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JVC 2011 models & MSRP: RS40 50 60 & HD250. - Page 195  

post #5821 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

ProjectorCentral has a calculator that estimates how bright an image will be for a given projector, screen size, and gain: http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epso...ulator-pro.htm I've inserted a link to the Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080 since its 1200 Lumens is a match to the new JVC models. A 72" wide, 1.3 gain screen should provide an "Image Brightness: 22 fL". If you were to upgrade to a 2.4 gain screen (Da-Lite High Power) the image brightness would jump to 40 fL. If your current screen doesn't have the horsepower you prefer for 3D you may need to investigate screen upgrade options.

There's something misleading with that calculation if you have an actual 1200 lumen output. An actual 1200 lumen projector output onto a 72" wide screen with a gain of 1.3 will produce much more like 65 Foot Lamberts (FL). It appears the Projector Central calculator uses an estimate of the calibrated D65 light output for the specific projector you select, which in the case of the Epson 1080 is much lower than ANSI 1200 lumens (closer to 1/3 that value). Below is what Projector Central says about its Calculator (LINK):
"When it comes to home theater projectors, brighter is definitely not better. What you want is a projector that produces enough light to fill your screen with good contrast, but not so bright that it creates eye fatigue when viewed for any length of time.

It is safe to ignore the published ANSI lumen rating—it is irrelevant for a variety of reasons. Instead, use our Projection Calculator (also available from the left navigation bar) to determine the brightness characteristics of the model you are looking at. It lets you factor in your screen size and its gain rating if you know it. In a dark room, a luminance level on the screen in the range of 12 to 22 fL is in the ideal comfort range, and the calculator defaults to 16 fL to give you a starting point.

In theory, lumens and foot-Lamberts are related—one foot-Lambert of luminance is equal to one lumen per square foot. But there is no direct relationship between the ANSI lumen ratings from the manufacturer and the foot-Lambert measurements as reported in the Calculator. That is because the Calculator factors in reduced lumen outputs for video optimization and average lamp usage, in order to estimate a typical viewing experience.
If you don't want to set up a dark home theater and would rather have some low ambient light, you may prefer to get the screen luminance up into the range of 30 to 50 fL. A brighter picture will help compensate for the loss of contrast caused by ambient light. For each model you may be considering, the Calculator can be used to give you estimates of the screen size and screen gain needed to get that brighter picture."
A good example using the Projector Central Calculator is to select a JVC HD950 projector (with a manufacturer rating of 900 ANSI lumen, but unlike the Epson model you selected, JVC rated lumens are closer to the actual lumens of output calibrated at D65 when the projector has a new bulb). With a 72" wide screen with a gain of 1.3 the calculator shows a much brighter 45 FL of brightness. It appears the Projector Central Calculator uses 700 lumens for their calculation when the JVC HD950 is selected and I would assume they did this to reflect the effect of some bulb aging. This should be in the ballpark of (or perhaps just a little less than) what you could expect using the new JVC projectors (i.e., RS40. RS50, RS60) at their D65 calibrated setting and using the high lamp mode and the manual iris set to fully open (where they my have 1000+ lumen output with a new bulb and perhaps still have 800 lumens after a moderate number of hours of use).
post #5822 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

What in the 3D setting does "2D" mean? Could it be it supports 2D ==> 3D conversion?? That would be unexpectedly cool if so!

Man I hope that jumpiness when the glasses were put in front of the webcam isn't what we'll see in the final versions; that was bad!


.


2D in the 3D settings simply means 3D off. There is no 2D to 3D conversion feature, and this is a good thing when you see what can be done in real time on 2D footage: mainly bad things.

