Once Upon A Time In America - Page 4

I'm not sweating that too much. We're talking about a four-hours-plus movie; I'd be utterly shocked if they didn't split it across two discs for the BD release on general principle. My worry is still with whomever will handle the transfer/mastering for home video, since last I knew Warner still had distribution rights; then again, considering the unique nature of the Redux version, it might get farmed out to a smaller outfit (dare I hope, delay and all, for a 30th Anniversary Criterion or Kino release?).

at these point, seems pretty clear that it will be only one BD. They never answered about that via email, plus on some preorders shop there is written 1 disk....

I suspect that that listing, wherever it was, was for the original BD release--we're nowhere near even getting an announcement for OUATIA/R coming to BD, let alone a release date. That said, it is possible that someone at Warner is already thinking "Hell, Lawrence of Arabia was on one disc. We can beat that!" (The 30th Anniversary aspect might be the one thing that stops them in that regard, though I'm not sure if they'd go full-tilt UCE on this either.)

Well, that's very interesting: an Italian BD release of the Redux version snuck under the radar, and it's single-disc to boot (which apparently led to mixed results as per the screenshots in this review). Depending on whether or not further restoration (i.e. the supposedly still-missing 15m or so) is indeed coming, this could be a strange stopgap item...assuming it's not region locked, that is.

Smells like a poor rush-job by some small, local outfit. Hopefully the "real" international Warner release will look better even if it's not two discs, 17Mbps shouldn't look that bad. Considering the source material for the additional scenes I think it would be nice to have an option to watch it without them too.

Compression aside, the restoration seems to look real nice. Looking forward to watching it in 2K projection.

Heh...contextual flub on my part, dvdmike. I was referring to your post, though somehow I completely missed that you had mentioned the Italian BD on the last page.

As for said disc: I'm still ambivalent about the apparent quality going off the screenshots I've seen, though I think 42041 might be on to something with the compression bit. But I also can't help thinking "Well, it could still look a lot worse."

Oh, you've seen this BD50 have you? Please, tell us all about it with as much screaming detail as you can muster. Oh, sorry, I forgot - you haven't seen it. When you do, do report back. I should have it in a few days.

I'm not picking a fight, I am stating a fact. Having eyes is great - seeing an actual Blu-ray disc is probably preferable. The length of the movie should not be a problem on a BD50 - if you don't know that then you don't know about Blu-ray discs. I cannot and will not say whether the compression is well done until I see the actual disc. Then I can make an informed post about it. I think at this point in time it's the same five people on various boards who always do this screen caps game. Others have learned it's not a good game to play. This is a film I love. Funnily, the first time I saw it, on its opening day in Hollywood at the Vogue Theater - first showing - it was, of course, the shortened two hour and twenty-minute version. At that point in time not many people knew it had been re-cut. I think I did, but can't really remember for sure. Well, I loved the film, even in that form (I kind of wish they'd include it as an extra - I still have a Betamax of the short version and while it's clearly not so hot, it does elicit a different emotional response in certain ways from having it chronological), and I saw it twice more during the week it played.

Then I began reading all about what had happened and was drooling to see that, and was there at a screening just before the official release of the long version. I loved that, too, and saw it many times. Having watched some of the newly-reinserted scenes, I'm not all that sure Mr. Leone would be thrilled to have them back in. He shot the script, as all directors do. And then they find the film in the editing room. I don't know any movie that has put in every scene shot exactly as shot. They find the rhythm of the film and in so doing scenes get cut and scenes should get cut if their not helping the film. When I watch the awkward De Niro and Louise Fletcher scene, it seems "improvised" in the worst way (and it was - I have the script) and it's clear why it was cut. I also understand that at some point Leone was thinking about airing all of it on Italian television, but I firmly believe the long version is what he wanted filmgoers to see. So, I will be very interested to see this version when it arrives in a week or so, and I will report back on compression issues or lack thereof at that time. Again, there should be NO problem whatsoever putting this film on a BD50 just as there was no problem with Lawrence of Arabia. There are no real extras so there is plenty of room. If they compressed it poorly that is a different matter and we shall see when I watch the MOTION picture.

Now I don't speak Italian, but when I hear "grosso problema", "compressione", and "artefatti" within the same sentence I get the feeling it's not just a screencap issue.
Putting a 4hr+ movie on one disc is just cutting corners, you can't compress a grainy, detailed movie in 1.85:1 to bitrates in the teens and still have transparent compression quality.

