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Hard Disk File System investigation for the Magnavox 537, 535, 533, 515, 513, 2160A, 2160, 2080 &... - Page 6

post #151 of 182
Thread Starter 
NOSTRADIMWIT

If your new drive doesn't work in the computer, the Magnavox might have set the spin-up on power up to off. There is directions on changing that back in the other thread.

As for how much data the Magnavox writes to create the file system. I'm not sure but the filesystem is just over a Gigabyte and that is it. The rest of the space is for the mov file where the video lives and it doesn't care if there is garbage there or not. I've always blanked out a drive before starting any testing so I really can't say how much is written. I could make a drive with all 0xFFs and see what gets changed, at least the first Gigabyte. Not very useful information so I probably won't do it.
post #152 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOSTRADIMWIT View Post

And ya ... I hear ya ... stop your whining ... still planning to do the iBored rip.

Any luck with that? wink.gif
post #153 of 182
Don't MAKE me come over there!!!

OK ... tried the iBored rip using the following instructions:

RIP/SAVE the first 100K of Maggie HDD:

I use iBored:

1. If running Vista or newer, you will have to run it as Administrator. There is Mac and Linux versions as well.
2. Select the drive and click view.
3. On the menu do Disk->Write Blocks To File...
4. Start Block = 0, Block Count = 200,000, try leaving block size at 512 for now, might need to change it to 4096
5. Press okay, file chooser dialog will open, give it a file name

Er ... that works out to 100,000KB? As in 100MB ... that right?

PS ... iBored reads the drive size as 1863 ... that old school rounding error is really starting to show, eh. biggrin.gif

Also, VIEW STRUCTURE shows a blank window. Didn't seem like there was much in the way of drive activity with the window open, so I don't figure there was a whole lotta poking around going on in there ...

One other thing maybe worth mentioning. I did leave the block size set at 512, then figured why not run the dump at 4096 also just in case. When I changed the block size and entered the start and stop blocks, I got a "block size 512" message above the OK button. I assUme that was iBored telling me that's the actual block size it found on the drive? Either way, didn't affect the size of the dump file.

*****************

Did some poking around, and the only activity I see in the drive is in blocks 2,4, and 5. Here's screen prints of just those.







Doesn't mean much to me ... maybe you can at least figure out where the video block starts from what you see here. Luck wit it.
Edited by NOSTRADIMWIT - 12/23/12 at 1:42pm
post #154 of 182
Thread Starter 
Okay, the sector 2 looks the same as my 2160A model. I was hoping they would have revised this sector so we could tell these different filesystems apart.

Ops, I made the number of blocks too large like you said. If this was the new drive it would be mostly blank so it might compress down to a small enough zip file to post. I think the old limit was 100K file. You will probably need to rerip it. But on the first screen you can do a File->"File Open.." command and open the image file you ripped. And then split it off of that file.

I could look at the images you posted of sectors 4 and 5. That is the directory listing for the "files" in the filesystem. It would be easier for me to use iBored on the zipped file when you posted it. The way to read it is in the follow post.

ClearToLand posting.

He pulled together a few of my postings into a little book. Post 6 and 11 from there should help you read the directory listing you posted the images to. Again it is faster to open the file you saved than to get it from the hard drive.

Let me know how it goes NOSTRADIMWIT.
post #155 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOSTRADIMWIT View Post

PS ... iBored reads the drive size as 1863 ... that old school rounding error is really starting to show, eh.

Hard drive manufacturers have always measured and advertised size in decimal multiples, powers of 10. MB, GB & TB are decimal multiple prefixes. MiB, GiB & TiB are binary multiple prefixes for powers of 2, what computers use. When computers refer to them they have traditionally omitted the "i" in stating unit size, causing confusion with decimal multiple amounts. A 2TB HD is 2,000,000,000,000,000 bytes, which is 1,862.64515 GiB, 2,000 GB and1.81899 TiB.
Edited by mrmazda - 12/24/12 at 10:34am
post #156 of 182
Looky what I got you for christmas ... a great steaming pile of ones and zeros!

http://www.brainfartz.com/images/Misc/wd2tb_maggie_512block.zip

... 230K, so I posted it up to my great steaming pile of website. Let me know if you have any problems opening it, as my computer is kinda sorta stuck between a couple different zip programs. I installed Zip7 a bit back to handle some of the newer formats. This should be using the default zipper that came bundled in XP.