You can't judge 3D quality from a youtube clip watched on a 2D monitor (not that you can judge 2D either). Putting the glasses in front of the camcorder was I guess an attempt to show the change in brightness, not how you're supposed to see the content when you wear the glasses. If you don't watch the clip with the glasses synced to the content (and with the right part of the picture going to each eye), you can't even start to assess what it would look like when wearing the glasses.
post #5823 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by lebloganthrope View Post

it's a X7 coming directly from JVC France with the right package including glasses and emitter, so it should be a final version

It's not final production model. Mine came from JVC Finland in final packaging and all that, but it turned out to be a pre-production model. Actual production units have not left Japan yet.
post #5824 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

There's something misleading with that calculation if you have an actual 1200 lumen output. An actual 1200 lumen projector output onto a 72" wide screen with a gain of 1.3 will produce much more like 65 Foot Lamberts (FL). It appears the Projector Central calculator uses an estimate of the calibrated D65 light output for the specific projector you select, which in the case of the Epson 1080 is much lower than ANSI 1200 lumens (closer to 1/3 that value). Below is what Projector Central says about its Calculator (LINK):
"When it comes to home theater projectors, brighter is definitely not better. What you want is a projector that produces enough light to fill your screen with good contrast, but not so bright that it creates eye fatigue when viewed for any length of time.

It is safe to ignore the published ANSI lumen ratingit is irrelevant for a variety of reasons. Instead, use our Projection Calculator (also available from the left navigation bar) to determine the brightness characteristics of the model you are looking at. It lets you factor in your screen size and its gain rating if you know it. In a dark room, a luminance level on the screen in the range of 12 to 22 fL is in the ideal comfort range, and the calculator defaults to 16 fL to give you a starting point.

In theory, lumens and foot-Lamberts are relatedone foot-Lambert of luminance is equal to one lumen per square foot. But there is no direct relationship between the ANSI lumen ratings from the manufacturer and the foot-Lambert measurements as reported in the Calculator. That is because the Calculator factors in reduced lumen outputs for video optimization and average lamp usage, in order to estimate a typical viewing experience.
If you don't want to set up a dark home theater and would rather have some low ambient light, you may prefer to get the screen luminance up into the range of 30 to 50 fL. A brighter picture will help compensate for the loss of contrast caused by ambient light. For each model you may be considering, the Calculator can be used to give you estimates of the screen size and screen gain needed to get that brighter picture."
A good example using the Projector Central Calculator is to select a JVC HD950 projector (with a manufacturer rating of 900 ANSI lumen, but unlike the Epson model you selected, JVC rated lumens are closer to the actual lumens of output calibrated at D65 when the projector has a new bulb). With a 72" wide screen with a gain of 1.3 the calculator shows a much brighter 45 FL of brightness. It appears the Projector Central Calculator uses 700 lumens for their calculation when the JVC HD950 is selected and I would assume they did this to reflect the effect of some bulb aging. This should be in the ballpark of (or perhaps just a little less than) what you could expect using the new JVC projectors (i.e., RS40. RS50, RS60) at their D65 calibrated setting and using the high lamp mode and the manual iris set to fully open (where they my have 1000+ lumen output with a new bulb and perhaps still have 800 lumens after a moderate number of hours of use).

If Grampa's screen's real image brightness is ~ 45 fL, then the 3D figure should be in the ballpark of 9 fL, right? That should be sufficient brightness if he has good light control.

Thanks Ron. Happy Thanksgiving y'all!
post #5825 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

2D in the 3D settings simply means 3D off. There is no 2D to 3D conversion feature, and this is a good thing when you see what can be done in real time on 2D footage: mainly bad things.

You can't judge 3D quality from a youtube clip watched on a 2D monitor (not that you can judge 2D either). Putting the glasses in front of the camcorder was I guess an attempt to show the change in brightness, not how you're supposed to see the content when you wear the glasses. If you don't watch the clip with the glasses synced to the content (and with the right part of the picture going to each eye), you can't even start to assess what it would look like when wearing the glasses.

Makes sense thanks Manni!
post #5826 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

It's not final production model. Mine came from JVC Finland in final packaging and all that, but it turned out to be a pre-production model. Actual production units have not left Japan yet.

yes, you seems to be right, it is confirmed also here in France that projectors are still in Japan. I removed the remark to avoid confusion
post #5827 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

If Grampa's screen's real image brightness is ~ 45 fL, then the 3D figure should be in the ballpark of 9 fL, right? That should be sufficient brightness if he has good light control.

