability. This one is deceptive. Many of the small box drivers require more power input to track musical signals than we can provide. I'm talking even more than 4kw. Do the math on some of the drivers in the low 80's to high 70's in SPL/watt and you will be very surprised. They really can't get that loud. And multiple cheaper drivers start to make sense.

The choices we make in the above options all interplay with one another to produce different box sizes. But when you are looking 4 and 5 there are not that many combinations that meet hose criteria.



The sad part is that most of the drivers mentioned in this thread are not cheap.

Scott Simonian just posted that multiple drivers are prefered over a good single. I agree with part of the arguement. But you will need to give up a lot more real estate.

In the been in the been there done that camp for almost every type of alignment conceivable. Heck I even tried my hand at pushing the envelope in something I thought might be new. ( It wasn't ) But for what I have listened to and what I compare live sound to I'm sticking firmly in the horn camp. To tough to beat with any amount of drivers. That is in sound quality and totally effortless dynamics. It's a combination of baseline SPL and truly available power from the amp.

Mark

Just a quick reply on that...

I looked at the cost of one LMS18 as the same as quad av15's and did the models in unibox. There was little difference in output and frequency responce while comparing a single LMS18 in a 100liter box and two av15h's in a 100liter box. I put 2000w on the LMS and 1000w each on the av15's. The price for the av15 box w/ drivers is half the cost of the LMS. True, you would need to take up more space in a room but that's only if you want to use more than two 15's. If one had the option they could stack the 2nd av15h box on top of the first and have four 15's in the same floorspace that one LMS18 or two av15h's would use.

This is just what I would do but you have to take the drivers use/application in to thought and also think about who is using it. The single LMS18 cab would be the more robust of the two if you had the other as dual av15h's, imho. Really just depends on how they are used.

This IS the top contenders thread, anyway.

So I would say that the av15's are in the top (imo) of 15's and the LMS18 is the best if not one of the best built 18's out there.... depending on application, of course.

for bang for the buck, scott, why not something oddball like mr. hurd's peavey low rider 18's. four of them for the price of an ultra and they only need a flea powered amp. big enclosures though (something like 12+ cubic feet tuned to 20hz). not a bad solution for the guy with lots of space and no money for drivers or amps. yes, no?

Absolutely! Well, as long as the Lowrider performs/measures as well as the specs imply. I have never used one before but the price is right and the specs look decent.

Would it? On paper it would have advantages in some areas and disadvantages in others. A lot of assumptions go into that too without measurement data. A pair of sdx15's didnt. The model said yes. How many other combos can you come up with? What about a 20x20x14 enclosure? 2 av15's won't fit.

Scott mentions 4 av15's. Now we are comparing 4 drivers versus one? Im pretty sure I can fit 6 of the right pro 18's. Just because you can jam as many drivers as you can into an enclosure does not mean it will be the best way to go. This is along the lines of vas's idea to jam 30 6.5's in there. Should be much better right? If you are giving away larger enclosure size then where does it stop? Why not just get 12 dayton quattro 15's for the price of 4 av15's and put them each in a 1000L flh? Isn't the quattro a better driver then?

I get +10dB at 10Hz from the alignment, configuration and placement in my room, regardless of the driver used.

Working backward from there tells me what excursion with 'x' Sd is required. Reducing that excursion and required input power is a matter of multiples, X2, X4, X8, X16.

For the money spent on the LMS Ultra, I can have 4-18" or 5-15" drivers that will result in far superior performance at the LP and up its sensitivity by +6-10dB.

I think the LMS drivers are a superb achievement. In a single driver scenario, they're worth every penny. I've never used one because a single driver won't cut it for me and, another big for me, I'd have to enlarge the enclosures significantly strictly because of their huge mounting depth, which is nearly twice some of the drivers I've used.

I've recently built several subs using the Fi platform. Scott's great about working with me to tweak parameters, but you can get 4 of the stock Fi for the price of a single LMS and it's no contest in any category using the same power plant for 1 LMS or 4xFi-18".

I'd say, for this conversation, 2-SSD18s will offer better in-room performance than a single LMS Ultra-18 in-room, giving both subs 4kw, leaving $400 on the table.

Scott's 4xAV15H is another example I agree with (and have experience with), and 4xSSD15 or BL15 will as well (which I also have experience with).

If you're still planning to measure some subs, I may be willing to show up with a couple or 8 subs.

Bosso

Bosso

I wouldn't say I'm in the habit of 'jamming' anything into anything, but, yes... this goes to part of what I said earlier... the driver isn't as important as these discussions about every piece and part would suggest.

Bosso

I didn't know this thread was about maximizing $$$ now??

THe LMS is the only driver I know of that can go in a 70Liter box and do huge SPL down low with enough power.

Is it the best value??? HELL NO!!! but when footprint comes to mind, nothing comes close to it.

My LMS 5400/Marathon 5050 24x20x23 build will cost me $1600. 4 years ago it cost me $1600 when I built an IB with 4 18" Fi Q18s and used the EP2500.