PS ... you can only open up one zip file before bedtime tonite ... the rest will have to wait for the morning!
post #157 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOSTRADIMWIT View Post

Looky what I got you for Christmas ... a great steaming pile of ones and zeros!

Thanks for posting this. The filesystem has changed very little. The Title, Chapter and Map files got larger to handle more titles and chapters. This is helping my theory about how to hook the title to the chapter and map files together.

Anyway, you can get a few more byes out of your 2 TB drive if you change the following.

Sector 4 starting at byte 4:
Change number of sectors used from 1904751476 to 2150722869, or in the hex editor it will be 35 ED 69 74 => 35 6D 31 80

Sector 4 starting at byte 8:
Change number of sectors not used from 1953930105 to 1756306299, or in the hex editor it will be 79 9B 76 74 => 7B 1B AF 68

Sector 5 starting at byte 1C4:
Change number of sectors for MOV file from 1949794304 to 2147418112, or in the hex editor it will be 00 80 37 74 => 00 00 FF 7F

This will up the allocation units from 59,503 to 65,534.

It is only 96 Megs more that what was available before so not much added space.

We might be able to do one more allocation unit but lets not push our luck.

Allocation units are 32768 blocks or 16 Megs each where the older filesystem they were 16384 blocks or 8 Megs each.

A side affect is the "Title Split" feature would have twice the space up for grabs if one of the split titles were deleted.

To extend this file system to 2 GB, the allocation units could be doubled again to 65536 blocks or 32 Megs each.

My guess is the new 2 TB drive did report a few hours more than your old 1 TB drive. But it wasn't double like you wanted to see.

I have to go wrap presents now.
post #158 of 182
Forgot to post up a couple pics from the grand experiment ... 2tb or not 2tb ... that was the question ... tongue.gif

The 537 naked ... I imagine it looks about the same as the rest of the 5xx units:



And here's the results after initializing the drive with a 9 second rip:



Looks like I gained a whole hour over what the book shows for the 1tb drive at that speed. Joy. I did verify it was counting down correctly after adding a couple hours of whatever prior to pulling the drive and going back to the original.

***********

Something else I forgot to mention. The OEM hard drive is a Seagate Pipeline HD specifically designed for 24/7 video streaming.

5900 RPM 64MB Cache
SATA 3.0Gb/s

And no longer stocked at NewEgg, so probably out of production. Amazon shows three in stock at one of their "parking lot" sellers.

http://www.seagate.com/internal-hard-drives/consumer-electronics/pipeline-hd/?sku=ST1000VM002

***********
Edited by NOSTRADIMWIT - 12/30/12 at 5:25pm
post #159 of 182
Thread Starter 
NOSTRADIMWIT

You should cross post if you didn't already. The group in the other forum would love this.

It looks much like my older 2160A. They said the redesign was for the turner and I bet that is all the hardware they changed. If you look in the other thread you will see questions about different burners and what we would be willing to pay for the upgrade. My guess is they will play it safe and not even go to a dual layer red laser DVD.

Not getting as much done during the break here as I would have liked. I'll see about looking at my test 40 Gig hard drive.
post #160 of 182
PETER THE GEEK

(Stop yelling at me!!) tongue.gif

Will do ... hadn't realized there were any internal changes other than the HDD ... from the number of open spots and extra holes, looks like they'be been using the same board since the beginning of time. I also posted up a higher res version of the chassis pic if you're interested in taking a peek.

The Maggie 537 - NUDIE PIC! (535kb download)

Sorry but all the pics I took shadowed the DVD drive itself. I can get a couple decent pics if needed when I jump in to add the eSATA jack and transplant the HDD to an external dock. I could also light it better ... was more worried about not blowing anything up the first time in. Second time's always easier ... KABOOM!

Was hoping for a comment or two on the hard drive ... I like the idea of the 24/7 streaming capabilities, and I can vouch for the super low noise levels. I can stick my ear right up to the box and not hear a thing, and get none of the clicky whoosh stuff some drives make. The WD Green drives are pretty quiet too, but don't spec out as well as the Seagate for heat generation, mean time failure, and all that.

