Official Sony KDL-EX710 LCD-LED TVs - Page 34

Oh, I can see defects, all right. The corner flashlighting and unevenness in black screens/very dark scenes are pretty easy to see.

I have simply decided (like hughh) that these kinds of "defects" are tolerable, and to be expected unless I'm willing to spring for quite a bit more money.





In my previous post I stated my view that television manufacturers' design engineers really do try to provide easily accessible preset picture modes that will satisfy most prospective buyers.

I think these engineers, just as those employed by the car companies, are passionate, obsessed with technology and quality, and want their work to be impressive as the dickens!


The MARKETING department, on the other hand...



Anyway, I never said that anyone should expect a new TV to be anywhere CLOSE to accurate out of the box.

(Also, "Factory settings", "out of the box" and "factory presets" are three different things.)


The "out of the box" settings for even the most expensive TV (even those which are capable of phenomenal accuracy after calibration) are intended to be attention-getting and impressive, NOT close to accurate.

And that's for the home/domestic mode; FORGET about commercial/showroom mode!



I simply mean that most new TVs include a preset picture/scene mode SOMEWHERE in the menus that provides reasonable accuracy, given that model's design compromises.


Consider this...

If a television model is CAPABLE of displaying an accurate picture (after being calibrated), why the heck wouldn't the engineers, being knowledgeable (I assume) about these things, include a preset mode that displays the most accurate picture possible for that model.

I think they almost always do, and it's usually the "Cinema" mode.




I have seen a number of suggested calibration settings for various television models, and the calibrators often state that they start with the factory Cinema settings, and tweak from there.

I've observed that usually the "finished" settings aren't all that far off the default Cinema values.



I think the difference between a calibrated TV and an uncalibrated TV of the same model (on "normal" program material, NOT test discs and calibration cards) might actually be less visible in some cases than the variation between two uncalibrated TVs of the same model.

At least to me.

Ken

<<>>

All quality Tv's are capable of displaying an accurate picture. It depends a lot on the ability of the calibrator and the quality of his equipment. There used to be a Tv (Optoma, I think) marketed as being ISF calibrated. From what I've read, the reason, other than cost is that such tv would be subject to all kinds of bumps and jars on the way from the factory and could easily get the settings upset.

However, do not despair, I remember reading about a MY2011 Tv (can't remember the manufacturer right now) who will market a model with an"automatic ISF" setting.

<<< I think the difference between a calibrated TV and an uncalibrated TV of the same model (on "normal" program material, NOT test discs and calibration cards) might actually be less visible in some cases than the variation between two uncalibrated TVs of the same model.>>>

Depends on the actual TV. Many posts I have seen agree with you. However, these are usually tv that their owners have been tweaking no end.

I have seen the same articles that recommend using the Cinema mode for those that don't want to fiddle with the settings. In my case, I won't use it because it's way off. My settings for General are to our eyes, much, much better than what we have in the Cinema as provided by Sony. It all seems to vary from one unit to another.

This is from the same UK publication, in this case it's a review of the 40EX700:

Colour
We mentioned earlier in the review that whilst they don’t offer any real colour management controls, Sony have implemented the [Live Colour] control in a way which allows for a very small amount of choice in Chromaticity. Of course, this control is designed to unnaturally emphasise colour, so it boosts the Luminance levels of the colours noticeably. In any case, we measured all three settings and noted that none brought any benefit in terms of accurate chromaticity, so it’s still best left Off.

All is not lost, however: we do at least have the basic [Hue] control, which, surprisingly, is effective with all signal types, not just composite NTSC video. Unlike some Sony TVs, the user is also allowed to adjust it when using the set’s built-in Digital TV tuner. Of course, this affects all colours rather than targeting just one like a real Colour Management System would, but we still managed to improve accuracy very slightly (especially with Magenta) by shifting it three notches towards green.

As the charts show, the resulting colour reproduction was of a high standard. The largest error was with red, which was pushed slightly towards orange, with this colour looking less “deep” as a result. (This may be slightly problematic when combined with the viewing angle deficiencies which all LCDs suffer from to some extent, but more on that later). None of the other colours are far enough out of standard to be noteworthy, and while the result is very good, we hope Sony will add proper control in their next round of displays.

Sony shouldn’t sit still, because they still have work to do in matching the features of the Korean-brand TVs. In the future, we’d love to see them add proper Colour Management controls and a 10-point Greyscale calibration feature, which would be beneficial in cleaning up overall colour quality and tints in dark areas of the picture, respectively. Additionally, they could improve the clarity of SD-to-HD scaling (as Panasonic have recently done, to great effect).
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-...0100724786.htm

I forgot to mention, a good ISF calibration requires it be done at the viewing place, in other words, at your home. The calibrator will calibrate not only for the most accurate picture he can get, but also for the type of viewing as well as in some cases the separate inputs that you are willing to pay for.