Which one would I take over and over?? Its obvious to me and Im sure the LMS will be nice and all but the IB beats it hands down in many areas even including foot print.

Is it really < 128Watts when dealing with a sealed design that needs +12dB boost down low??

What really matters is the peaks and really its all about that last 1%, if you do not have the 1% then you know your system is still missing somthing.

We drive the corner store daily never going above 35 MPH but we know we want raw power when we see a transport trailer on the highway start moving in on us. Don't bother with a 135 HP car then, Im not one to waiting around for it accelerate.

Unless you have a great design with >= 100dB sensitivity then 128Watts isnt cutting it for +10dB reference level performance need for the best HT experience in our custom rooms. What have we become, BOSE lovers?

Yes, a perfect example.

It's really not so much about saving $$ (after all, I ran 8xTumults for years and they weren't so cheap), that's just a consequence of facing the facts of the matter.

Bosso

It depends on your objectives and your constraints.

There isnt a lot of people out there that actually accept two larger boxes in room.

Again as an example of cost comparisons. I would take 4 Q18s in an IB over the AV15Hs in dual sealed boxes. I need less power, ZERO foot print and far less wood.

Again, this all comes around full circle. Budgets, requirements all play a role in "what is the best" choice. What is good for one person isn't always good for someone else.

Lucky for us we have lots of options and they all beat the crap out of the common audio setup.

Thanks Bosso, I was about to EDIT my post because you post the "special value" of the LMS before I did. I was thinking damn, I finally got something right

+1.
I thought we were talking about drivers and the best, with a switch into efficiency and inductance and how they play in.
I don't even know what we are discussing anymore. Some are talking about enclosure types, others about cost effectiveness, the enclosure size is apparently wide open, as is everything else but other things are being restricted. Everybody has their druthers. In my case the #1 restriction is enclosure size always. It might be a large enclosure but.it is still the restriction. After that it's power and what can realistically be provided or handled. That's where the best drivers for the app come in. If you can fit 8 15" quattro's then the comparison should be lms enclosures utilizig the same amout of total enclosure volume.

ricci, according to the models, i just thought that two av15h would give an lms-18 a run for the money in the cab size that you spec'd. a pair costs about half of an lms-18. that's all i was saying. not sure what to say about the sdx. maybe it could a little more motor.

"How many other combos can you come up with?"

:-( i don't understand what you mean here.

"If you're still planning to measure some subs, I may be willing to show up with a couple or 8 subs."

i'd like to see what you have got cooking bosso. :-)

some measurements could also verify or nullify your theory on open air corner loading.

My LMS-5400 box is almost done...damn its a large driver and Im starting to wonder if my box is too small.

It will compare to my twin TC2K 15" 11 cuft ported subs to this. Im sure the 40Hz to 80Hz is better but Im wonder if I will still have the impact in the 15Hz to 30Hz range.

Scott is a smart dude and has some good drivers. What'd you go with? Modified Q's? I've been interested to see some real data on his drivers but I've got about all I can handle as far as cabs to test for the time being. I don't know where I'd get the time to get the other 8 subs in.

BTW I fully expect my dual opposed 21's to be a mean mama jamma.

No one is disputing that 4 Fi 18's are going to trounce any other single driver. It's just that I was under the impression that we were looking at drivers potential alone or what is possible in any given enclosure size. Changes things.

He is a great guy to deal with too!

Mark,

Actually the big super heavy drivers being mentioned in this thread can be quite efficient in the range of interest which is below 120hz, including the LMS driver. Some of the car audio drivers are as well. There is also the fact to consider that efficiency varies with frequency so you have to look at the application. also it is much more complex than a at rest parameter. What happens when you push a driver away from center? It's parameters shift with BL dropping off and suspension tightening, also the inductance starts to shift. More distortion occurs and the efficiency drops off a lot. This is a form of compression. The driver that is more linear like an LMS is going to stay much closer to the original at rest parameters where as the other less linear driver will lose a larger percentage of BL and it's suspension will be more offset or tightened more at the same drive level. The more linear driver with the longer stroke will have less of this form of compression. Where the increased power is input into a different set of less efficient and optimized parameters.

4 and 5.

Again you cannot give any driver a free lunch of a huge enclosure and not give it to the other. That is no kind of comparison. This is not about enclosures it's about drivers. You might say that 1000L of horn can be very low distortion and sound great, but have you ever truly heard 1000L of sealed subwoofers or IB to compare it too? You might be talking about 2-4 drivers for the horn while You could easily be talking about 12 drivers in the sealed scenario or 6-8 ported. These are going to have quite a bump in efficiency and power handling, displacement, etc.

"Again you cannot give any driver a free lunch of a huge enclosure and not give it to the other."

don't some drivers work in larger enclosures than other drivers?

Ricci wrote:


One thing should be disclosed right off in the beginning.

