I heard that if you have a newer TV, you could get a DVD recorder without a tuner...

Very few TVs have outputs that may be recorded by a DVD recorder. The few that had that feature were last built four or five years ago. Good luck trying to find a more recent model with that feature.

Satellite receivers and cable converter boxes tune and convert scrambled signals into unscrambled signals and map them to locations (they refer to as "channels") according to the providers' own numbering scheme.

These provider devices have several outputs. Those device outputs that can be recorded by DVD recorders are the analog S-Video, composite video (yellow) and the RF coax cable. The S-Video and composite yellow video also require the white/red audio connections.

Tunerless DVD recorders can record from the S-Video and composite (yellow) plus the white/red audio outputs of cable converter boxes and satellite receivers connected to the corresponding line inputs on the DVD recorder.

Cable converter boxes and satellite receivers also have analog component video outputs (blue, green, red) also requiring the white/red audio outputs, as well as digital HDMI outputs for connection to High Definition TVs. These component and HDMI outputs can not be recorded with recent and current DVD recorders as they do not have those inputs.

Some cable providers still provide some local programming, government, shopping and a few other services "in the clear" (non-scrambled). Those signals are present on the raw coax cable feed. Those signals may be tuned by TVs and DVD recorders equipped with clear QAM tuners. Most cable providers are in process of scrambling most of their programming in order to "sell customers up" to converter box rentals. For this reason "clear QAM" is on it's way to becoming obsolete.

All satellite provider signals are scrambled, requiring the use of the satellite providers' receivers.

There are just a few third party equipment providers, e.g. Tivo, Moxi, that require a CableCard or similar card provided (rented) by a service provider. Tivo and Moxi devices are expensive to purchase and require a subscription.

After 1 March 2007 TVs and tuner-equipped DVD recorders manufactured for sale in the USA are required by law to have ATSC tuners for reception of digital broadcast stations received through an antenna.

I'm not familiar with specialty DiSH installations, but your arrangement sounds pretty bizarre. If you don't have a decoder box in the room with the television, how do you change channels? Is there some sort of remote control whole-house networking thing where TVs in multiple rooms hook up to one central multi-tuner box?

Whatever the case, as DigaDo said the days of television sets that could pass thru whatever signal was onscreen to another device have passed. Everything today is HDMI. I was recently very annoyed when my parents picked up a brand new Samsung 40" without consulting me beforehand: the damn thing has five HDMI ports but just ONE ordinary composite (video-audioL-audioR) input and no composite outputs at all. Since they have three "obsolete" devices that need a composite input to play on the TV, they are now screwed until I can rig up some kind of switchbox (not ideal for quality or convenience).

You will probably need to do something similar. Look at the back of your TV and note what kind of connection is feeding the DiSH signal to the TV: is it an antenna-type coax cable, the triple-wire video-audioL-audioR, or a tiny HDMI cable? If its one of the first two, you can get a splitter so the incoming line can feed both the TV and a recorder. But if its HDMI, no joy: one of the primary design goals of HDMI was that it NOT be recordable, so no recorders have been or will be made with HDMI inputs. Unless your TV has both HDMI input *and* composite line outputs, you're out of luck unless you can get DiSH to come rework that room hookup to accommodate a recorder.

When I've tried to hook up a recorder directly from the Dish receiver's 2nd tuner output in another room, I got a black screen.

The signal is modulated, and the TV has to be on a certain channel in order to tune it in (you can go into the Dish menu to see what channel it is - it can also be changed).

I tried to tune the recorder to that channel, but I still got a black screen. Now, normally, with the 1st tuner's output, you'd have to first go into the Dish menu to turn on the "enable output to external tuner" setting (which is how I'm able to record from it over s-video to my Panasonic EH75V recorder). When I went into the 2nd tuner's menu (at the second TV that it was being sent to), that area was blanked out in the menu. So I don't know for sure if it was the recorder not being able to modulate the signal, or the fact that I couldn't "enable" the output, like you have to do with tuner #1.