PS ... what other forum? You mean the other 1.4m post thread?
post #161 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOSTRADIMWIT View Post

Was hoping for a comment or two on the hard drive ... I like the idea of the 24/7 streaming capabilities, and I can vouch for the super low noise levels. I can stick my ear right up to the box and not hear a thing, and get none of the clicky whoosh stuff some drives make.
My 515 HDD makes clicking noises but my 513 HDD is silent.
post #162 of 182
Thread Starter 
I put in a 2.5" video rated Western Digital unit, WD5000BUDT in my 2160A. It has 32 Megabyte cache and is a 500 Gig hard drive. Since it is a notebook hard drive it is even lower power than the green Western Digital drives.

As for the OEM drive, that is a nice one. On the outer ring it will transfer about 160 Megabytes/sec to or from the platter. I really doubt the IDE controller on the micro board can take the data that fast.

It is nice to see that they are putting nice hard drives in and not going for the lowest cost parts only. I do like Seagate better than Western Digital per my experience at my previous job. We shipped film scanner units with computers to drive them. So I've tested a few hard drives in my day.

Yes I meant the thread with 1.4 million posts on it. They love pictures.
post #163 of 182
Lookie what I found on the front porch this morning ...

post #164 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOSTRADIMWIT View Post

Lookie what I found on the front porch this morning ...


Now WHAT might you have in mind for those?
post #165 of 182
Guys, since it seems the topic of this thread has changed a little, let me ask here a question I asked in the "other" thread...

Has anyone tried putting a 1TB drive in either of the other two new models, and initialized the drive? If so, did it work and turn the other machine into a 537?
post #166 of 182
Hey ... read the thread ... it's not like it's 22739 posts ... and counting ... biggrin.gif

Not much of a change if any ... the topic is still hard drives and their foibles re: the Maggie?

Short recap ... I'm working on setting up a hard drive farm for the Maggie. Remove the original drive, add an eSATA jack to the back, plug a dock/duplicator into that, and plug the original Maggie drive into that. The three new drives are an exact match for the 1tb OEM drive and will provide one additional movie drive and two mirror backups for safety.

As far as whether the other new machines can handle 1tb ... sounds like you just volunteered. tongue.gif

Best I can tell you is the 1tb 537 works with a 2tb drive, but there's no increase in storage capacity. If I'm reading this right, TheGeek has confirmed via some data rips I sent him that:

- The file structure hasn't changed much if any from the 2160 series,
- Any backdoor tweaks to the hard drive wouldn't result in any apppreciable increase in potential storage,
- Any hard limits for drive size are apparently built into the firmware, and
- We're not holding our breath waiting for an update that would increase the 1tb limit built into the 537. (mutter mutter grumble)

Maybe compare firmware versions with the other current series Maggies?

Anyway, now I got all the parts I need to make the HDD farm happen here - just waiting for the correct alignment of the planets ... any day now. Here it comes ... soon ... (tap tap tap) ...
Edited by NOSTRADIMWIT - 1/8/13 at 11:26am
post #167 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gastrof View Post

Guys, since it seems the topic of this thread has changed a little, let me ask here a question I asked in the "other" thread...
Has anyone tried putting a 1TB drive in either of the other two new models, and initialized the drive? If so, did it work and turn the other machine into a 537?

Since the firmware on all the 53X units are the same, I would infer that they would all have the same limit of 1 TByte. The only difference between the three units is the size of the hard drive shipped with it.
post #168 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOSTRADIMWIT View Post

Anyway, now I got all the parts I need to make the HDD farm happen here - just waiting for the correct alignment of the planets ... any day now. Here it comes ... soon ... (tap tap tap) ...

I hope the planets align quickly for your sake. Should be fun!
post #169 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTheGeek View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gastrof View Post

Guys, since it seems the topic of this thread has changed a little, let me ask here a question I asked in the "other" thread...
Has anyone tried putting a 1TB drive in either of the other two new models, and initialized the drive? If so, did it work and turn the other machine into a 537?

Since the firmware on all the 53X units are the same, I would infer that they would all have the same limit of 1 TByte. The only difference between the three units is the size of the hard drive shipped with it.


You do realize you may have just unleashed a monster, don't you?