Thanks Ron. Happy Thanksgiving y'all!

If 3D mode were to have the same lumen ouput level as for 2D mode, then for 3D mode he should have (using his 72" wide 1.3 gain screen and with the typical light loss thru the 3D glasses) between 7.5 and 9 FL and that's after some time on the lamp and he would probably have around 10 FL, or a little more, with a new lamp. However there seems to be a big unknown as to what the 3D mode lumens output will actually be for these new JVC projectors. Two reviewers that have evaluated pre-production versions reported the 3D mode cut the light output significantly (down to around 600 lumens) while another forum member who recently saw a demo reported that on the unit he saw the 3D mode light output was actuaaly higher than for the 2D mode. We will have to wait for the final production units to arrive for review (perhaps as early as next week) then see what the real story is for the 3D mode on these projectors.

Happy Turkey Day (otherswise known as Thanksgiving for us Americans - about a month too late for the Canadians and for the Europeans just think of it as a fall harvest holiday).
post #5828 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

It's not final production model. Mine came from JVC Finland in final packaging and all that, but it turned out to be a pre-production model. Actual production units have not left Japan yet.

Are you saying there is a delay then? Because if for example in the US they are expecting to distribute on Tuesday next week, they would already have had to have left Japan by now and be in transit somewhere.
post #5829 of 8828
Ron,

I think the consensus is around 200 lumens through the glasses with a new lamp, short throw. Cine4home and Petri both reported this figure.
post #5830 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

Ron,

I think the consensus is around 200 lumens through the glasses with a new lamp, short throw. Cine4home and Petri both reported this figure.

My point (a few posts back) was both Petri and Ekki were reviewing pre-production units (at the least firmware) and the 3D mode light output on the projectors they had may not be the same as for the actual production units, and there is some evidence that may be the case. So we won't know for certain until reviewers receive actual production units. Of couse what light level you actually get thru the glasses will also depend on the screen size and gain as well as to what extent (if at all) the specific screen maintains the horizontal polarization of the light that is coming from the projector (the more the screen maintains the polarization the lower the light loss thru the 3D glasses).
post #5831 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

It's not final production model. Mine came from JVC Finland in final packaging and all that, but it turned out to be a pre-production model. Actual production units have not left Japan yet.

Ours have left Japan and are in the hands of JVC Australia. Our JVC rep said that Australia will get the first batch this time. We should receive some today if all goes well.
post #5832 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Are you saying there is a delay then? Because if for example in the US they are expecting to distribute on Tuesday next week, they would already have had to have left Japan by now and be in transit somewhere.

"They'll arrive first week of December", I was told today, so I guess units (allocated for Finland) are about to be shipped.
post #5833 of 8828
Do you mean 'quiet'...? :-P
post #5834 of 8828
If that's true about australia, then when will they hit the street? And what price? AUD
post #5835 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

It's quite round here...

I said "It's quite round here!"


Oh well; Happy Thanksgiving.


Is that you Mark??


.
post #5836 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I would not get your hopes up. As Gary already mentioned there is about a 1% chance of this happening. I would be shocked if the info that nightbreed is spreading is accurate (pleasantly shocked as I would LOVE to have this feature).

.............and the definitive answer is?
post #5837 of 8828
I am afraid it is no. Which is too bad. Gary - still please tell your product managers that lens memory will be worth more than 3D to some. It's one of the reasons I am still considering Epson 21000 (EH-R2000).
post #5838 of 8828
Just got in and checked the thread after being away and am delighted about the shipment notifications.

What a Thanksgiving. My father passed on Sept 28th and my brother and I drove to Wv from Alabama (12 hours ) to pick up an old 87 S-10 TRUCK AND A 78 MODEL LAWN TRACTOR. I only wanted these because my dad really loved them. Well half way home (TN) The trucks transmission let go and had to leave it in a motel lot with the tractor in the bed. Now at 5am I am going back 320 miles each way to get the tractor. I am lucky that there in a salvage yard withing 8 miles of the truck that will take it.