Either way, I couldn't get it to work. All I can say I know for sure is that if the recorder has no tuner at all, there's no way it can work, unless you've got some kind of modulator in-between (and the Dish tuner's 2nd output can't be set on a channel lower than somewhere around 22, I think - so no easy out to a common, cheapo modulator on channel 3/4).

You can try your own recorder with a tuner (as it could've just been the recorder for some other reason than the signal not being modulated), but buy it from somewhere where it's easy to return it, like Sam's Club, or somewhere like that.

The only way I can think of that you'd be able to use a tunerless recorder is if your TV had A/V out, and you hooked it up to that.

(And guys - for future reference, whenever you hear a poster say he "has Dish in his room" without a tuner", you can almost assuredly expect it's the modulated 2nd tuner output from one of their "dual-tuners", like I described above. I have their dual, SD tuner, the 322, and also, their DVR's and non-DVR, HD, 222 dual-tuner, have that ability, too).

I suppose there could be some kind of possibility that they don't make recording from the second tuner possible, to thwart people that use the 2nd tuner's output in the main room to record from - meaning having two-tuner capabilities and not having to rent their DVR to get that - bit then, why would it still be able to output a picture to the TV at all? Can they do that with the software? That's why I thought maybe the recorder just couldn't modulate it (but the TV can). Can a DVD recorder normally do that? I'm not sure, because I've never used mine that way. If not, can you buy an affordable modulator that would work?

Actually I'm surprised it had a composite input, a while ago I was looking at for small tabletop LCD and liked the Samsungs but many didn't have a yellow composite input, let alone my favorite S-video. As you said they had many HDMIs, a VGA, DVI and component, but no composite I passed on the Sammy and got a LG that still only had one component and composite , Monoprice has several nice remote controlled composite and component switchers for <$20, I bought one of each.

Some TVs have now combined the composite input into one of the component inputs. The green input is the one that takes the yellow composite plug. I know some Mitsubishis have them, and I think someone said some of the Samsungs are the same.

S-video inputs have largely gone the way of the Dodo, except for maybe on some higher end receivers that do upconversion to HDMI.

I did see a few TVs that had the shared composite/component input, but they usually state that on the back near the plug, the Sammy didn't. Besides I still wouldn't like that configuration, I use both composite and component and sharing the same plug would complicate things. It is something to check for though, I think a Vizio I looked at had that configuration.

Hmmmmmm. I got a little 19" Toshiba LCD back in December, and it has a pretty decent array of "backward compatible" inputs. I specifically wanted it to be able to provide monitor capabilities for VCRs, DVDRs, etc. I thought the "HDMI only" trap was a ways off in the future. Guess not.

The ordinary civilians in the gen pop fell hook, line, and sinker for HDMI's easy one-cord hookup.

The Man'll shut us down one way or another, by gum!!

A few days ago I looked at small 24-inch tuner-less Samsung and all it had was one HDMI, one DVI and one VGA input, no component. To be honest, I'm looking at replacing a computer monitor and for that purpose it's fine and I may still pick one up.

I do dread the day I'll need to replace the CRT TV I use for DVDR, and tape viewing.

Jeepers! Can ya imagine the shipping costs for vintage, multiple composite/S-video input CRT TVs on eBay in a few years!?

I'm taking good care of the 19" Sony WEGA CRT, [b]with[b] component video input, I shelled out 350 hard-earneds for in 2002. (Shortly before I'd taken something like a 40% pay cut, so that was serious money at the time.)

I just hope the receiver makers keep putting some legacy inputs on their upconverting/upscaling/whateveryoucallit units. I can live with HDMI only TVs that way. I know that doesn't work for everyone.

Onkyo had been dropping S-video from their lower end receivers (TX-SR607, 707, etc.) and I was sure the new 808 and the higher ones would drop it, but they kept it.