Heh heh heh... tongue.gif
post #170 of 182
Quote:
If you're referring to making a bit-by-bit clone of the original HDD to a larger replacement HDD, while retaining the additional capacity of the replacement drive, this has been attempted without success many times before.
Has anything changed regarding this statement from 2 1/2 years ago?

I have some recordings on the original drive of a 2160a that I want to save, but I want to upgrade to a 500GB drive (which I already have). Isn't there some image program that can just copy the 160 to the 500 in DOS like there is for TiVo?
After all, if it can be done with one of those with those TiVo's, I'm surprised it can't be done in such a way so the deck sees it as a existing drive without re-initializing it again, wiping out the recordings.

.
Edited by videobruce - 3/22/13 at 9:07am
post #171 of 182
Shot in the dark here ...

- Install the 500gb drive in the Maggie and let it do the format thing. It should initialize with a blank index and the full 500gb capacity. Or whatever the firmware limit might be on your particular model.

- Use backup software to copy the contents of the smaller drive to the newly initialized drive. I'm a big fan of Acronis TrueImage for that kind of stuff ... not clone ... copy without compression. I use Acronis TrueImage, but most any freeware backup software should work. You should now have (hopefully) the full 500gb capacity WITH the Maggie's unique format. This all assUmes the backup software you're using can recognize and work with the drives once the Maggie has had it's way with them. Just be very careful with your drive pointers as you obviously don't want to get the selection bass ackwards and overwrite the original drive. That would be a dOH! moment of monumental proportions ...

- Here's where we find out how smart the Maggie is ... I expect it will still have issues with the drive, but with any kind of luck, there's a repair utility that can give you access to the increased capacity AND still preserve the original content.

That don't work, try expanding the drive using a partition resizer utility. I just used EaseUS Partition Manager to shrink an existing OS drive on my HTPC so I can dual boot into either XP or W8, and it worked perfectly.

http://www.partition-tool.com/personal.htm

It's free for personal use and handy to have around anyway. No promises on the Maggie - are you feeling lucky? Well are ya??

Be sure to post back with the results good or bad ... I'd hate to think somebody figured out something that works and didn't bother passing it on ...

PS ... I haven't given up on my "drive farm" on the 537. Got caught up in other stuff. Current status recording at SPP = 246 movies, 158 hours available ... gotta love them 1tb drives, eh.
Edited by NOSTRADIMWIT - 3/22/13 at 11:20am
post #172 of 182
What follows is built on annotated sector dumps from the program DFSee for 2 H2160MW9As, 1 MDR513 & 1 MDR515. First after machine and HD info line for each HD are sector ID data and the first 32 bytes starting the third sector (LSN#2), followed by sector ID data and the first 16 byes of the fifth sector LSN#4). Last in each block is the hex to decimal equation for the size included in each fifth sector.
Code:
2160#1 160GB Hitachi HDT721016SLA380:           312,581,808 512 byte sectors
CRC=65ddd6fe; LSN : 0x00000002 = Unidentified data Cyl    0 H:  0 S: 3 00000002
-00000-  04 00 00 00 0d 00 00 00  64 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 [........d.......]
-00010-  48 44 44 46 73 20 30 30  2e 30 37 20 00 00 00 00 [HDDFs 00.07 ....]
CRC=6bae9689; LSN : 0x00000004 = Unidentified data Cyl    0 H:  0 S: 5 00000004
-00000-  b0 9e a1 12 df 23 a0 12  cf 7a 01 00 02 00 00 00 [.....#...z......]
        0x12A19EB0 = 312,581,808

2160#2 160GB Seagate ST3160813AS:               312,581,808 512 byte sectors
CRC=65ddd6fe; LSN : 0x00000002 = Unidentified data Cyl    0 H:  0 S: 3 00000002
-00000-  04 00 00 00 0d 00 00 00  64 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 [........d.......]
-00010-  48 44 44 46 73 20 30 30  2e 30 37 20 00 00 00 00 [HDDFs 00.07 ....]
CRC=6bae9689; LSN : 0x00000004 = Unidentified data Cyl    0 H:  0 S: 5 00000004
-00000-  b0 9e a1 12 df 23 a0 12  cf 7a 01 00 02 00 00 00 [.....#...z......]
        0x12A19EB0 = 312,581,808