Hope all of you had a better Holiday than me.
post #5839 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

...Putting the glasses in front of the camcorder was I guess an attempt to show the change in brightness...

Keep in mind that even in that case, it may not give a good idea of that relative to 2D mode because it was reported here that the light output in 3D mode is reduced from 2D mode even before the glasses are added to the mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

Ron,

I think the consensus is around 200 lumens through the glasses with a new lamp, short throw. Cine4home and Petri both reported this figure.

Yes that's what I've gathered here too. I run at mid throw. So if the 200 lumen best case scenario holds, that may mean around 150 or so lumens with a new bulb at mid throw, and maybe around 100 lumens on a bulb with a few hundred hours. Maybe we are missing something here? It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
post #5840 of 8828
The X7 YouTube presentation video sure looked impressive though. Looks razor sharp, with good colors and skin tones (at least on my monitor). I was surprised at just how good this looked as a recording of a projected image. I guess their camera was HD? Anyway it was encouraging. The image actually looked rather bright overall. Not so much though once they put the glasses in front. Looks to be an incredible 2D performer with 3D TBD, as someone mentioned above. Having recently got addicted to the brightness and sharpness of a Samsung plasma TV, my RS20 looks rather boring now in comparison (granted the bulb is rather dim). But if this YouTube video is any indication the RS50 may be able to get me excited about front projection again.
post #5841 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemat View Post

I am afraid it is no. Which is too bad. Gary - still please tell your product managers that lens memory will be worth more than 3D to some. It's one of the reasons I am still considering Epson 21000 (EH-R2000).

That is a shame (I am guessing you have this information from a JVC source?)....lens memory for Zoom, H & V shift, focus & iris position is a must in my next JVC purchase (current projector HD750/RS20).......and of course a Laser light source!!
post #5842 of 8828
No, I don't have any info. I am taking Gary's 99% no as no....
post #5843 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

If Grampa's screen's real image brightness is ~ 45 fL, then the 3D figure should be in the ballpark of 9 fL, right? That should be sufficient brightness if he has good light control.

Thanks Ron. Happy Thanksgiving y'all!

Thanks to several of you for the input. I did look at the calculator on ProjectorCentral, using the 1.4 - 2.8 throw range of several existing JVC models to determine that the projected image size of the RS-40 could work in my space. It was a little more difficult to know which JVC model to use in the calculator when evaluating brightness. As you said, the manufacturer's ANSI lumens rating is not a reliable guide. According to the calculator, 45 fL or even greater would not be unreasonable for 2D in my setup. Where I am really at sea is in determining what is needed for 3D. I understand that the glasses and possibly even 3D mode itself might cut the brightness, but does 3D cause the brightness to go from 45 fL to 9 fL? Is that an 80% drop in perceived brightness? How bright does 3D need to be to be watchable?

I do not have a preconceived notion of how bright an image should be. The only 3D I have seen has been in movie theaters. I am upgrading my projector because it has some problems and is getting dim, so I'm certain the RS-40 will be a big improvement. But it would be nice if the 3D picture of the RS-40 is at least as bright as the fading 2D picture of my current projector.
post #5844 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

Just got in and checked the thread after being away and am delighted about the shipment notifications.

What a Thanksgiving. My father passed on Sept 28th and my brother and I drove to Wv from Alabama (12 hours ) to pick up an old 87 S-10 TRUCK AND A 78 MODEL LAWN TRACTOR. I only wanted these because my dad really loved them. Well half way home (TN) The trucks transmission let go and had to leave it in a motel lot with the tractor in the bed. Now at 5am I am going back 320 miles each way to get the tractor. I am lucky that there in a salvage yard withing 8 miles of the truck that will take it.

Hope all of you had a better Holiday than me.