There are some very informative posts on the Display Calibration topic.

at any rate try these settings and post what you think about them. maybe we can reboot the settings part of the thread from here. they certainly look better than 'stock' to me.

http://www.tweaktv.com/tweak-my-tv/c...l-46ex700.html

Not bad, but the Sharpness at 10 is an overkill. That will cause all kinds of digital noise around edges and letters. We are seating about 12 ft from our 60EX700 and have it set at 3. If we were seating at, say 7 or 8 ft I would set it a minimum!

For watching Tv, the preferred setting is usually Motionflow Standard, Cinemotion Auto2

Different for games, usually OFF is the best setting.

This is an example of what I said in my previous thread...

The suggested settings for the KDL-46EX700 on the TweakTV site (link above) were supposedly chosen based on based on "data collected in the field by [TweakTV's] technicians performing professional calibrations". They are supposed to be reasonably accurate for the general user, although not a substitute for a professional job.


Now check out the differences between TweakTV's suggested settings and the factory default Cinema settings for the KDL-46EX710:


Reviewer-calibrated KDL-46EX700 vs KDL-46EX710 Cinema defaults
* Picture Mode : Custom (vs Cinema default)

Picture Settings

* Backlight : 2 vs 5
* Picture/Contrast : 90 vs 90
* Brightness : 54 vs 50
* Color : 48 vs 50
* Hue : 0 vs 0
* Color Temperature : Warm 2 vs Warm 2
* Sharpness : 10 vs 3
* Noise Reduction : Off vs Off
* MPEG Noise Reduction : Off vs Off
* MotionFlow : Off vs Off
* Cinemotion : Auto 1 vs Off

Advanced Menu

* Black Corrector : Off vs Off
* Adv Contrast Enhancer : Off vs Low
* Gamma : 0 vs 0
* Auto Light Limiter : Off vs Off
* Clear White : Off vs Off
* Live Color : Off vs Off
* White Balance: (all 0) vs (all 0)



Not a whole lot of major difference there!

The only significant differences as far as picture quality are Backlight (2 vs 5), Sharpness (10 vs 3), and Adv Contrast Enhancer (Off vs Low).

There would be differences between the two, obviously, but I can't see how a TV set to the above Cinema default settings would look "way off" to me.

Only the backlight setting would be immediately noticeable, I think.



Of course, when considering the validity of this comparison you have to keep in mind that the KDL-46EX700 is a different model from the KDL-46EX710, although the basic design and specifications are similar...


Ken

There are different signal processing parameters under Cinema that Sony engineers have set-up and we do not see in the users settings. This, I suspect may vary more from model to model than from individual set to set. It might be the reason why I find the default Cinema setting so objectionable. If this was the only setting in my Tv and there were no users settings, I don't think I'd be owning it. I would've already took it to the backyard, shoot in and bury it on the spot...just kidding, Ken (:

Other than that, as you say, Backlight is the one setting that would really scream at you. Sharpness would eventually be noted...

I was curious about this when I was experimenting with settings while getting familiar with my new TV.

After experimenting with the various scene modes and settings, I don't think it's true, though.

I'll explain why...



I have my TV set up using the "General" scene mode "slot", customized as follows:

Picture Mode: Custom
Backlight: 5
Picture: 90
Brightness: 50
Color: 50
Hue: 0
Color Temperature: Warm 2
Sharpness: 3
Noise Reduction: Off
MPEG Noise Reduction: Off
Motionflow: standard
CineMotion: Off

Advanced Settings

Black Corrector - OFF
Adv Contrast Enhancer - Off
Gamma - 0
Auto Light Limiter - Off
Clear White - Off
Live Color - Off

White Balance - all 0



Note that my settings are exactly the same as the defaults for the Cinema scene mode, except that I prefer Motionflow set to standard (rather than off), and Adv Contrast Enhancer Off (rather than Low). Except for these two parameters my customized "General" scene mode settings are the same as the defaults for the Cinema scene mode.



If I further alter my preferred settings by turning the Motionflow to Off and turning Adv. Contrast Enhancer to Low, then the settings for the Cinema scene mode and my customized General scene mode are identical, at least for all of the visible/accessible adjustments.



Then... it is easy to compare by quickly switching back and forth between the customized General scene mode and Cinema scene mode as follows:


Put the TV into General scene mode, then push the orange THEATER button on the remote. Sequential pushes instantly toggle the TV in and out of the Cinema scene mode.