513 #2 Hitachi HCS5C1032CLA382:                 625,142,448 512 byte sectors
CRC=65ddd6fe; LSN : 0x00000002 = Unidentified data Cyl    0 H:  0 S: 3 00000002
-00000-  04 00 00 00 0d 00 00 00  64 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 [........d.......]
-00010-  48 44 44 46 73 20 30 30  2e 30 37 20 00 00 00 00 [HDDFs 00.07 ....]
CRC=ee3caa71; LSN : 0x00000004 = Unidentified data Cyl    0 H:  0 S: 5 00000004
-00000-  b0 ea 42 25 e3 a3 40 25  cb 46 02 00 02 00 00 00 [..B%..@%.F......]
        0x2542EAB0 = 625,142,448

515 500GB Western Digital WD5000AVDS-63U7B1:    976,773,168 512 byte sectors
CRC=65ddd6fe; LSN : 0x00000002 = Unidentified data Cyl    0 H:  0 S: 3 00000002
-00000-  04 00 00 00 0d 00 00 00  64 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 [........d.......]
-00010-  48 44 44 46 73 20 30 30  2e 30 37 20 00 00 00 00 [HDDFs 00.07 ....]
CRC=db5f4e0c; LSN : 0x00000004 = Unidentified data Cyl    0 H:  0 S: 5 00000004
-00000-  30 60 38 3a e7 23 35 3a  47 3c 03 00 02 00 00 00 [0`8:.#5:G<......]
        0x3A386030 = 976,773,168

As you can see, nothing differs among the third sectors. The main reason I bother to post this is that post 106 & thereabouts omits the 320GB size data points and speaks sizes only in decimal, while sector editors speak hex. What prodded me to revisit this was Nostradimwit's last post that seems to think there's any useful relationship between a PC's filesystems and tools for manipulating them, and the Funai HD system being evaluated in this thread.
post #173 of 182
NOSTRADIMWIT; Thanks for the idea. I already have and use both programs. Partition Manager is a great program, far superior than what M$ gives you, but that isn't saying much. wink.gif

But, won't copying the original disc to another Funai initialized drive wipe out any ID'ing data on it that the recorder placed on it? The "repair utility" you speak of, that is the one that is in the Funai? As far as using a partition resizer utility, that would be if after the coping, the recorder sees the new drive as another 160GB?
Edited by videobruce - 3/22/13 at 7:03pm
post #174 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Partition Manager is a great program, far superior than what M$ gives you, but that isn't saying much.

Funai HDs have no partitions, and no filesystem like any recognized by programs like Partition Manager. You need to read well up-thread to get an idea what's involved to move content from a smaller Funai HD to a larger HD.
post #175 of 182
Maybe you should direct your comments to the member who mentioned both in the first place.
I just praised a program that I have used before with no reference to using it here.
post #176 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOSTRADIMWIT View Post

I just used EaseUS Partition Manager to shrink an existing OS drive on my HTPC so I can dual boot into either XP or W8, and it worked perfectly.

http://www.partition-tool.com/personal.htm

It's free for personal use and handy to have around anyway.
Any place to get it other than CNet. I refuse to install their stub installer on my system in order to download software.
post #177 of 182
post #178 of 182
Thread Starter 
If you want to resize a filesystem I have a procedure here:

Resize from 160 to 500 Gig hard drive.

The method two makes it so you don't have to do any hex editing. Just copy two large segments and make sure the used bit field is blank on the second half. If you do the first method you have to edit the directory listings to lengthen MPG_SEGMPG_SEGM.DAT file where the used allocation bit fields are stored. Then you have to move the start location of AV001_0AV001_00.MPG where the video data lives and extend it out to the end of the hard drive.

I've been very busy lately so I couldn't look into iBored scripting feature is has now. Maybe I'll have time to look into automating this someday. Please don't hold your breath.
post #179 of 182
I will have to take time to digest all of that.
I thought I had a 2160A, but it is only a 2160. The spare drive have is SATA. I can't see spending $$ on a more expensive IDE drive, since it would make more sense just to sell this and buy a 5xx series.
post #180 of 182
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

I will have to take time to digest all of that.
I thought I had a 2160A, but it is only a 2160. The spare drive have is SATA. I can't see spending $$ on a more expensive IDE drive, since it would make more sense just to sell this and buy a 5xx series.

Too bad, I was hoping that someone other than me could upsize a Magnavox file system.
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