That is correct. Even with the best h264 encoders and segment reencoding detailed 1080p from a new 4K scan of 35mm material will suffer with average bit rates below 20 Mbit/s. Suffer means losing real detail and adding compression noise and smoothing, not necessarily looking bad or showing in real time obvious problems like blocking. The degradation is gradual and not so obvious without the master for comparison as long as the average bit rates remain "high enough" (for average material that would be in the +- 15-20 Mbit/s range). With more efficient new codecs the numbers are moved again, but grain with its random nature sets hard limits that can not be overcome.

Is H.265 ready yet?

I'll admit it, I'm too lazy to look. What label is responsible for this IT crapfest of a BD? Did Warner Bros. release it?

I think you know my point - but I'll say it again - do you see compression problems in the BD50 of Lawrence of Arabia? I don't. Again, haven't seen this so maybe it's a complete botch job but I will NOT say that based on looking at a screen cap, especially as screen caps can be taken and posted completely improperly.

I have only seen parts of LOA on Blu Ray. Average is 22 Mbit/s. That is enough to make it difficult to see compression problems in real time without the uncompressed master for comparison. I have not seen compression problems in real time. I see compression problems on LOA easily when stepping from frame to frame. That is normal and expected when compressing so much as is done on Blu Ray. It's not a problem in real time when compression is well done. The required bit rate is strongly correlated with the amount of random noise due to grain and electronic noise and also with the amount of real world fine detail and high frequency content (whether grain/noise is mixed in there or not).

Dream all you want. 4 plus hours on 1 Bluray is high teens and mostly garbage on most sets in that aspect ratio. Dream on. It's almost like people forget how big the actual source is when they try to convince themselves this is going to be a stellar release.

Who has tried to convince themselves that this is going to be a stellar release? Point out one post because I must have missed that. What a few have said is that they have no idea how those screencaps were done and will, rather intelligently, wait to see the disc before making with the pronouncements. Then an informed post can be made. What exactly is hard to understand about that?

I was the guy who was expecting this to be spread across two discs, though with the Italian release crammed onto one disc that certainty took a hit. Then again, for all we know any subsequent releases of the Redux version could include special features (a BTS segment on the restoration at a minimum seems like an obvious addition) and that could well force WB to push this into two-disc territory.

I wouldn't mind a digibook release, if and when it comes to it. That said, I also want a pony.

Me, too!


You're on your own, there.

Disc came today. So, now I have seen the first forty-five minutes and I can speak having actually seen the thing. And I'm here to tell you, compression is the least of it - spreading this transfer over five discs would not help it. Why? Because it IS a complete botch job of the film called Once Upon a Time in America. Mr. Leone and Mr. Delli Colli would be fuming if they saw what their beautiful film has been turned into. I saw this film seven times in its short version and about seventeen times in its long version, and owned a stunning LPP 35mm print of it. The photography is stunning. You would not know that from this new restoration. I have no idea what the new prints or DCP look like, I can only go on what this Blu-ray looks like and it looks like crap.

There is no contrast - just milk. The detail is blah. Worst of all (but I know it won't be bothersome to those on this board because color problems never are) - the color. Awful. What a joke. Want to see the correct color and contrast, just pop in the old Warner Blu-ray and you'll see it perfectly because that's exactly what the prints looked like in terms of color and contrast. I find it hard to believe I'm saying this, but there is far more detail in the Warners Blu-ray than this sorry mess. You see it right from the first shot and it gets worse as you go. When it goes to Fat Moe being beaten to a pulp his blood is - brown. Not vivid red - brown. His hair, which is red - is brown. Then you go to the Chinese theater and gone are all the shadings and the beautiful reds and golds, rendered here lifeless and blah. Then you get to the scene in the rain where Noodles' buddies have been shot down. There's a fire truck. Brown. Fire trucks are not brown. Then you to to the scene in the station and see that beautiful, stunning Coney Island mural - hard to make that blah, and yet... Then Noodles comes back older and the mural is now the big apple of the Big Apple. What color is an apple? Well, in this instance it should be bright red - it's brown and hardly bright. And so it goes. I put them side by side and there's no question that even if you don't like the bitrate of the original Blu-ray, if you want a Once Upon a Time in America that actually looks as it should, that's the only choice right now. I fear for watching the rest of this thing, but since none of the additional footage has appeared yet, I'll mush on just to see how all that works.

A complete failure.

That bad, huh?
I'm not familiar with the look of the film on 35mm, but here's the official line:
"The most demanding and delicate phase of the restoration was without doubt the color correction, working to recreate the sooty and smoky atmosphere of the ‘20s and ‘30s and
the colder, more pallid atmosphere of the late ‘60s. As a reference in this phase, Martin Scorsese’s own positive copy - conserved at MoMA, New York - was fundamental, as were the contributions of numerous people who worked on the original production and lent their experiences and memories of working on Leone’s set to the restoration process."