I have worked part time as a consultant since 1989. I have built drivers from scratch. Not boxes and such but actual drivers. Has been quite a while since the last one though. 13 years almost exactly. I make money off the knowledge I have earned over the years. It is part time so no I'm not rich.

Have I done most anything you have mentioned?

YES!

I have worked on, designed and installed most every combination of evilness an audio fiend can come up with. Remember my bread and butter job is as a custom cabinet maker. Some of the systems even sounded good. I used to attend most of the shows. I don't any longer. To much hype and B.S. Besides talking to the guys there falls into two camps. Sales and engineering. Me and the engineers get along famously. Me and the salesmen. Well thing gattling gun and pot shots.



Have I got pretty set conclusions ?

Yes!

Can I learn?

Oh yes!

Check out the following:

Unless I'm missing something about the model numbers of the TC SOunds stuff you guys are referencing I'm getting boxes that are rather large and peaked. I have simmed them in a number of programs and can't really get a flat response. They seem to require EQ work to flatten them out. They also need truck loads of power to get them where you are happy. Is this real progress? Not so sure.

The best lookinf LMS Ultra graph I could work up was with a 410 liter box. Now that's not to small by anybodies standards.

Kind of funny when a single twelve in a horn will match the uber 18 with one quarter the power.

Give me four TRIO12's in a horn and I'm not sure anyone would be ready to take it to full power. I can't get an in room response of one driver! It is to hard on my house! 4 will break glass!

As for no free lunch I'm with you all the way to the cafeteria. Heck I'm even buying. But you have to choose where the most intelligent place to put the calories is.

The decision as to what points are the most important must be made.

As for me my criteria is to reproduce music as cloe to the original SPL, tone and timber as I can. That can be done a couple of ways.

Infinite baffle with a lot of drivers lots of power

Closed box EQ and a lot of drivers lots of power

Horn, huge box a few driver and modest power

What I have found is that to get to the same SPL most things equal out.

Drivers or box size.

Take my example of a 410 liter box with an LMS ultra 18 in it. I may not have all the particulars worked out properly. But for illustrative purposes:

To get to the level of a horn loaded 12 you may need another 3 db. Fine throw in another box. Now your inthe same enclosure size. The horn will need less power still and the distortion products will be much lower than the 18" driver.

Give the LMS driver a horn and what do you get? Well I have done some design work with that beast. The horn is bigger than a twelve. And yes the SPL is good enough to drive a theater into standing wave pulsations, knock little old ladies off their walkers and break light bulbs. I'm not a home theater by the way. A real theater. But the box size is not for the faint of heart. It can fit in a cube van and be lifted by a fork lift.

So there are boxes and there are semi portable live in dwellings
LOL

Mark

I know your plate is full... that's why I haven't bothered you.

We're working on tweaking the SSD and I currently have a dozen of them here. I'm testing the new 9kw amps with tracking switch mode power supply and voltage clip limiters as we speak. So far, they're all that. 2RU and 30 pounds, plugged into a dedicated 30A circuit (they also work well with the 20A circuit, but I'm running them all out to see what they can do with 115V AC).

I gotta say, this Blackbird stacked system is blowing my mind. There are many details and formulae to get straight before I update the Raven thread with the scoop, but I'll say that a 1/2 stack (4x15") in each corner is compact, easy on the eyes, very cost effective and effortlessly delivers, even at ref levels with the sub at +10dB hot, all the way down.

No post EQ, no smoothing. Just plug n' play:


This is what I've been touching on in this thread. There are ways to get better performance at the LP (vs cornfield sine wave testing for a limited list of performance criteria that's a bit long in the tooth, IMHO) that make the list of top contender drivers much longer.

Anyway, been following your threads and looking forward to the results. Spill it when ya got it and I'm right there.

Bosso

Geez...

If I ain't killing threads off, I am doing a hell of a job derailing them.

I just mentioned the quad drivers compared to the one as a value thing when considering the reality of most the subs we build in home use. Again... everyone has different circumstances and applications for their gear, as Penn mentioned.

LMS18 = epic uber driver!!! AVS thread win!!!!



Moving in a slightly different direction I would like a TD18h+ in ~100 liter cab (24x24x14") sealed. Make a wall of these. Like, eight minimum and at least 1kw each. Good in home and with some L/T applied. Alter these to whatever vented alignment for outdoor or excessive output in home use. If output or power handling is not enough, replace TD18h with B&C 21SW152 and apply 2kw+ to each driver.

Oh, woops. That's multiple drivers again. Damnit! I swear... I fail at being human.

Me thinks it is me doing the de-railing.

Time to stop.

Let you guys hammer out what is important to you.

Mark

I second that! I'm late in coming to the Scott Atwell party, but better late than never. I just think his stuff deserves mention in any top contender driver thread.

Bosso

I don't miss any of your posts.

Bosso

Cost?

Would love to hear details Bosso on your blackbird system. What amp are you talking about? What size are your dual opposed enclosures? I always enjoy reading about your builds!

This quickly turned into a better value / better system design thread.

gg