When I do this, no matter what moving or paused picture or test pattern I view, I can't see the slightest difference in the picture between the General and Cinema scene modes when both are set up to the same menu values. Bright scene, dark scene, high/low contrast, faces, graphics, text, all look exactly the same for the customized General and default Cinema modes.


(There is one detectable difference, though; the sound changes markedly between the two modes, because I prefer the "Dynamic", "sound Enhancer" and "Surround" effects turned off for my customized General mode, and my Treble and Bass both set to +6 rather than +10.)

(Also, BTW, I have also done a similar comparison by leaving my customized General mode settings exactly as above, and then modifying the Cinema mode settings by switching Adv Contrast Enhancer Off and Motionflow to standard. Results are still identical between the two scene modes.)


If Sony was indeed enabling some additional (inaccessible) features or processing for their Cinema scene mode I would expect SOME visible difference when toggling in and out of Cinema mode, but I don't, no matter how closely I look.


Ken

I have the 55ex710 and notice at certain times while changing channels the image is dim then a second later the image has brightened.

Is it normal for led tvs to have a delay?

Since a few other people have shared the settings they selected on the ex710 series, I figured I'd share mine as well. Just ran it through the test patterns last night after leaving the TV on for about an hour. (Used Avia DVD.) I'm by no means a professional. I just enjoy tweaking things.

I'm running the 55EX710 and sitting about 15-17 feet away from the screen. We decided to mount the TV above the fireplace and tilted the mount about 10 degrees or so to help with the viewing angle. The wall the TV sits on is a dark blue/green color.

For HDMI 1 / HDMI 2
Backlight 5
Picture 90
Brightness 46
Color 59
Hue G3
Color Temperature Warm 2
Sharpness 11
Motionflow standard
Scene Cinema

The settings for the component inputs were a little different, and I don't have them handy at the moment. I can take them down and post them if anyone is interested.

If I didn't post a setting I left it alone. I turned off all the other post processing effects. The sharpness at 11 is higher than most would recommend, but it seems to give crisper images to my untrained eye. I like the appearance of white images under the neutral color temperature, but that seems to make other colors (yellow) lean more towards a neon green.

Immediately after adjustment the picture seemed to have more detail. I do wish the colors were a little brighter overall, but I've locked the settings and will take another look in about a week.

Sorry for the long post.....

Ken,
No matter how I change settings, I can't get as good a picture as the one I have in my General. Even when I set both identically.

Serialmike, the consummate twiker in the EX500 once changed his Cinema settings and published them. After further measurements, he went back to his General settings. He just couldn't get the same results. BTW - His 60" also uses Sharp panels.

Are you using the sh#@y tv speakers?

That's really strange! I wonder why I CAN get identical results when I set both the General and Cinema scene mode to identical settings?


The biggest difference I found between the General scene mode/Custom picture mode defaults and the defaults for Cinema mode was in having Adv Contrast Enhancer set to Low by default in the Cinema mode.

Turning Adv Contrast Enhancer on really spoils things - it brightens and evens out the shadow details (in faces, for example, it looks like a photo where fill-flash is used) and makes dark scenes look spotlit. Dark/night scenes look like moonlight, for example.

Are you sure you have Adv Contrast Enhancer tuned Off (or at least to the same setting) when comparing the two scene modes?

Again, weird!



I only use the built-in speakers for day-to-day viewing of broadcast shows like Jeopardy, Nightly Business Report, News shows, etc.

For movies, "quality" network shows like The Cape or Masterpiece Theater, etc., or anything where I care about the sound I use the stereo!

Ken

By the way, would you mind sharing your preferred settings? If not, I understand!

Ken

Ken,

The difference might be tied to how Sony has the electronics setup for the Sharp panel. Hard to tell. BTW - I have the Adv Contrast Enhancer on OFF. I find it distracting as it keeps changing the contrast up and down.

BTW - I use the AVR with a bunch of speakers/sub on at all times. I tried it the way you use it and found my wife listening to the crappy speakers all the time. This one she doesn't have a choice...well, better than listening to everything coming out of the crappy speakers (;

I'll post my settings after my wife leaves to get our grandson from school. Don't want to interrupt her, however, the settings are very close to yours.

Ok Ken - Here's serialmike's settings. He uses measurements with instruments to setup his 60EX500. I've been using his settings for quite some time and seem to work quite well on my 60EX700 (both tv use Sharp panels).

serialmike
AVS Special Member
*
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: delaware
Posts: 2,130


I have new mind blowing (for me ) settings. They are so different and so much better I am posting in a new post here and my link we go to this post.