Man... I'm really sorry for your loss buddy! Talk about pouring salt in the wound. wow.
post #5845 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

The X7 YouTube presentation video sure looked impressive though. Looks razor sharp, with good colors and skin tones (at least on my monitor). I was surprised at just how good this looked as a recording of a projected image. I guess their camera was HD? Anyway it was encouraging. The image actually looked rather bright overall. Not so much though once they put the glasses in front. Looks to be an incredible 2D performer with 3D TBD, as someone mentioned above. Having recently got addicted to the brightness and sharpness of a Samsung plasma TV, my RS20 looks rather boring now in comparison (granted the bulb is rather dim). But if this YouTube video is any indication the RS50 may be able to get me excited about front projection again.

From first tests in France (not final versions of projectors), it is exact that the contrast is good but it is not better than previous JVC projectors.
See also the review: http://www.cinemotion.biz/noticia_de...=1165&ccat_n=0
post #5846 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grampa View Post

Thanks to several of you for the input. I did look at the calculator on ProjectorCentral, using the 1.4 - 2.8 throw range of several existing JVC models to determine that the projected image size of the RS-40 could work in my space. It was a little more difficult to know which JVC model to use in the calculator when evaluating brightness. As you said, the manufacturer's ANSI lumens rating is not a reliable guide. According to the calculator, 45 fL or even greater would not be unreasonable for 2D in my setup. Where I am really at sea is in determining what is needed for 3D. I understand that the glasses and possibly even 3D mode itself might cut the brightness, but does 3D cause the brightness to go from 45 fL to 9 fL? Is that an 80% drop in perceived brightness? How bright does 3D need to be to be watchable?

I do not have a preconceived notion of how bright an image should be. The only 3D I have seen has been in movie theaters. I am upgrading my projector because it has some problems and is getting dim, so I'm certain the RS-40 will be a big improvement. But it would be nice if the 3D picture of the RS-40 is at least as bright as the fading 2D picture of my current projector.

In a nearly totally dark room levels as low as 3 or 4 FL are considered adequate, but perhaps not ideal, for viewing 3D. Many commercial movie theaters go this low for 3D presentations when the loss thru the 3D glasses are considered. If you can get 8 to 10FL for 3D viewing then you will be much better off than most of us. THX in certifying the new JVC RS50 and RS60 models for 3D mode recommends the screen size (diagonal for a 16 x 9 projected image) be limited to 90 inches max if the screen gain is 1.0. Your setup if fully consistent with that recommendation, but you will need to keep the room dark for 3D viewing (think movie theater dark for ideal 3D viewing).
post #5847 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grampa View Post

Thanks to several of you for the input. I did look at the calculator on ProjectorCentral, using the 1.4 - 2.8 throw range of several existing JVC models to determine that the projected image size of the RS-40 could work in my space. It was a little more difficult to know which JVC model to use in the calculator when evaluating brightness. As you said, the manufacturer's ANSI lumens rating is not a reliable guide. According to the calculator, 45 fL or even greater would not be unreasonable for 2D in my setup. Where I am really at sea is in determining what is needed for 3D. I understand that the glasses and possibly even 3D mode itself might cut the brightness, but does 3D cause the brightness to go from 45 fL to 9 fL? Is that an 80% drop in perceived brightness? How bright does 3D need to be to be watchable?

I do not have a preconceived notion of how bright an image should be. The only 3D I have seen has been in movie theaters. I am upgrading my projector because it has some problems and is getting dim, so I'm certain the RS-40 will be a big improvement. But it would be nice if the 3D picture of the RS-40 is at least as bright as the fading 2D picture of my current projector.

Will you be happy with the brightness of 3D images on your screen? Until production units are tested I don't know that anyone can provide more than a SWAG. We need to know how many lumens the projectors are pumping out in 3D mode and what is the light-loss from the glasses. It looks like the first units will be delivered soon so hopefully it won't be too long before there are more definitive answers to your questions.
post #5848 of 8828
Is there a THX mode in 2D on the RS40? Or is it limited to the 50/60.
post #5849 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerfan33 View Post

Is there a THX mode in 2D on the RS40? Or is it limited to the 50/60.

THX is on the 50/60 only.
post #5850 of 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryB_UK View Post

THX is on the 50/60 only.

Did you hear back about the lens memory Gary? I assume the answer is NO, but confirmation would be great
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