These settings provide the following statistics.


As always enjoy guys.

Eye-One LT Meter with HCFR. DVE, THX and Custom patterns

Picture Mode- Custom
Backlight-1 (I use 3 due to bright viewing environment)
Picture-90
Brightness- 50
Color- 50
Hue- 0
Color Temp- Warm2
Sharpness- 0 (I use 3 due to distance to Tv)
Noise Reduction- Off
MPG Noise Red- Off
MotionFlow- Standard
Cinemotion- Auto2
Ambient Sensor- Off

Advanced Settings
Adv Contrast Enhancer-Low (Mike explained why it works on his tv, I have OFF)
Black Corrector- OFF
Gamma- 0
Clear White- Off
Live Color- Off


White Balance-
RGain -8
GGain -2
BGain 0
RBias 0
GBias -1
BBias +8

Picture size-Full Pixel
Power Save-Off

I don't have a game console, but just in case anyone out here does and might be interested.

Game Mode for Xbox Ps3 gaming. (Now metered and fully tested with patterns)

Picture Mode- Graphics
Backlight-1
Picture- 91
Brightness- 50
Color- 50
Hue- 0
Color Temp- Warm1
Sharpness- 1
Noise Reduction- Off
MPG Noise Red- Off
MotionFlow- Off
Cinemotion- Off
Ambient Sensor- Off

Wrong. OB problems - the tv was marketed as the being better than sliced bread. False. Flash lighting / clouding - effects the quality of the set similarly. Lets just hope it doesn't get worse with time.

Sorry to hear YOUR tv SUCKS.

Ken - Here's the result of a professional ISF calibration on another 60EX700. The calibrator is non-other than the renown Chad. He's been doing calibrations around here for as long as I can remember:

02-27-11, 03:29 PM #3113 | Link
Medicine_Man
Chief Lurker

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 8
Results of Professional Calibration
I recently had my Sony KDL-60EX700 professionally calibrated by Chad B. and here are the results of the calibration.

Ambient Sensor: Off
Picture Mode: Custom
Backlight: Min
Picture: Max
Brightness: 48
Color: 50
Hue: 0
Color Temp: Warm 2
Sharpness: Min
Noise Reduction: Off
MPEG Noise Reduction: Off
Motionflow: Off
Cinemotion: Auto 1
Black Corrector: Off
Adv. Contrast Enhancement: Off
Gamma: -1 (changed to "0" after watching some Blu-rays)
Auto Light Limiter: Off
Clear White: Off
Live Color: Off
White Balance
R-Gain: -8
G-Gain: 0
B-Gain: -15
R-Bias: 0
G-Bias: -4
B-Bias: 2
Picture Size: Full Pixel
Power Savings: Off

Chad noted that the RGB Balance needed the most work while the Gamut CIE (color purity) was excellent out of the box for my Sony. Chad noticed no issues with the edge lighting or cloudiness that many of you have seen. The "before" and "after" calibration charts are very interesting. Overall, it's worth the expense to know that I have properly calibrated image so that when I catch up on the last 6 years worth of movies on Blu-ray (blame the kids), I will be viewing them at their best. It's also nice to have my Sony evaluated in the same manner that Home Theater Magazine provides in its technical review of televisions.

Is it a night-and-day difference between the prior settings (culled from this very forum) and the calibrated settings? That is hard to say without being able to see both images simultaneously. I will say that shadow detail and dark scenes appear better than before.

I also let Chad loose on my Onkyo 608 and the sound quality is much improved over the plain Audyssey setup.

I hope these settings provide a starting point for your televisions...as always YMMV.

Thanks, hughh. Cool!

Looks Like my settings aren't too far off from yours.


I have my Ambience Sensor On and prefer my backlight set to 5, because (except for "movie nights" ) most of the time I watch TV in a normally lighted room.


I'll have to give serialmike's White Balance adjustments a try. I've never bothered to fiddle around with these, because I don't really have a problem with the color balance as set to the defaults (all 0).

I wonder,though, if I would be able perceive any significant difference on most programming, unless I was comparing a given picture to some sort of reference...


Ken

Right! However, speaking from experience, the 60EX700 and 60EX500 settings
seem to be quite close. The fact that they share Sharp panels and it's associated processing seem to be a determining factor.

Anyway, it's always a good starting point.

On the EX700 and EX500 from what I have seen, Ambient Sensor is detrimental to the pq.

Interesting how much variation there is between these two White Balance palettes, and how different they both are from other suggested settings I've seen.


I've made comments in previous posts (on this forum and others) about how most of the suggested settings I've found on the 'net/forums are "all over the place", especially with respect to white balance.


I guess that's another reason why I haven't tried messing with my White Balance. As I've said before, I have a hunch at least some of the difference between White Balance adjustments is due to variability between individual display panels, ambient lighting, calibrator's judgement, etc.

Ken

I agree completely.

But If I turn it off the picture is just too dark in a moderately lit room when the other settings are properly adjusted.

It works well as a compromise for non-critical viewing.


The lights go off, along with the Ambient Sensor, on "movie night"!!

Ken

Quite the opposite form the other series tv. The AS just make the pq too dark and crushes the blacks to the point that you can't hardly see any detail on anything black.

On the subject of White Balance, that seems to be the most difference you can find between sets of the same model. Fortunately, it's not so difficult to properly set it, if you have a test Blue-ray disk.

On most White Balance settings from serialmike, I have always had to make some final adjustments. This time he got it just right and it gives my sets my tv beautifully! We'll see how it looks under my test disk, whenever I find time to check it!

Many of the parameters on these Sony EX series are quite similar.

You have my permission to skip over any of my postings, going back to the first few pages of this thread when the EX710 first came out (;

wtf are you talking about? do you even know what OB means or what it refers to? you are truly a clown to be ignored from this point forward

Immediately after adjustment the picture seemed to have more detail. I do wish the colors were a little brighter overall, but I've locked the settings and will take another look in about a week.>>>

Your set would probably benefit from a test disk. It will show how well it can reproduce the colors.

Damn, things re not looking good for our Cardinals...best two pitchers injured!

While I haven't delved into the service menu on my EX-710 I've spent a lot of time exploring with my previous set, an A2000 SXRD Sony that gradually turned green on me.

There are "sub" settings in the service menu for all of the user menu parameters--baseline settings if you will. These are saved per picture mode and per input, so they are not the same for "vivid" vs "custom", etc. For example the "sub" sharpness setting for vivid mode is higher than for custom, hence a setting of 5 in the user menu in Vivid mode is higher than a setting of 5 in custom mode.

There are also sub settings for color balance (gain and bias for red, green, and blue) and they are "coarser" than the user menu settings (smaller numerical changes make much larger differences). I was able to nurse an extra year out of my greening SXRD by turning down the G gain and bias in the service menu when the range allowed in the user menu no longer sufficed.

So basically the engineers can and do set different baselines for user adjustments in different picture modes. My guess is that in the case of Cinema vs Custom there's probably not enough variation in sub settings to make much visible difference, but try using the same user settings in Vivid and Custom and there should be a quite visible difference between the two modes.

"wtf" am I talking about? Your ob/gyn and your time of the month.

The optical block issues from way back and the current back lighting (clouding, flash lighting) issues are similar in that they both distort the imaging (some more than others).
Why is that difficult for you to understand?

First, I should clarify that my television is a KDL-46EX710, and so my comments are appropriate for this thread...


I agree with litew8 that (as I mentioned in a previous post) comparisons of fine calibration details between televisions of different generations should be taken with a grain of salt.

But I don't think the comparisons are as "apples-to-oranges" as they might seem (actually more like "heirloom Spitzenberg-to-modern Fuji hybrid" ).



The "suggested settings" I have seen for models from the 700 and 710 series have been pretty close. Both series' BRAVIA Engines are of the same generation, with similar image processing algorithms, and the Scene/picture modes and menu options in both generations are the same.


I think it is significant that hughh and I essentially agree on the "best" settings for our TVs, despite the fact that his is from the previous generation.


I assume that the same engineering teams worked on developing the 700 and 710 series televisions, and were shooting for similar performance. The design standards and benchmarks have not changed.

Also, as suggested in Steve S's post above, the engineers should have almost unlimited ability to tweak the effect of the various menu options during finalization of their designs.


That said, I AM disappointed that of the settings recommendations I have found that have been published/posted by experienced/professional technicians, ALL have been for the 700 series. Why has the 710 series been ignored? (I mean, the 720 series is coming out now!!)


WE'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!

Ken

No doubt about the Cardinals. Hopefully Carp can bounce back from the hammy. It'll be good to get baseball back after such a long winter in the Lou. My family is praying that Garcia can duplicate last year's results.

I turned off the ambient sensor last night while watching Colbert. BAM! There are those colors I was looking for. I'm going to run the set through the AVIA patterns again tonight with the AS off to see if it makes a difference.

I'm a little nervous to tackle the advanced white adjustments. I don't fully understand the red/blue/green pattern that contains the empahasis percentages. I understand that you are suppossed to look throught the color filters and make the 0% match the background. However, I'm not sure which settings on the TV to adjust to get the result.